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Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Cyborg] #791847 12/02/19 1:01 pm
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You may end up like Magnetoman.. hiding under the sheets at night with a flashlight and tool catalogs.[/quote]


The great thing about descending into MMan's large man-cave is that there is nothing the least bit surreptitious about it. Except, perhaps, the number of motorcycles ("A new one? No, honey, that was under a blue tarp hidden behind the Sunnen hone before") Oh, and the Sunnen hone itself ("It's an old second-hand, disused, yard-sale Sunnen hone with all attachments, honey") And the other machinery and tool chests. Where it does get a little sketchy are the small cabinets with small drawers, each of which holds, for example, a tap, and its corresponding drill bit. Every tap that you might ever need.

Now I'm not saying that MMan doesn't hide under the sheets at night with a flashlight, but from what I understand, he is researching inappropriate motorcycles to buy for his grand-daughters (his daughters being big enough to buy their own).

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Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Cyborg] #791851 12/02/19 2:05 pm
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Originally Posted by Cyborg
It is a slippery slope buying a lathe... all those tools and attachments that go with it.
It's a gateway tool.
Hey kid, wanna try a lathe?. First one's free.


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Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791854 12/02/19 2:59 pm
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Thread successfully derailed then..

Actually, my late father bought a half-way decent lathe, when he was about my age, though I ran off and joined the airfare about that time. Only on trips back to my parents did I start to get an inkling of it's operations nd make of few small odds and ends, so I'm not totally illiterate! I just know wneough to be a danger to myself! Since I live 8000 miles from said lathe, on my father's passing it went on loan to an old friend with experience and proper machinery qualifications: this may soon come to an end too, as the friend (A Triumph-riding philistine) is likely to soon move house to a retirement village, where having a largish lathe might be considered inappropriate.

Oddly, in recent months, I have been spying small lates and mills on eBay to get my purchasing eye in for possible retirement projects... I thought I was done with BSA's, but recently bought a few little gems, in anticipation..

Here we go again, then...


No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
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Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: NYBSAGUY] #791863 12/02/19 5:16 pm
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Where it does get a little sketchy are the small cabinets with small drawers, each of which holds, for example, a tap, and its corresponding drill bit. Every tap that you might ever need.

I’m afraid that I have to object to that statement. I also have (don’t recall how many at the moment) small cabinets with small drawers full of taps and dies. I do have to confess that I’m a bit of a slob though. None of them contain the appropriate drill bit. For that I have to run upstairs, look up the drill size and then run back down to the drill bit shelf. A normal person would at least have the chart on the wall. As for having every tap he might need..... I didn’t think that was possible. I have shitloads of them and still seem to be buying them on a regular basis. There has to be some obscure law of nature that prevents you from having a full set. Furthermore... if MM led you to believe he has a full set, he’s delusional. Wait till he drags that Shadow out of boxes.

Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791865 12/02/19 5:49 pm
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Originally Posted by Cyborg
if MM led you to believe he has a full set, he’s delusional.
I won't deny being delusional, but I'm in pretty good shape where taps and dies are concerned. Those cabinet drawers NYBSA guy referred to only contain A/F sizes from 2-56 up to 1/2", with two compartments in each drawer (except for the largest sizes, where separate drawers are needed) each holding a half dozen coarse and fine taps with their associated drill bits. I use A/F fairly regularly when fabricating things so this makes work go faster. Taps and dies that I use less frequently, like BA, CEI, BSF, BSW, BSPP, etc. are in a larger drawer in a toolbox, but for those I have to refer to charts hanging from my milling machine to identify the appropriate drill bits. An appendix in 'Know thy Beast' lists every size of fastener on the machines of a certain lesser marque, including "uncommon" ones, like 9/32x40 Model Engineers. I have taps and dies for all of those up to 5/8", as well as all the LH taps used by BSA (e.g. on the front axle). So, delusional? Or OCD? Or both?...

