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Rebuilding an A65 oil pump #790175 11/15/19 10:12 pm
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Mark Parker Offline OP
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I've just been rebuilding a '71 DD alloy oil pump and have found some interesting things about it. These pumps are worth having as they are high volume. This one was jammed up and cleaning and reassembling wasn't fixing it. It would lock solid plus threads were stripped or stripping. The threads are similar pitch to metric 5mm .8 which is slightly bigger. So I put helicoils into the stripped holes and used 5mm fully threaded bolts. The gears liked to be meshed a certain way to spin freely without drastic tight spots, it was just a matter of marking teeth and moving them around till it turned best. The driven gear would only go into the drive one way that would turn. So it ended up with a slight tight spot but spun on the drill fine in a container of oil. On the bike it was idling with 60-70psi with cold oil. If it goes past 100psi when riding I'll adjust the relief pressure back a bit.


mark
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Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #790187 11/16/19 12:14 am
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I thought all the later ones after 1970 were iron. Guess not.

Last edited by Nick H; 11/16/19 12:15 am.

1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Nick H] #790189 11/16/19 12:47 am
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Originally Posted by Nick H
I thought all the later ones after 1970 were iron. Guess not.

My March 71 A65 had the junk metal pump with the same date scratched on the body.
I've been through two or three of these pumps. Put all the gears back in the same positions and spin them in oil. Every one still has at least one tight spot!
Whose bogus idea was it to make an oil pump out of the same metal which causes carbs to be junk after very few miles? The stuff warps if you look at it funny!


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #790191 11/16/19 12:51 am
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Frank the Welder Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
I've just been rebuilding a '71 DD alloy oil pump and have found some interesting things about it. These pumps are worth having as they are high volume. This one was jammed up and cleaning and reassembling wasn't fixing it. It would lock solid plus threads were stripped or stripping. The threads are similar pitch to metric 5mm .8 which is slightly bigger. So I put helicoils into the stripped holes and used 5mm fully threaded bolts. The gears liked to be meshed a certain way to spin freely without drastic tight spots, it was just a matter of marking teeth and moving them around till it turned best. The driven gear would only go into the drive one way that would turn. So it ended up with a slight tight spot but spun on the drill fine in a container of oil. On the bike it was idling with 60-70psi with cold oil. If it goes past 100psi when riding I'll adjust the relief pressure back a bit.


I am rebuilding a zinc B44 pump and have a intermittent high spot and didn't think of sampling different fits. Thanks!

Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #790201 11/16/19 2:50 am
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Mark Parker Offline OP
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I was replacing the end feed oil seal. I could see on the pressure gauge when the oil pressure behind the old seal would expand it onto the crank and the gage would go up. Going in there I thought I'd get another pump ready. The one in it wasn't even seeping in the middle, why the bike doesn't wet sump I expect. Changed it anyway. It has no tight spots at all, so I guess they fix themselves to a degree. The 5mm recoils work well, as they take a bit more torque, I was thinking of drilling it for bigger 6mm bolts but there is probably insufficient room.


mark
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #790284 11/16/19 10:16 pm
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Always wondered what “REBUILDING” the oil pump meant. We can replace the O-Rings, but there isn’t any rebuilding about it. All that ever happens is a headache over binding after it’s taken apart. I have respect for Mark Parker’s engine / mechanical experience, and the metric bolts tip is a good one. If the O-Rings are to be replaced for wet sumping, can’t the gears remain meshed while the top shaft housing is removed? My experience with several pump apart “cleaning” attempts has never been a happy time. I hear of other’s lapping the end plate.... terrible idea, and a sure thing to bind it up! IMHO,. Fush’em in a can of oil with a drill motor, and if any particles in the pump come out, good. If it turns when removed, don’t take I apart!
You may not believe it, but there are jet engine turbine and compressor rotors that were designed as Self Clearancing, they bind at start and the rotor tips cut the required clearance! So hey, BSA was ahead of it’s time! I expect a bunch of rebuttals, but again, just my experience added........ BTW, I have about 6 spare pumps if anyone wants to mess with one.


