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#@*& I think I’m screwed!!! #790238 11/16/19 5:55 pm
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Norcoastal Offline OP
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Finalizing my engine rebuild and while tightening the clutch spring bolt on the inner cover, the bolt snapped off.

Damn it!!!!!!

I tried drilling it out and using an easy out but all I did was make the hole too big.

I’m screwed right?

Are the entire engine cases shot now?

Do I need to start from scratch and build an entirely new engine?

I am SO FRUSTRATED!!!

Is this bolt necessary? Meaning if I just set it in the hole and attached the clutch spring to it and then attached the outer case, will that hold the bolt in place enough to anchor the clutch spring???

I am at a loss I am so frustrated.

Any words of wisdom or hope will be greatly appreciated.


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2016 Ducati Xdiavel
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Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790239 11/16/19 6:01 pm
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What sort of bike is it?


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790241 11/16/19 6:07 pm
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I’m sorry, it’s a 1968 B44 441


1973 Norton Commando Project
2016 Ducati Xdiavel
1968 Ford GT40 Replica
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790242 11/16/19 6:09 pm
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I have such a knot in my stomach. I’ve been working on this engine for weeks and I’m just about done. New seals, new bearings, new rings, new clutch. Just ordered a whole new set of Allen bolts to put the cases together and I’m done.


1973 Norton Commando Project
2016 Ducati Xdiavel
1968 Ford GT40 Replica
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790243 11/16/19 6:11 pm
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No idea which part you having issue with, is it a clutch spring adjuster nut on the primary side or something to do with the clutch cable lever on the timing side. Posting pics removed misinterpretation.

Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790244 11/16/19 6:18 pm
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Guessing the kick start return spring? And the 1/4" bolt that anchors it.

Last edited by Pelle; 11/16/19 6:22 pm.
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790246 11/16/19 6:21 pm
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For some reason I can’t upload pictures. But it’s the little bolt on the kickstart side of the engine. It’s on the inner cover and all it does is allow the kick start spring a place to anchor.

Sorry I said clutch spring. I’m a little upset.

It’s just the bolt with the little knub on it to hole the kick start spring. I don’t believe it has any other structural use and on the outer cover on the kick start side, there is a recessed hole to accept this knub which is why if I just put the cover on it “ may “ be ok???

Last edited by Norcoastal; 11/16/19 6:23 pm.

1973 Norton Commando Project
2016 Ducati Xdiavel
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Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790249 11/16/19 6:28 pm
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I think I’m [email protected]#ked!


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Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790250 11/16/19 6:28 pm
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Step back, calm down and decide what to do, it may be best to take it to someone to weld a rod onto what it left so enough torque can be applied or use impact driver but no easyouts as they get you in the mud even further.

Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790251 11/16/19 6:37 pm
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If you remove the inner timing cover, can you grip the rest of the bolt and undo it?

And everything Kommando said.

Last edited by Pelle; 11/16/19 6:43 pm.
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790252 11/16/19 6:37 pm
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Thanks but I’m beyond that I think. I drilled the hole too big. My only option that I can think of is to maybe have someone melt aluminum into the hole and tap it from scratch.

This just set me way back. Damn it!!!


1973 Norton Commando Project
2016 Ducati Xdiavel
1968 Ford GT40 Replica
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790253 11/16/19 6:39 pm
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This is a nice B44B early ‘68 engine. I’ve put a lot of time and money into it.

It doesn’t matter at this point to try and get the old bolt out, I think I over drilled and now the engine case is shot.


1973 Norton Commando Project
2016 Ducati Xdiavel
1968 Ford GT40 Replica
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Pelle] #790255 11/16/19 6:41 pm
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Originally Posted by Pelle
If you remove the inner timing cover, can you grip the rest of the bolt and undo it?


I’ve already removed the inner cover. The bolt had broken deep into the hole which is why I tried drilling it out which just made it worse.


1973 Norton Commando Project
2016 Ducati Xdiavel
1968 Ford GT40 Replica
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790256 11/16/19 6:43 pm
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I can feel your frustration, so close to completing the rebuild, yet so far.

