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wants to shut off
#791697 11/30/19 5:44 pm
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...hello;
the other day I did about 60km on the road at 130km/h; today I just arrived from other 60km more at 130km/h.
Today is a windy and hotter day than the other.
Bike starts first kick but needs plenty of baby sitting warming if not the engine shut off.
Then on the road these two times, wanted to shut off like to grip or similar feeling. In 5 gear but in second too. Happened four times in 60km
I ultra sonic cleaned the carburetors (Mikuni) a few hundreds km ago.
I do not think that is an electric problem.
May be one of the fuel taps have tiny debris?
May be is another type of problem?
Do not happened before.

Thanks

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Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791751 12/01/19 4:30 am
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Check for air leaks. Based on the description it sounds like it may be lean.

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791753 12/01/19 5:25 am
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Hi Reverb, Just in case it’s low, what is battery voltage?
Remove cab drains & open tap. How does fuel flow? Both sides the same?
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791755 12/01/19 8:44 am
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Hot and windy and 130km ( 80mph)

Bike wants to shut off 4 times in 60km in 2nd and 5th gear.

Bike is running hot and nipping up in the bore. Carb is lean or an air leak into cylinder as Mondtstar says.

Or ignition timing. Or valve clearances.

What does “shut off” mean? Sudden stop ( ignition) or loses power ( fuel or heat)


'51 C11 in a '54 C10L frame. Back on the road...
'70 Triumph Trophy 500. Next on the bench for a refresh!
'72 Triumph Tiger 650. Back on the road...
Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791771 12/01/19 5:11 pm
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...hello; as mentioned, the first day was not hot enough to make it problematic.
Valve clearance (2 spitfire camshaft with the same clearance) is right.
No lose power; wants to cut like when you have a short and the fuse wants to brake, but all ok there. And the feeling of gripping in the bore.
Did not detected an air leak; also never happened before so how an air leak now can appear?
Carburetors bowl level are right (Mikuni). May be I need to change the slides from 25 to 20.
Timing is at 36º or so (dual plugs head) because do not like 30, 32, 34. I bought the special smartfire for dual plugs head but still not installed cause no place in this bike for the generic coils that Pazon sent so I need to re locate and invent things to try to do a decent fitment but the other bike do not have spark hence I finish without transportation. I do not have enough time to disassemble etc in a day.

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791772 12/01/19 6:06 pm
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Hasn’t this discussion been on before. Most people that are using a dual plug head have to retard the ignition by several degrees. Sounds like it’s getting too hot and it’s either running too lean or too advanced.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791783 12/01/19 7:37 pm
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...well; is the first time in almost 10000km so why not happened past Summer? in fact I changed to richer needles months ago.

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791791 12/01/19 8:24 pm
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Originally Posted by reverb
...well; is the first time in almost 10000km so why not happened past Summer? in fact I changed to richer needles months ago.



So if no other changes.... is there a balance pipe or something that can have fallen off, has a air leak formed at the carb manifold rubber or has the rubber got a split in it?


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791806 12/01/19 9:46 pm
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You have Mikunis, they are mounted on rubber stubs they can split, usually its easy to tell , the motor will spit back a lot.
For your fault.
Maybe the richer needles are causing carbon to build up, then pre ignition, maybe not, who can tell from here.
First I would be draining the float bowls into a cup to look for water and fuel flow. grit etc..
If thats Ok, next I would blame the electrical system,start looking for bad connections in the ignition circuit, try by passing the switch that sort of thing.
If its not either of these things, compression check, and on the strobe to check advance / timing.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791809 12/01/19 11:47 pm
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...I am into the Mikuni specs for twin carburetors. The only thing that some suggest is to use richer slides when some tuning was performed. Tomorrow I will change to #20 slides.
I see the pipes more blueish.
No air leaks; no spit back. I never had that in these 10000km. Balance pipe is there and looks ok.
Bowls are clean.
The timing is what I mentioned.

I need to pull more the clutch after starting if I want to go if not wants to die like lean condition. Only with the engine cold. With the Mikuni, you can remove and see clearly if the pilot jet is clogged; not this case; may be is clogged the galleries?

Could be pre ignition.