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
1 '65 XLCH, Hernia Gift, on the way to Japan!
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #790302 11/17/19 2:00 am
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"I hear of other’s lapping the end plate.... terrible idea, and a sure thing to bind it up! "

I disagree, not just the end plate , the main body and the gears. You dont need much magnification to see how crude the machining is.

I took about 4 thou of end float out of my pump body by lapping the face down. likewise scores in the end plate do not improve pumping. lapping this flat will not cause your pmp to seize. When inspected the gears show more wear to the OD than the ID , effectively a taper rather than a flat face. flattening the tops and bottom of the gears is where the gains are.
To work on the oil pump you need patience, a flat lap surface, and optical aids.
New gears are hard to come by, when I could get them the surface finish was poor to awful. The home artisan can improve. I ve lapped burrs off gears with 1/4 washers, if its better than before , its still better.
my bike is still running , it never bound up.
When its all together fresh and oiled it should spin with some resistance, one light finger on a 6 inch spanner is the torque for a fresh pump

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/17/19 2:06 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
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The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #790314 11/17/19 5:21 am
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Hi

Plus 1 on what Gavin said. If you have a pump which is 50+ year old and of unknown year of use plus the experience and knowledge to return it to good working condition then do so. On the other hand if you lack the previous mentioned experience and knowledge then leave it well alone.

My tuppence worth

John

Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #790319 11/17/19 8:01 am
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Mark Parker Offline OP
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Doing end plate and front is fine but I make trouble doing the body itself for the front feed gears, the one is fixed on the drive and difficult to dress the end for clearance.

As for hot running pressures its around 75psi if it idles at 8-900rpm it drops below 20psi at about 1200 it jumps to 40psi and looks like the new seal may be pushing out and making a better seal. Not that it matters as its much improved.


mark
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #790423 11/18/19 5:18 am
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I just rebuilt a C15 oil pump...

Although different I will give you my 2cents as it may help

First, I lapped all surfaces flat on my lapping plate

As you lap / sand each surface, you are removing material

The material you removed must be removed from your gears to make up what you have removed

If you have access to a surface grinder, you can surface grind the tops of the gears so they sit below any surface approx .001"

Tighten the pump and check for tight spots

If there are any tight spots, I like to add lapping compound to the tops of the gears ONLY and rotate the pump

From there, the compound will clearance the tops of the gears giving you a close tolerance fit

Make a jig to mount on a plate as the pump will distort once fitted to the machine and may bind again


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Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #790429 11/18/19 8:48 am
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An end fed motor requires about 60% of the capacity of the standard pump so the monkey metal type is fine on those engines.

I've never had one of these pumps i could not rebuild to a satisfactory standard. Time and patience, that's all.
If you can't be bothered just buy a new one. Like so many other things eh.

Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #790433 11/18/19 10:57 am
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Oil pump " blueprinting" is standard procedure when building any performance orientated vintage car or bike..I built a modified A10 20 years ago..Guys on this site back then talked about the low hot oil pressure on A10's...I made sure the pump had correct clearances, fitted an oil pressure gauge,a bit of a task on an A10.The right side bush had correct clearances as did the rods..The hot oil pressure at idle on mine was higher than many had while running down the road..It's all about details..Yes, it was a cast iron pump ...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791342 11/26/19 6:24 am
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Mark Parker Offline OP
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So the oil pressure was still not right and getting worse, idling when hot with zero pressure, plus even out on the highway motoring it was getting back to 40psi! It's been gradually getting worse for a couple of years, last year I fitted a bigger oil cooler, which is great you can feel one side hot the other side pipe much cooler it helped a bit. I readjusted the relief valve spring, plus changed the pump and seal all to no avail. The new Oil pressure gauge came today. Started it, straight past 100psi turned it off adjusted the spring, ie, squashing it in a vice till it was shorter. Started it again idling at 85psi going almost to 100psi with rpm, the oil is cold so it will do for now till I actually go somewhere and get it hot. If it's 60psi above 3,000 that's fine, anywhere up to 80psi is fine. So this gauge has probably been misreading for a few years, and suddenly got a lot worse. I was wondering why the thing was only going to 60psi when cold when 95-100psi used to be the norm.