Luckily the bolt you mention is attached to the inner timing cover which is easy enough to take off on a B44.

So remove the inner timing cover, take it to a local machine shop, explain what happened and get them to machine out the old bolt, fit a re-thread insert and off you go. Alternately, source a new inner timing cover, there are plenty available.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: gunner] #790258 11/16/19 6:48 pm
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Originally Posted by gunner
I can feel your frustration, so close to completing the rebuild, yet so far.

Luckily the bolt you mention is attached to the inner timing cover which is easy enough to take off on a B44.

So remove the inner timing cover, take it to a local machine shop, explain what happened and get them to machine out the old bolt, fit a re-thread insert and off you go. Alternately, source a new inner timing cover, there are plenty available.


Thanks gunner, but the inner cover is fine. It broke off in the engine case. It the engine case that I drilled too big.

I doubt anyone has a thread for a ‘68 British bike in a modern shop, or do they?


1973 Norton Commando Project
2016 Ducati Xdiavel
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Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790259 11/16/19 7:07 pm
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Originally Posted by Norcoastal
Originally Posted by gunner
I can feel your frustration, so close to completing the rebuild, yet so far.

Luckily the bolt you mention is attached to the inner timing cover which is easy enough to take off on a B44.

So remove the inner timing cover, take it to a local machine shop, explain what happened and get them to machine out the old bolt, fit a re-thread insert and off you go. Alternately, source a new inner timing cover, there are plenty available.


Thanks gunner, but the inner cover is fine. It broke off in the engine case. It the engine case that I drilled too big.

I doubt anyone has a thread for a ‘68 British bike in a modern shop, or do they?

The stud that holds the kickstart spring, threads into the inner cover as previously stated. Maybe it's something different you broke.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790260 11/16/19 7:08 pm
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Depending on the size of the hole now, possibly a thread repair insert can fix this. Anyway the engine case is not scrap.

Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790261 11/16/19 7:18 pm
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OK, after studying the parts books I think I see what you mean now. It sounds like the kick-start return anchor bolt (part 57-3764) has broken off where is screws in to the TS crankcase. This part fits through the inner timing cover and screws in to the timing side crankcase.

Maybe what you could try is find someone good at welding and get them to weld a small bolt to the broken off part. The heat will help free the seized part and it should then be possible to unscrew the old bolt.

Alternatively remove the engine and take it to a local machine shop to get drilled out or find a new set of cases.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790262 11/16/19 7:18 pm
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I’m going to search vintage motorcycle repair shops and see if someone can fix this. I’m a weekend mechanic. This is beyond my ability.

I’m so mad at myself. I could have just left it well enough alone. I didn’t have to try and tighten it.

It’s my own fault, I’m just beyond frustrated.

Thanks for all of your advice. I’m either going to try and get it fixed or buy new engine cases.


1973 Norton Commando Project
2016 Ducati Xdiavel
1968 Ford GT40 Replica
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: gunner] #790263 11/16/19 7:20 pm
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Originally Posted by gunner
OK, after studying the parts books I think I see what you mean now. It sounds like the kick-start return anchor bolt (part 57-3764) has broken off where is screws in to the TS crankcase. This part fits through the inner timing cover and screws in to the timing side crankcase.

Maybe what you could try is find someone good at welding and get them to weld a small bolt to the broken off part. The heat will help free the seized part and it should then be possible to unscrew the old bolt.

Alternatively remove the engine and take it to a local machine shop to get drilled out or find a new set of cases.


Yep...

Anyone have an extra set of cases they’d like to sell 😞


1973 Norton Commando Project
2016 Ducati Xdiavel
1968 Ford GT40 Replica
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790264 11/16/19 7:26 pm
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You are not there yet, 2 site sponsors can help you do a repair, edv engineering and Peter Quick at unitsingles.

https://www.shopevengineering.com/

www.bsaunitsingles.com

Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: kommando] #790266 11/16/19 7:36 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
You are not there yet, 2 site sponsors can help you do a repair, edv engineering and Peter Quick at unitsingles.

https://www.shopevengineering.com/

www.bsaunitsingles.com


I’ve purchased a lot of parts from Peter. He knows my engine. Maybe I’ll reach out to him.