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791839 12/02/19 8:38 am
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is the lack of power at all times , or more when it is warm to hot ?
your original post ,
Made it sound like an overheating piston "soft seizure"... where physical piston friction is robbing power

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791844 12/02/19 11:47 am
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Might be worth whipping the head off and checking the piston crowns and bores for 4 corner seizure marks.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791902 12/03/19 1:46 am
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reverb Offline OP
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...did not had the time to work on the bike today.
No lack of power; as mentioned kind of grip of the pistons was the feeling or like when there is a short. Similar to those is the sensation.

Could have those marks; possible but I need the transportation right now.

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791922 12/03/19 9:23 am
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Any chance of getting the pistons to near top dead, whip plugs out and look at the crowns through the plug hole. Any signs of being eaten away?

Last bike I had go really lean it went like the clappers, then died. After it cooled down it ran again for a short while, then it holed the piston. That was an air leak at the carb, but apart from the hole
In the piston the crown looked like it had been hit with a bead blasting gun. Very clean and very stippled.

The more I think about it the less I would think it would be a 4 corner seizure, whilst not impossible, I’ve only seen it on newly built top ends where the rings haven’t seated. Almost in your case eliminating the fact the piston has poor thermal conductivity with the bore as it’s done so many miles with no problems. But if it is that then I think you would
See the shot blast finish also on the crown. More learned minds may correct me on this.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #791925 12/03/19 10:51 am
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I know it's difficult for Fernando to get certain thing in Uruguay, but an "inexpensive" bore scope that uses a smart phone would save the labor of pulling the head to have a look at the pistons and cylinder walls...Certainly detonation at higher speeds can occur and may not be able to hear it over wind , exhaust and road noise.Detonation udner loadican be more destructive than occasion pinging at light throttle..It's been my experience that Triumphs will tolerate brief occasional light load pinging...
It's not Pre ignition because that will punch a hole in the center of the piston in just several engine cycles..
As Alan says, detonation can erode and clean the piston crown, but also it may just cause pock marks around the piston crown circumferance.. and can distort the top ring land and break rings..
Backing off the total ingnition can help but it also reduces timing at low speeds and can make the engine respond poorly and cause excessive exhaust heat unless the advance curve is changed...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati 81 Ducati Pantah 500 ..On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: wants to shut off
reverb #792075 12/04/19 11:56 pm
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...hello guys; I am too busy this week to dismantle stuff; also too much dust right now because I am rebuilding the kitchen and couple of rooms (cement; bricks; etc; plenty of dust from worn out old walls)
Tony; I called today a friend that had one of those cameras (the ones that do not use the phone) but is not in working order right now.

I think that is too lean; do not know exactly why. The gas kilometer age is too good right now.
I want to clarify that the shut off intention is not a dragging feel is like a "buck" sensation after a short cut. I would dismantle things and check for a possibly one.
Last time I checked I had 36º of timing how about try to move the green disc manually to 35º?

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #792097 12/05/19 7:41 am
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You might have already checked but the needle hasn’t dropped out if it’s clip has it?


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #792242 12/07/19 3:00 am
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...hi Allan; needles are in are in place. With Mikuni carburetors is difficult that the needle escape.
I changed the slides and did 15km. Works better after the starting; no needed the clutch push; did not wanted to die. In the gearing up to 120km/h responded normal but not so much heat on the road and not so many kilometers to see if that could happens again.
Still I have not the two cylinders working properly when I cold start the engine with the choke. I need to go up on RPMs to hear the other one.
Then after warming I remove the chokes but still sounding like one cylinder operation until I let the engine to idle and idles right.
-I checked for electrical possible shorts but did not found any; only now the rear brake switch is not working.

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #792657 12/12/19 1:16 am
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...a few hours ago just died at 3km from my house.
I do not have spark at plugs so may be that cut mentioned before is what happened?
I sheltered the bike in a buddy s shop.
The battery have charge; lights good. Fuses good.
I changed for other plugs, but no spark.

I tried with a wire from the Positive of the battery to the positive of one coil but no spark at plugs.
What is strange (at least for me) is that with that wire jumping the pilot and tail light (and instruments) are "ON" but not the low/high beams- tail light combo.
Then if I move the ignition switch to "ON" (first position to the right) the lights shut off.
I checked the headlamp for any bad connection but did not found any.