mark
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791352 11/26/19 10:44 am
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I believe the rule of thumb is 10lbs for every 1,000 revolutions

Bushing clearance, insert clearance (and condition) will effect this as well as the type of oil that you are running

I wouldn't be too concerned with 60psi on the highway


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Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791388 11/26/19 5:02 pm
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The A65 pressure relief valve is set to 50 PSI so if you were getting 95-100 PSI something was wrong with your OPRV or the gauge.
Running high pressure will put more load on the pump and if yours is the pot metal type it may wear out faster.
You should measure the oil temperature in the tank with the engine up to temperature. It should not be too low or the water condensed in the oil will not evaporate.

Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791411 11/26/19 10:28 pm
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I just adjust the OPRV Dave. The pump I took out wasn't even seeping at the join so was still good. I've put a brand new OPRV in a bike that gave very low pressure, less than 20psi from memory, because the spring was so collapsed. It was so short it barely reached the piston. You cannot take for granted that the things are correct. I know I'm running higher pressure than stock but that's by choice. It may be that BSA arrived at 50psi spec because the pumps didn't have enough volume to retain anything greater when the motors were hot. End feeding without the bush improves the situation considerably and if I can have 60-80psi hot it means cold pressure may be around 100psi for a short period till it warms up. I've seen cars running high pressure 150psi + the reason we had a gauge in it was a blocked pickup and the warning light was coming on, pulled the sump and cleaned it and 150+ .

I put an oil gauge on a Commando for a guy once it was running about 5psi, we investigated and the end feed seal had a big piece missing from it. The gauge I bought came with a temp gauge and volt meter, $28 for the three. I'm sort of tempted to put the temp gauge sender in the oil tank but I can just put my hand on the tank or go off the oil pressure reading.

Ben's A65 750 was heating the oil to the point you couldn't hold your hand on the alloy tank, so it got an oil cooler as well.


mark
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791415 11/26/19 10:44 pm
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You want the oil to be 85+ anyway so you shouldn't be able to hold your hand on the tank.
Cold oil won't circulate as well or evaporate moisture. It will give you bigger pressure readings, that's all.

Lack of oil circulation is more of a problem than pressure most of the time. So many people use
stupid heavy oils that are not required. The 10psi per 1000rpm rule has been the bench mark for years
but in reality 30-40psi on most motors at running speed and temperature is fine. The a65 pump is massive
if just used for big-ends, with the relief valve set at 50 it would be open all the time anyway. I would suggest
using the unused return oil by piping it up to the head area, getting some use out of it.

Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791442 11/27/19 3:22 am
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"I would suggest using the unused return oil by piping it up to the head area, getting some use out of it"
If you remember, I suggested essentially that with a fix for the OPRV leakage but there was little interest and got muddied with conflicting requirements.
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbt...V/Search/true/hemophilic-oprv#Post591017

Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791443 11/27/19 4:55 am
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Not very hot here today about 75F but after some miles its down to 80psi @ 3,000rpm dropping to 35psi at 1100 idle. So this spring setting is good.

Totally different feeling of well being watching a gauge on 80psi buzzing along compared to watching one struggling on 40psi. 40psi on the old gauge was probably 90psi. And has obviously been reading wrong for the past 5 years or more.

Last edited by Mark Parker; 11/27/19 5:46 am.

mark
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: DMadigan] #791446 11/27/19 5:42 am
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
"I would suggest using the unused return oil by piping it up to the head area, getting some use out of it"
If you remember, I suggested essentially that with a fix for the OPRV leakage but there was little interest and got muddied with conflicting requirements.
http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbt...V/Search/true/hemophilic-oprv#Post591017


Remember it well Dave, i have employed a system like this for years.(venting the oprv to rocker feed.)