Originally Posted by Cyborg
You may end up like Magnetoman.. hiding under the sheets at night with a flashlight and tool catalogs.
Some years ago, as we walked into the hallway after having shown him the physics research lab I had assembled, a Russian scientist observed that With your equipment there are no secrets Mother Nature can keep from you." I don't know what the equivalent comment would be for a garage, but my approach to assembling it has been the same. However, my goal was more modest than it was with my lab. It's not like I aimed to have the best motorcycle shop of its kind in the world, just the best one west of the Mississippi (before anyone jumps in to dispute that, the in-house ability to machine, weld, magnetize, Magnaflux, electroplate, precisely measure physically, microscopically and electrically, etc. isn't that common). I admit, achieving that has involved spending quality time with tool catalogs from time to time.

As for lathes (and milling machines, and mandrels for Sunnens, and...), like crack cocaine it's not the price of the initial purchase, it's the subsequent addiction. It's not like I got a bargain when I bought my lathe, but I have spent roughly 3x more for tooling for it than the initial cost. That's partially (or largely...) because if there's a special attachment I don't have for any of the machinery, it's only because I don't know such a piece exists despite all those nights under the sheets with tool catalogs. Some of that tooling certainly doesn't get used very much, but when I need it, I have it. Luckily, I've been able to find much of that tooling over time on eBay where its uncommon nature typically has resulted in few bidders and (relatively) low prices.

My "comprehensive" approach to equipping a motorcycle shop is highlighted by a recent example. The issue of asbestos in motorcycle components became of no small concern because of a major project I'm involved with, along with Australia's total ban of the import of asbestos-containing items that they started to strictly enforce as of about two years ago. A 5-page document dated 2019 from their Border Force points out that "A 'face value' letter from the supplier, or the supplier's mechanic, merely stating there is no asbestos content is unlikely to provide sufficient assurance." Elsewhere in that document it says "This highlights the necessity for the owner to know the vehicle they are importing, to understand where asbestos is likely to be present, and to be able to provide evidence of having addressed that risk."

Border Force accepts asbestos tests "carried out to meeting Australian requirements for laboratory reporting." Those requirements accept analysis using a specialized polarized microscopic technique called 'dispersion staining'. I already had the microscope and, thanks to eBay, my shop now has the necessary dispersion staining objective and high dispersion refractive index liquids at considerably less cost than either retails for new. To paraphrase my Russian colleague, with my equipment there are no secrets a motorcycle can keep from me...


Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791874 12/02/19 8:00 pm
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Bought my lathe thirty plus years ago, prior to that I used to machine things at work, under the bench as they say. Few days pass when it is not used,albeit for the simplest of things.
But yes the machine it's self is only half the story, without tooling you won't get far. As they say buy a lathe and have a thousand friends. (Can you just)


Brian

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Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791878 12/02/19 8:22 pm
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Well at least you didn’t list a gas chromatograph!
Back to my hone deficiency for a moment. I was able to lap a big end to fit as described in the scriptures. No doubt I spent more time farting around test fitting/measuring etc that I would have if I owned a Sunnen hone and actually knew how to use it. The local guru told me how to go about it, at least the basic concept. He hones the big end of the rod first, because they are all egg shaped. Once round, he takes an oversize outer race and grinds it down to fit. Once pressed in the ID of the race is honed. I confess that I skipped the first part and just pressed in the off the shelf Alfa race. Reasonably close to round when pressed in and completely round when done lapping on my Rube Goldberg lathe attachment. I suspect that even pressing a round race into a lesser round rod causes it to go slightly egg shaped again simply because of its design. Anyway perhaps not perfect, but I couldn’t find any reason to question it’s longevity. With some harassment from a couple of curmudgeons over at the LBF (lesser bike forum) I was able to get the crank surprisingly close. For extra insurance I made the belly pan is large enough to contain any shrapnel. Where am I going with this drivel you ask..

