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Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question #790016 11/14/19 5:14 am
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Denis J Offline OP
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Aside from the blantantly obvious differences, what are (if any) the telltale signs the basket case I am trying to buy is a Clubman or a Scrambler

I verified the engine and frame are both 1958 and the owner has had the pieces in boxes since he got them in 1968.
No tank, fenders or seat
No oil tanks or air box
No controls or headlamp
Transmissions (plural) with no discernible markings with all parts separated..still digging in the shed for more stuff.
Basically the bones of a Goldie. A complete engine, a frame and a box of bolts.

Is there a way to check for some detail on the frame or engine that would give it away?
I assume sending for a verification with the registry would be smart If I do get it. Regardless if it’s one or the other I’ve longed for a Goldie in both trims
The only loose parts are for a golden flash he disassembled himself in the 90’s. A 650 engine, frame and the big tank and fenders. He meticulously organized everything, but he never knew the back story to the DBD..only that the frame and engine match the title info.

Last edited by Denis J; 11/14/19 5:15 am.

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Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790017 11/14/19 5:39 am
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You need the Gold Star Buyers Companion...the best start to deciding what you have and avoid the pitfalls..https://www.amazon.com/Gold-Star-Buyers-Companion-Expanded/dp/0692541195/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=gold+star+buyers+companion&qid=1573709745&sr=8-1

The big things that MIGHt give a hint are the diameter of the cylinder head inlet tract (and spacing between the carb mounting studs) and whether or not the frame has passenger footpeg loops. Beyond those things, I would definately get in touch with the Machine Registrar (Ian Jackson) at the UK Gold Star Owners Club, who will very likely be able to confirm the frame/engine match and what trim it was dispatched into and to where/when. He may even have details of the original engine test certificate on file (for what it's worth..)

KW


No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
Oliver Wendell Holmes
Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790046 11/14/19 3:34 pm
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I second Kerry's suggestion to contact Ian Jackson for verification of the engine & frame numbers. When Ian verified my Catalina scrambler, he pointed to the S stamped under the engine number. Therefore DBD34GS43** with an S stamped underneath, denoting scrambler. And he was able to tell me that it was dispatched to the West Coast dealer, Hap Alzina, on 6.26.1959.

www.bsagoldstarownersclub.com

Last edited by NYBSAGUY; 11/14/19 6:17 pm.
Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Kerry W] #790048 11/14/19 3:42 pm
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Originally Posted by Kerry W
You need the Gold Star Buyers Companion...
And I second Kerry's suggestion that anyone contemplating such a purchase needs this book. Full disclosure: I know the author...

Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790053 11/14/19 4:52 pm
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Gordo in Comox Offline
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Wow, it sounds like great start. For sure the GSOC would most likely have the despatch record that shows what the factory thought they were sending out. My example below is for a 1958 Scram model.

You should send the GSOC both the frame and engine numbers as they may not have left the factory together.. Ian will not give the the matching number but he will confirm if the engine/frame left the factory together if you give him both numbers. I would think that the frame configuration would be the most significant if you are trying to recreate the bike

The ident points given above by others are all valid but some scramblers in that time frame had frames that had all the rear loop bits as per a Clubman. One clue would be that the scrambles machines also had the central oil tank platform welded on. Also if you look at the frame the cross tube under the engine it will have evidence of the clamp on footpegs if it had been used as a scrambler. The wear marks should be quite evident around where the cross tube is welded onto the bottom side rails. My frame listed below has the platform and the evidence of scrambles pegs. I have loosely stuck a peg on another frame to show the location.

Gordo


Click twice to enlarge
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790059 11/14/19 6:07 pm
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As for your gearbox comments I have posted an example of what you are looking for in the way of a code for the type of box(es) you have. This is on the inner cover on the right side.

As for the gears you can start by counting teeth on the obvious gears. The A gear is the one that goes through the bearing towards the clutch. The STD and TRI boxes have 26 teeth while the others all have 25. The big flat looking H gear that slides onto the end of the layshaft will have 25 or 24 teeth for a close ratio box (RR), 27 teeth for scrambles or standard (SC,STD ) and 29 for wide ratio (TRI), The gears with the same tooth count are not interchangeable between the boxes and the pairs that match up on the mainshaft and layshaft need to add up to 43 teeth. The two gear pairs in middle have grooves for the shifter forks to engage.

This will get you started.

Gordo

PS: I have added the layout for a SC and a STD box showing the tooth count and position of each gear.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Last edited by Gordo in Comox; 11/14/19 7:04 pm. Reason: photos added

The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790067 11/14/19 8:02 pm
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Another vote for the Gold Star Buyer's Companion.

Further to Gordo's excellent info on gearboxes, a Gold Star would have had a needle roller gearbox (T or T2 suffix) of some sort rather than the plain bush gearbox used on the B31/B33 and A7/A10. It's possible that some of the transmissions are from the Golden Flash, so it could be handy to put those aside immediately.
As a general rule, a Catalina would have had the SC.T gearbox. The despatch records may include info on the options fitted, or may not.

Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790069 11/14/19 8:18 pm
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Denis J Offline OP
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Thanks gents Excellent information

The engine does in fact have an "S" stamped under the engine number and there is passenger peg loops.
The owner said he found a tank for it. He mentioned it is a small tank.
I assume this is panning out the be a Scrambler.

Are all scramblers "Catalina" bikes?


Full time classic motorcycle mechanic and enthusiast to a fault
Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790070 11/14/19 8:34 pm
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Originally Posted by Denis J
Are all scramblers "Catalina" bikes?