After all that changing of spark plugs and no see any spark etc; I decided to screw in the plugs in the engine and kick it over again and the bike started but for a few seconds. Started rough, like the lasts times that I tried few hours ago.
Do not get it that too.

Tomorrow I ll grab the bicycle to go there and try again however, I do not see what more to do. May be the Pazon black box is ruined? (surefire)

Like I have an intermittent problem may be due to that the fuses did not blow?

Thanks

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #792689 12/12/19 9:57 am
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Try , bypassing/ jumping the ignition switch. This is a good candidate for the intermittent fault.
Is your bike positive ground/ earth?


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: wants to shut off
reverb #792692 12/12/19 12:31 pm
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Originally Posted by reverb
I tried with a wire from the Positive of the battery to the positive of one coil but no spark at plugs.

What is strange (at least for me) is that with that wire jumping the pilot and tail light (and instruments) are "ON" but not the low/high beams- tail light combo.
Then if I move the ignition switch to "ON" (first position to the right) the lights shut off.


There is continuity between terminals 2 and 3 of the (presumably?) standard 149SA ignition switch at 'OFF' but not at 'Ignition only'.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Connecting battery positive (as it's negative earth) to the 'ignition' (terminal 2) side with the switch at 'OFF' allows 'lighting' (pilot, tail, ins.) circuit current to flow across the switch. Turning the key to ON (ignition only 1-2) breaks the 2-3 connection.


Originally Posted by reverb
I checked the headlamp for any bad connection but did not found any.


The headlamp is connected to ignition switch terminal (4) and that has no switch continuity at either 'OFF' or 'Ignition only' therefore, the headlamp shouldn't work until 'Ignition and lights' is selected.

Last edited by L.A.B.; 12/12/19 1:35 pm.
Re: wants to shut off
reverb #792694 12/12/19 1:51 pm
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Hi Gavin; you have another jumping besides what I did?

Hi L.A.B. What do not get is that you mention terminal 2 (on the switch I guess) so is the same that to connect to the positive of a coil? (I connected from the battery positive to the coil positive)

--I think the Pazon black box is damaged.

Thanks

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #792695 12/12/19 2:04 pm
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Originally Posted by reverb
What do not get is that you mention terminal 2 (on the switch I guess) so is the same that to connect to the positive of a coil? (I connected from the battery positive to the coil positive)


If you connected battery positive to the coil positive terminal (Pazon wired negative earth) without disconnecting the existing ignition 'power' wire from Edit: the coil positive terminal (or ignition switch terminal 2) then it would also have connected battery positive to ignition switch terminal 2.

Last edited by L.A.B.; 12/12/19 2:43 pm.
Re: wants to shut off
reverb #792698 12/12/19 2:52 pm
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...did not know that.
I am reading the Pazon trouble shooting but is not clearly enough for me.

"...connect the meter's negative (black) test probe to frame ground and the positive (red) test probe to the ignition feed wire, where it connects to the ignition module."

"Connect the test bulb between the frame (ground) and the ignition feed wire"

In what part of the ignition feed wire? The only connections if I remember right are on the battery terminals.

Then in the
IGNITION MODULE HAS POWER - manual TRIGGER TEST
Not clearly if I kick the engine or not.

-I will go to where the bike is in couple of hours or so when I would have some time; but I am seeing what elements I need to carry etc.

Re: wants to shut off
reverb #792700 12/12/19 3:10 pm
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Originally Posted by reverb
I am reading the Pazon trouble shooting but is not clearly enough for me.

"...connect the meter's negative (black) test probe to frame ground and the positive (red) test probe to the ignition feed wire, where it connects to the ignition module."

"Connect the test bulb between the frame (ground) and the ignition feed wire"

In what part of the ignition feed wire? The only connections if I remember right are on the battery terminals.


As it says: "where it (the "ignition feed wire") connects to the ignition module"


Originally Posted by reverb
Then in the
IGNITION MODULE HAS POWER - manual TRIGGER TEST
Not clearly if I kick the engine or not.


As it says: "The Sure-Fire ignition module features a simple self-test facility for producing sparks without turning the engine."

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