Did you actually get the Sunnen arbor attached to your lathe?

As for the speed of the Sunnen hone, does that have more to do with surface finish or the time required to remove material.? Perhaps both? Perhaps a dumb question? Within reason, I wouldn’t have thought speed would be that critical for a bearing race. Honing cylinders to get the proper finish...well that’s a different discussion

Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: DBDBrian] #791879 12/02/19 8:55 pm
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Originally Posted by DBDBrian
Bought my lathe thirty plus years ago, prior to that I used to machine things at work, under the bench as they say. Few days pass when it is not used,albeit for the simplest of things.
But yes the machine it's self is only half the story, without tooling you won't get far. As they say buy a lathe and have a thousand friends. (Can you just)


It really does surprise me how much I use it and yes usually for simple things. I did manage to carve out a steering stem a few weeks ago, so once in a while doing something that requires threads and some precision. That’s when the wear in the bed becomes evident and makes me yearn for something more modern. Then there is the size. Always wishing I could swing something lager. I had a 1 3/8 x 9’ prop shaft in there the other day. Waiting for my dearly departed brother (who I inherited the lathe and mill from) to send a lightning bolt my way.

Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791885 12/02/19 9:58 pm
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Originally Posted by Cyborg
Well at least you didn’t list a gas chromatograph!
Hey, I'm a physicist, not a chemist, so I use my home-built portable Raman spectrometer when I need to identify chemical compositions.

Originally Posted by Cyborg
With some harassment from a couple of curmudgeons over at the LBF (lesser bike forum)
I either missed that, or your posts were long enough ago that I've forgotten.

Originally Posted by Cyborg
Did you actually get the Sunnen arbor attached to your lathe?
I don't remember what I needed it for on my Ariel (small end bush?), but I never made an adapter for my lathe. I must have solved the problem some other way, such as using a rasp instead...

Originally Posted by Cyborg
As for the speed of the Sunnen hone, does that have more to do with surface finish or the time required to remove material.? Perhaps both?
It's both. A low rpm makes the job longer but it also affects the finish. You don't just slow a lathe with a large part to keep the surface speed under control so it doesn't send glowing embers flying into your hair, turning a piece too slowly also affects the surface roughness.

Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791894 12/02/19 11:51 pm
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Wow, I go out of town for a few days and the train derails.

My thought process was given that the outer race just dropped into the case there must be a bit of clearance so 0.003 would maybe give me something close to 0.002 for the interference when installed. This is the non lipped timing side roller that could be lapped.

However this thread was about the drive side roller bearings I have and the question was what clearance do they have based on the markings on them. They are all 65-1388 non lipped bearings. One was provided by Len Haggis in the UK so I would think that it is the correct bearing.

Gordo


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791947 12/03/19 3:37 pm
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Originally Posted by Gordo in Comox
Wow, I go out of town for a few days and the train derails.
However this thread was about the drive side roller bearings I have and the question was what clearance do they have based on the markings on them
In our collective defense, I thought we had answered your question before we went off piste.

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Cyborg
With some harassment from a couple of curmudgeons over at the LBF (lesser bike forum)
I either missed that, or your posts were long enough ago that I've forgotten.
Having now found your thread on the LBF, in my own defense you only started it very recently (2017), it only has accumulated very few posts since then (barely filling 29 pages), and as I write this it has been completely inactive for fully 31 minutes.

Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791950 12/03/19 4:15 pm
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MM: I concede that with a 65+ year old thrashed engine there is most likely no way to really know what will work until the bearings are installed and tested. I appreciate all the advice that has been offered but my shop is not equipped do make all of the sophisticated measurements mentioned by the experts so I am into the trial and error method. I shall press ahead with the knowledge that the races can be lapped if the bearing is too tight.