Thanks K


1973 Norton Commando Project
2016 Ducati Xdiavel
1968 Ford GT40 Replica
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790267 11/16/19 7:43 pm
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It's not a big deal to assemble and disassemble one cylinder BSA engine.
Everything will go so much better and quicker second time around.
Remember installing and uninstalling gearbox of BMW R75 ( military bike from second World War ) many years ago - first time it took me 3 hours, fourth time just an hour.:)

Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Adam M.] #790269 11/16/19 7:56 pm
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Originally Posted by Adam M.
It's not a big deal to assemble and disassemble one cylinder BSA engine.
Everything will go so much better and quicker second time around.
Remember installing and uninstalling gearbox of BMW R75 ( military bike from second World War ) many years ago - first time it took me 3 hours, fourth time just an hour.:)


Haha, second time around is funny. I must have taken this apart 10 times getting everything right. But you’re correct Adam. These motors are super simple and super easy to tear apart and put back together.

I’m ok with what I did. It’s just frustrating.

I’m going to the movies with my wife to see Ford vs Ferrari. I am also building a 1968 Ford GT40 and it’s in my garage next to my motorcycle. That will take my mind off of me being so stupid.

Thanks Adam, you are 100% correct. This isn’t a big deal, just a set back.


1973 Norton Commando Project
2016 Ducati Xdiavel
1968 Ford GT40 Replica
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790289 11/16/19 11:12 pm
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I think a repair would be more straight forward than getting new cases. From what I can see the area would be easy to weld although you might need to grind down the inside so as to allow the welder full access to the area that needs to be built up. I am assuming that the broken bolt has been drilled out.

I think that this is the bolt and hole you are talking about.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

The hole is enlarged for the first bit to allow for the dowel which helps to position the inner cover the is threaded for the bolt.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

This is the dowel that positions the inner cover

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Once welded up the face of the case would need to be dressed flat with surface. For drilling and threading you can use the inner cover hole to establish the center of the new hole.

Good luck

Gordo


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790304 11/17/19 2:36 am
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That’s exactly correct.

That’s where I broke my bolt.

It may be reparable with a 1/4 x 26 BSF helicoil


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2016 Ducati Xdiavel
1968 Ford GT40 Replica
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790306 11/17/19 3:14 am
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That sounds encouraging although It might be tricky to get it in far enough to leave room for the dowel.

Gordo


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790307 11/17/19 3:17 am
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This is a job for ed at E&V Engineering. in Michigan or
Jake and Rob Hall at Halls Custom Vintage, or HCV in Nort Carolina
Frank Deihl at Classic Cycle works in South Carolina


Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790309 11/17/19 4:02 am
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I found a few shops who I’m talking to.

I’ll keep you posted.


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2016 Ducati Xdiavel
1968 Ford GT40 Replica
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Gordo in Comox] #790310 11/17/19 4:03 am
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Originally Posted by Gordo in Comox
That sounds encouraging although It might be tricky to get it in far enough to leave room for the dowel.

Gordo


That’s why I’m going to take it to a shop. I’ll just screw it up.


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2016 Ducati Xdiavel
1968 Ford GT40 Replica
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790340 11/17/19 3:36 pm
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Get some of these next time you need to drill out a broken stud/bolt, see how the flutes are all LH spiral except for the single RH one added as a comparison. So you drill in reverse you do not force the stud/bolt in tighter but actually have a chance to loosen it enough so it turn with pliers.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790342 11/17/19 3:48 pm
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Or you can find a shop with an EDM machine and have the bolt remains electro-discharge blasted out without damaging the aluminum. I had this done to and Alpha V6 block to remove the remains of the head studs that were seized after I machined off the exposed portion.

Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790402 11/18/19 12:54 am
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I’m going to the movies with my wife to see Ford vs Ferrari. I am also building a 1968 Ford GT40 and it’s in my garage next to my motorcycle. That will take my mind off of me being so stupid.