That's a good question, and as I see the numbers of 'new' Catalina tanks advertised on eBay every day, I wonder how many of the original 600+ Catalinas under restoration are needing tanks. Mine was a badly rusted original, so after a circuitous journey through Canada and the midwest, it sits on my shelf as a very expensive 'original', one that doesn't look much different from the eBay versions.

The Buyer's Guide will give you significant details regarding what it means to be a Catalina versus a Scrambler. Ian Jackson's dispatch records will also show if it was a Catalina.

As I'm sure you know, the Catalina was a version of the Gold Star scrambler made and styled to Hap Alzina's requirements. Alzina, the west cost importer, believed it would be a good marketing ploy to name his scramblers after the most popular race of the time, the legendary Catalina GP, a 100-mile race on Catalina Island, off the coast of Los Angeles. Interestingly, the styling of the on/off road Catalina in some ways points forward to today's 'Adventure' bikes, like the KTMs and others, that look like enduro bikes, but are mainly ridden on the road.


Last edited by NYBSAGUY; 11/14/19 8:35 pm.
Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790075 11/14/19 9:55 pm
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Gordo in Comox Offline
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Denis: Does your frame have in addition to rear passenger peg mounting points, the rear set peg mountings bits just behind the foot brake pivot like in this photo?

Gordo

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790092 11/15/19 1:03 am
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Gordo's question about the rear-set mounts is the FIRST place I would look if I were you.

Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790102 11/15/19 2:30 am
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Denis J Offline OP
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It is difficult to see in these pictures I took while pinched in a tunnel of stuff. It looks wide open, but it took a while to get this shot. There will be a few hours of digging to find the rest of the bits
- Seat mount clipped off the GS frame. The frame behind it checks out as a 57 A10

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790103 11/15/19 2:37 am
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Here are shots he sent me of the engine and the nose of a small tank - Looks like the tank on my Road Rocket..I believe it is the scrambler tank. He said he also found a bucket type seat. His description matched aclubman seat. Maybe this bike is a bitsa biek from back in the day.
- Note I used microsoft paint to remove the engine numbers for security. They are there, jut not in this modified picture
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790105 11/15/19 3:56 am
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Looks like the start of a great project! I would jump on it ASAP !!

Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790108 11/15/19 4:18 am
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From the top it is hard to tell if the tank is for a twin or single. The bottoms are different, these shots of a Catalina scrambles tank show the top and bottom cutout pattern for the single.

Gordo

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790109 11/15/19 4:21 am
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Denis J Offline OP
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Working on it Jake..im very eager to get it in my grubby hands

All I have to work with are these poor pictures and a story. Its a 4 week wait till the next meeting. Fingers crossed.

Zooming in it looks like there are rear set mounts..hard to tell with the swingarm bolt in the way
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Gordo in Comox] #790110 11/15/19 4:22 am
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Denis J Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gordo in Comox
From the top it is hard to tell if the tank is for a twin or single. The bottoms are different, these shots of a Catalina scrambles tank show the top and bottom cutout pattern for the single.

Gordo

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Thanks for the detail
It is possible the tank came with the A10 in the pile


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Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790135 11/15/19 2:42 pm
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Thanks so much for taking the time here gents. Gordo your pics are excellent.
Magnetoman..Book ordered
Thank again!


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Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790188 11/16/19 12:45 am
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That tank Denis looks like a non Gold Star w/o the threaded boss for the breather in front of the filler hole.


Bill B...


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Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790311 11/17/19 4:19 am
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Looks like it has the breather boss to me..which it would need if it has the hinges cap..which it has..

Looks like a GS SCR tank, painted as a Scrambler, not Catalina. (Did all Catalina's have a blue tank?)

KW


No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
Oliver Wendell Holmes
Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Kerry W] #790353 11/17/19 4:52 pm
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Originally Posted by Kerry W
Looks like it has the breather boss to me..which it would need if it has the hinges cap..which it has..

Looks like a GS SCR tank, painted as a Scrambler, not Catalina. (Did all Catalina's have a blue tank?)
KW



Are we talking about the same tank Kerry? I'm referring to the red one that's pictured with the engine and just the front is showing.


Bill B...

Last edited by Boomer; 11/17/19 4:53 pm.

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Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790359 11/17/19 5:12 pm
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Kerry W Offline
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Ahh..Bill B..that explains everything - my error. I was looking at the silver 2 (Imp) gal tank above your post. I did wonder how you'd missed that - obviously, you didn't!


No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
Oliver Wendell Holmes
Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790385 11/17/19 9:50 pm
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No worries, I was beginning to wonder about my eyesight.


Bill B...


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Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790485 11/18/19 10:25 pm
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Denis J Offline OP
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Confirmed
1958 GS Scrambler built for UK market sold at dealer named Comerfords.
Ian came through. He commented on the iron barrel...it appears to me to be a painted alloy unit.
I noted a missing fin and the paint slowly coming off throughout

Now just need to find proper pics of a scrambler
Google the details and trying to find a scrambler other than a Catalina is tough

So much info here. Im very eager ti get my paws on it. Book on the way.


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Re: Scrambler or Clubman? A macro question [Re: Denis J] #790491 11/18/19 10:40 pm
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That's quite a history. Comerfords was a big off-road dealership in Thames Ditton, about an hour south west of London, on the River Thames. Off road, in those days, really meant scrambles and trials, and Comerfords were heavily involved in both, as sponsors and as one of the largest dealerships in the south of England.

How your bike got to the US would be an interesting story in itself, perhaps lost to history.

Keep digging for images - you will find them. There are a lot of very good Gold Star scramblers (not Catalina) out there.

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