Gordo


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791962 12/03/19 6:49 pm
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Originally Posted by Gordo in Comox
MM: I concede that with a 65+ year old thrashed engine there is most likely no way to really know what will work until the bearings are installed and tested. I appreciate all the advice that has been offered but my shop is not equipped do make all of the sophisticated measurements mentioned by the experts so I am into the trial and error method. I shall press ahead with the knowledge that the races can be lapped if the bearing is too tight.

Gordo



I am far from being the resident expert on roller bearings.... if fact, count me as being totally ignorant on the subject. I spent most of my life dealing with Japanese shell bearings where life is much simpler. The C3 bearing thing is interesting. Basically if the outer race isn’t the correct interference fit in the case then a C3 isn’t necessary. It’s a bit of a conundrum and I believe that lapping is the best way to go.. which complicates things somewhat. It’s a rabbit hole for sure... but then again, are you building a race engine or something you want to last 100k miles. When dealing with these engines, we need to do things right, but at some point you have to call off the chase for perfection. MM may have a saying for that.

On a side note, I think some of the C3 bearings supplied through the lesser brand spares company are regular bearings that were sent off somewhere to be honed/lapped out to C3, so you couldn’t really guarantee what you needed to know was stamped on the race. I also found that there wasn’t much of a bevel on the outer race so when installing the case half it was very difficult to get the case/race over the rollers. I used some fine, but extremely strong thread (of a known length) and wrapped it around the rollers. The two ends ran out and down through the small end of the rod and were connected to a weight. This kept the rollers snug against the inner race allowing the case to slid on without drama . Two small spacers between the cases kept them apart while I pulled one end of the thread to unwind it from the rollers. Checked the length of the thread to make sure nothing was left in there.

Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Magnetoman] #791966 12/03/19 7:11 pm
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Cyborg
With some harassment from a couple of curmudgeons over at the LBF (lesser bike forum)
I either missed that, or your posts were long enough ago that I've forgotten.
Having now found your thread on the LBF, in my own defense you only started it very recently (2017), it only has accumulated very few posts since then (barely filling 29 pages), and as I write this it has been completely inactive for fully 31 minutes.
[/quote]

That’s not the thread I was thinking of.. and speaking of highjacks, they’re polluting my thread with Ariel stuff. I can’t believe it started in 2017. Time to finish that pile if shite and move on. Anyway the thread I was thinking of is titled “ big end replacement “. I should read it before I do the next one, because my memory sucks and I never learned to follow my father’s advice about taking notes and recording results. I should probably caution you (being a Sunnen hone owner and operator) that the thread contains material that you will find offensive.

Raman spectrometer.. that would be an Indian version of a Japanese noodle maker?

Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791972 12/03/19 7:58 pm
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Originally Posted by Cyborg
at some point you have to call off the chase for perfection. MM may have a saying for that.
Perfect is the enemy of good enough. I have a strong predilection toward perfection so if I can live by this saying, anyone can. The trick, though, is knowing when something is good enough.

Originally Posted by Cyborg
they’re polluting my thread with Ariel stuff.
Ariel? You mean there are people who will actually admit to owning one of those? Amazing.

Originally Posted by Cyborg
Raman spectrometer.. that would be an Indian version of a Japanese noodle maker?
Unfortunately, it's not nearly so tasteful, but it will tell you the chemicals in those noodles.

Originally Posted by Cyborg
On a side note, I think some of the C3 bearings supplied through the lesser brand spares company are regular bearings that were sent off somewhere to be honed/lapped out to C3
I probably posted somewhere on Bribike in the distant past the following notes I made for myself, but it seems worthwhile to repeat it here (note, the lack of any normal logic between the suffix on the 'C' grade and the number of circles either means I've made a mistake, or it is a system devised by the British. You decide):

---------------------------
Radial Internal Clearance (also called Diametrical Clearance)