Thanks Adam, you are 100% correct. This isn’t a big deal, just a set back. [/quote]
How about a pic of that GT40. Love seeing older race cars.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790403 11/18/19 1:06 am
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It’s a work in progress.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


1973 Norton Commando Project
2016 Ducati Xdiavel
1968 Ford GT40 Replica
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790410 11/18/19 2:19 am
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Nice. Bet that's a tough build.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790414 11/18/19 3:44 am
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If I understand correctly, the screw is out and now you have an oversized hole there.

I'm a bit out on a limb here, because I've only had a few cursory acquaintances with B44s, but I think that part is like an A65. If so,

The screw is in the inner timing cover, not the crankcase. So absolute worst case is a timing cover (ie, not the whole engine!).

You do need something there; without it, the spring will eat into the timing cover. I've seen this on A65s where the screw was left out.

That screw never has to be removed to disassemble the engine, so you could have a post welded in place there.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790418 11/18/19 4:32 am
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If the threads are damaged I think the easiest solution is to drill and tap for an insert then make an oversize tubular stepped dowel that will press in over the insert and remove the dowel from the timing cover. The engine does not care which side is doweled.
Mark, as you sure it does not have to be removed to take off the timing cover? It appears to have a hex integral with the bolt.

Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790450 11/18/19 4:28 pm
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Mark: The bolt in question goes through the inner cover into the case. If you look at the photo I posted earlier I show the bolt screwed into the case, The inner cover, not shown, fills in the gap. As well the bolt is important for holding the inner cover on as that is the furthest aft point for attaching the inner cover. Some outer cover screws are aft of that but do not hold the inner cover on.

Gordo


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790458 11/18/19 6:45 pm
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You’re 100% accurate Gordo

I found a shop that will helicoil it for me. That will fix it.


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Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790459 11/18/19 6:47 pm
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Gordo has it right. Did it break off at the hex on the outboard side of the inner cover? have you taken the inner timing cover off like DM asked? Not enough of the bolt sticking out to heat it and grab it with real vise grip pliers? if its rung off flush with the rs case I/2 that's a harder fix for sure. might have to Dremel into the mount hole to remove the bolt and have the boss rewelded, drilled then install a thread insert.

Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790490 11/18/19 10:40 pm
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Frank the Welder Offline
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I do a lot of TIG welding and often remove stuck broken bolts. With the focused arc you heat a bolt to 2K f instantly which when it chills usually collapses the rust matrix allowing the bolt to just spin out. I sharpen a scrap socket head and weld it right to the end of the broke bolt.

All of the screws in my access cover were ruined and they all came out using this process. I welded little handles on the 8-32? screws and they came right out.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #790493 11/18/19 10:49 pm
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NickL Offline
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Hmmm, doing that on old sand cast alley cases normally results in them being banana shaped when you are finished.
Those screws can be drilled out and either helicoiled or tapped for 5mm ones. (done this many times.)
The last thing i ever want done on cases is any welding, i'll do whatever i can to avoid it, the bloody things always distort.
Just my 2c of course.

Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: NickL] #790507 11/18/19 11:56 pm
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Frank the Welder Offline
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Originally Posted by NickL
Hmmm, doing that on old sand cast alley cases normally results in them being banana shaped when you are finished.
Those screws can be drilled out and either helicoiled or tapped for 5mm ones. (done this many times.)
The last thing i ever want done on cases is any welding, i'll do whatever i can to avoid it, the bloody things always distort.
Just my 2c of course.



Take another look. I weld extensions on broken bolts and the case hardly gets warm, all done in 20 min. I trust your advice is based on your experience so you have my confidence. Proceed with conviction.

Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #791241 11/25/19 4:51 am
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NickL Offline
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Fair enough.

The standard screws are BA.

Re: #@*& I think I’m screwed!!! [Re: Norcoastal] #791245 11/25/19 6:48 am
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Mitch Offline
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aluminum is an excellent conductor of heat. thats why pistons are made of it. I have blown broken studs out aluminum with a cutting torch. not for the feint of heart, but it works. thats not a likely solution in this case because the bolt being broken off deeper inside. I have also welded a nut on to a broken stud.. that is my #1 way to deal with them, a nut set over the stud, then MIG it, starting on the broken stud and filling out to the nut

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