Still love the oil pump setup you did though, very good, if and when you make a few please let me know.

Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791449 11/27/19 6:26 am
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So is oil to the head idea for cooling or lubing something, nothing up there seems prone to wear? Oil squirting under the piston crowns could help cooling if it could be plumed in some way probably from outside sides of each bore, on the timing side a fitting in the deflection plate could be used, Though I remove that on end-fed motors.


mark
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791494 11/27/19 11:10 pm
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The head is the place where most heat is generated, greater oil flow over this area helps with cooling.
Especially around the exhaust valve area.
It also gets the oil up to a decent working temperature more quickly.
The small feed to the rocker gear can be enlarged and a small hole drilled in the centre boss on the exhaust rocker shaft to provide this.

Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791497 11/27/19 11:27 pm
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Ok, I saw that drilling, it probably helps to have the engine tilted forward a little as well. David Vizard in his porting book says he's seen inlet valves glowing red on the dyno. It's amazing engines keep running. And I guess why exhaust valve material took time to develop for reliability. It's why not to machine alloy away from the exhaust guide boss because it's taking heat away. I knew exhaust valves got hot but didn't know inlets did as well, not to glow red. The hemi head is better off than heads with side by side inlet and exhausts because the exhaust on one side can distort the inlet seat and steal hp.


mark
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791516 11/28/19 2:57 am
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Ive pondered about the crankcase bridge as a means to run some brake pipe with jets , but I can t be sure bits wont fall off it or how big a jet or where to tap in, bleed off the feed? An SV650 twin cylinder 650 has this arrangement, pointed at the piston crown underside. It makes around 70 HP off the shelf. It also has jets aimed at the gears in the transmission. Sign of the times I picked up a low mileage motor SV650 for £250 complete, they are now what A65 s were in the 1970s. cheap.


71 Devimead A65 750
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The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791518 11/28/19 3:09 am
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Puma did a mod for weslakes along those lines.
I think they used a couple of modded diesel injectors and timed the pulse.

Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791519 11/28/19 3:45 am
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At 5000 RPM the pistons are at+/-20 degrees of BDC for 1.3 msec. Hardly worth the mechanical valving or electronics compared to just routing the OPRV waste to the oil jets.
Porsche made a piston oiler consisting of small tube that slipped inside a hole in the piston pin boss for the lower half of the stroke. During the upper half of the stroke it squirted the bottom of the crown.
On the triple I want to try rerouting the tappet feeds to tee bars with jets under the pistons and a pressure valve that only opens at high pressure.
Most (I think) Japanese MC engines have pressure fed main and countershaft gearboxes instead of the BSA/TRIUMPH hole between the gear teeth and hope the oil does not get flung off before the teeth mesh system.

Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791522 11/28/19 5:23 am
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Just have the rods drilled, it's an option if you buy corrillo's

Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791533 11/28/19 10:41 am
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Honda used two groves per side on their Moto GP rods, MAP rods have just the one. This is a better idea than drilling, especially for alloy rods.

If you want to see how BSA drilled 1970 alloy rods I could take a photo of a cutaway rod, its not actually cut away it broke through the drillings and split the rod all the way up to just beneath the pin, and that's how I found it when I first stripped the Lightning back in the 70s, still hanging on with half the rod cracked away, I guess it had a bolt in both bits.

I don't know if I did grooves in the rods on my thing or planned it for the next time its apart.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


mark
Re: Rebuilding an A65 oil pump [Re: Mark Parker] #791534 11/28/19 11:03 am
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The drilling on the corrillo's goes up the centre of the rod to the small end
not like the bsa drilling which was used on the timing side only. That was
a carry over from earlier designs. The late steel capped beezer rods did not have that.
The notches cut in those rods is a good way to achieve a similar thing.
Corrillo's are steel so the centre drilling does not remove any where near as much
strength as with a forged alloy type. I trust corrillo's, they are bloody good.

I had a set of norton rods that split down from the small end probably were
cooked at some stage and cleaned up before i owned them, luckily didn't do
any real damage as i remember.

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