This is the most important specification since the wrong clearance will mean the difference between an audible engine knock (too loose) and rapid bearing wear (too tight). The current system uses ABEC grades of fit (sometimes listed as AFMBA) that somewhat confusingly are 1, 2, 0, 3, 4, and 5 in order of increasing looseness. Verbal descriptions of some of these fits in a modern Torrington-Fafnir catalog are Snug (2), Medium (0), Loose (3) and Extra Loose (4), with 0 also commonly termed Normal. Note, though, that the allowed range for the clearance of a 2" OD bearing having, for example, a Normal/Medium/0 fit is 0.0003"-0.0011" which overlaps the range for Loose/3 of 0.0009"-0.0017". This means that, although the midrange of these grades differs in clearance by 0.0006", because of manufacturing tolerances it is possible to purchase a "loose" bearing and find it slightly tighter than a "normal" one. The same comment about variation is true for the other grades of fit as well.

As a modern SKF catalog says, "As a general rule, ball bearings should have an operating clearance that is virtually zero." However, "roller bearings, on the other hand, should always have some residual (radial) clearance – however small – in operation." Since installation on a Gold Star involves a press fit of ~0.002" into Al this causes the diameter of the outer track to decrease by approximately 50% of the interference fit (e.g. by ~0.001" if the housing were exactly 0.002" smaller than the bearing). This has to be compensated for by using a bearing having the correct internal clearance prior to installation. The bearings in a Gold Star is a situation where a few ten-thousandths of an inch has a significant effect on performance. If you feel any resistance when turning the inner race after installation the initial clearance was too small and the bearing will fail prematurely in service.

On the original ball and roller bearings used by BSA the clearance was denoted by circles lightly polished on the face of either the inner or outer race that according to a c1964 R&M catalog was "the practice standardised by ball and roller bearing manufacturers in Great Britain." According to a 1968 Skefko (SKF) catalog there is a one-to-one correspondence between the "circle" clearance grades and the "C" grades now used on modern bearings:

C1______ -- _________ Less than C2
C2 ____ one circle ____ Less than normal clearance (such a bearing almost certainly would be too tight once installed in a Gold Star engine)
CN ____ two circles ___ Normal clearance (typically not indicated on a modern bearing; Of the five original engine ball bearings and five original gearbox sleeve gear ball bearings I examined all had two circles)
C3 ____ three circles___ Greater clearance than normal (three circles; this probably would be too loose for a worn Gold Star engine, but could be the correct clearance. Of the four original timing-side roller bearings I examined two had two circles and two had three circles. A 1958 Hoffman catalog says this is "the grade normally employed for roller journal bearings in General Engineering Applications.")
C4 ____ four circles ___ Greater than C3 (not found on a Gold Star engine)
C5 _______ -- _______ Greater than C4

The circles are lightly ground on the stamped face of the outer ring of Hoffmann bearings and on the inner ring of R&M. These circles are very light and can be difficult to see unless inspected closely with a magnifying glass.

----------------------------

Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791976 12/03/19 8:24 pm
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MM: Thanks for the summary

Gordo


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Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791977 12/03/19 8:35 pm
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The Roller bearings supplied with my Pearson crank have double flanged outer race and a single flanged inner race. The rollers remain attached to the outer race


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Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791985 12/03/19 10:01 pm
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This thread has been a very good read all round, especially MMs last post.
It has been mentioned in previous threads that Goldstar roller main bearings MRJA 7/8 and MRJ 1 1/8 are unobtainable, The company listed below, who I have been sourcing bearings from for many years, with excellent service, lists both bearings from high quality manufactures, in both in Std and C3 gradings.
They have a very good web site.

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/ Telephone: 01942 269 837


Brian

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Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #791987 12/03/19 10:26 pm
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Yes thank you for the info MM. I kept a digital copy and paper copies. One in the bearing bin, one in with the lesser brand notes and another in the farm implement file. Increases the odds of me finding it when I need it.

That was the expression I was looking for. I recall you using it sometime in the past. Seems like using the term “good enough “ can be like lightning the blue touch paper. Finding decent machine shops around here can be challenging, so my quest for perfection can be tempered by what tools, equipment, and experience I have. It’s the sort of thing that keeps me awake at night.

Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: DBDBrian] #791992 12/03/19 10:58 pm
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Originally Posted by DBDBrian

It has been mentioned in previous threads that Goldstar roller main bearings MRJA 7/8 and MRJ 1 1/8 are unobtainable,





When I was racing a Gold Star in the '80's I would dismantle the bottom end about every other race and occasionally replace all the bottom end bearings. By the mid '90's the bronze caged RHP MRJ 1 1/8, (no lip), became increasingly hard o come by, not unobtainable but hard to find and very expensive. The substitute was the MRJA 1 1/8, (with lip), that was more readily available as it was used on other British models, mostly twins. Then steel cage MRJ 1 1/8 started showing up. Not sure what is being manufactured now because I still have a couple of the bronze caged ones on the shelf.

On a side note at that time I had a local Gold Star collector approach me in the pits one race day and berate me for using up valuable rare parts. As the French say,"To each his own".


Bill


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Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #792004 12/04/19 12:41 am
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MM, rather than continue high jacking Gordo’s thread, I’m going to high jack my own at the LBF. I checked the plate on the Atlas and don’t believe speed will be an issue for honing. I also believe I have something in my collection of threading instruments that you don’t have. Yes I’m being shallow and suffer from tool envy. I need to bask in my fleeting sense of superiority for a while before you burst my bubble.

Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #792100 Yesterday at 10:23 AM
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Boomer posted
Not sure what is being manufactured now because I still have a couple of the bronze caged ones on the shelf.

I don't know if the bronze cage is superior to steel or not, they certainly look the part, but I have seen one disintegrate, then again the bearing that doesn't wear out hasn't been made yet.


Cyborg Posted
Then there is the size. Always wishing I could swing something larger.

As the thread is alternating between bearings and machine tools, lathes are like sheds, they are never large enough.
I made a pattern and had this alloy hub cast to repair a 190 mm brake. Holding it on the face plate to machine the centre for the cast iron liner took things out to the limit.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Brian

Made In England
Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: DBDBrian] #792105 Yesterday at 03:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,527
Magnetoman Online Content
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Posts: 5,527
Originally Posted by DBDBrian
lathes are like sheds, they are never large enough.
Because of that, sometimes you have to improvise.

I wanted to turn my Ariel's drums while laced to the rims to avoid the possible distortion that the lacing might cause if done after turning them. So, since my lathe couldn't swing something that large, I mounted the wheels horizontally in the vise on my mill (i.e. with the axles accurately parallel with the mill's spindle), and carefully rotated them by hand to avoid tilting, to skim the surfaces. As can be seen, the drums definitely needed to be skimmed. The result was brakes that worked great, with not the slightest hint of an out-of-round judder.

[Linked Image]

The connection to this thread is that both wheels have bearings in them...

p.s. To make this post even more relevant to the thread than it already is, I'll add that I extracted the information for my post of a couple of days ago from "contemporary" 1945-1975 catalogs of Hoffmann, Norma-Hoffmann, R&M, Skefko (SKF) and Torrington, and from "modern" post-1995 catalogs of FAG, INA, MRC, NTN, SKF and Torrington-Fafnir.

R&M formerly Ransome & Marles
R&M, Hoffmann, and Pollard merged to form RHP, later purchased by NSK. The RHP brand is still used by NSK.
SKF formerly Skefko (the name of the UK's SKF subsidiary)
FAG formerly Fischer (stamped F.B.C. on the original bearings)


Last edited by Magnetoman; Yesterday at 03:51 PM. Reason: p.s.
Re: Bearing 65-1388 codes? [Re: Gordo in Comox] #792121 Yesterday at 09:24 PM
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DBDBrian Offline
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Lateral thinking, nice one MM. Necessity is the mother of invention. Fortunately I have a mate with a lathe large enough to accommodate a complete wheel.


Brian

Made In England
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