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A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case #789814 11/11/19 4:32 pm
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Lars Haglund Offline OP
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I am trying to fit a "new"cylinder barrel to the crank case but it will not slide down on the studs as smoothly as I expected. It ends with a gap at about 1mm at the back. I have checked the studs and all seems ok. I assembled Another engine about 15 years ago and I can't recall any problem with that one.
With all your experience from changing/ fitting barrels, is this to be expected and should the gap be elliminated when torque the nuts down or..?
I have been looking for marks of wear on the studs and can only find some at one of the studs with collar, 68-0531, but my feeling is that also some of the studs without collar also are tight..
Thanks!
Lars

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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789816 11/11/19 4:47 pm
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Most likely is that you are using a set of barrels from a different year to the crankcases. BSA changed the size of the barrel stud nuts sometime around 1970 to be 3/8 and I think the front inner studs were also moved. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me will add more information.


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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789818 11/11/19 5:18 pm
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Correct Gunner. 1970 and newer barrels can easily be identified by their recess in the lower cooling fin above the nuts.


There are no bosses in a technical discussion
(Doug Hele, 1919 - 2001)
Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789821 11/11/19 5:32 pm
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All parts, barrel, crank case and studs, are for the early model = 5/16".

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789825 11/11/19 5:51 pm
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Do you mean that it's sitting 1mm above the cases at the rear studs? Is the gap even across the entire width of the barrels?

Are the two case halves matched? (numbers on stamped the bottom frame mount) It is possible to bolt the crankcases together without the mounting surface being flush between the left and right side. Because of this, some people mount the barrels before tightening the case halves, then remove the barrels and finish tightening the top-center bolt. I've always just used the fingernail test to achieve this "close enough".

Maybe post a picture of what you are seeing.

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: MarcB] #789830 11/11/19 6:22 pm
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is it the stud pattern that's holding it up ... or something else ?

the tappet block casting is below the gasket face ... at the back
as are the tappets
and the camshaft

their ... "fit" ... could be the cause ?
.

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789843 11/11/19 7:10 pm
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Are either the cam or tappets new? If so, try removing the tappets and fitting the cylinder to be sure they are not the cause.

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789845 11/11/19 7:16 pm
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Maybe remove all the base studs, then test fit barrel, then add one stud at a time , that should point to the culprit, a round file for stretching holes might be needed or maybe the dowell studs with the collar are not entering the base holes correctly.


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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789846 11/11/19 7:17 pm
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If you have a 1mm gap then the barrel is going clearly past the threads and past the locating bits on the 2/3 studs which have them. It could be the paint is a bit thick or something as daft as that. Try fitting the barrel without a gasket and check again. Use a drill bit of the right size or tight size to the hole and trust by hand, clearing any paint out if there is any.


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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789858 11/11/19 9:02 pm
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I have been out for a while.. Try to answer your questions. The halves have matching numbers. The crank, conrods and camshaft are all in. The crank case halves are mounted together with Hylomar in between. No pistons or tappets. Old camshaft. I have taken all the studs out and the barrel fits flush on to the crank case. Of course then only by looking down to the holes to estimate that the barrel is in the correct position. Measured all studs and holes in the barrel and they all seems to be ok. All studs easily goes through the holes. I think the holes for the studs with collar are 3/8" and the other ones 11/32"(?). Difficult to get drill bits in inch in Sweden..

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789861 11/11/19 9:50 pm
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Make a simple tool to clean the barrel flange holes from a steel rod/ old nail, about 5- 6 mm diameter, split with hack saw for 2 inches, fit 100 grit wet n dry in slot, use a pistol drill and the tool to thoroughly clean all the holes. Particularly the dowel holes, look for burrs or casting lumps that get in the way, dress off with a file. Test fit with just the dowel studs, if that goes OK the rest should be fine.


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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789868 11/11/19 10:43 pm
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Thanks, Gavin. I will try that. I will also check the collars on the studs once more. I didn't pay enough attention when I disassembled the Engine regarding the studs. When starting assembling again I had 6 studs with collars(from 3 different Engines in the same box..) and dimension at the collars varies between 9,1- up to 9,5mm. I used the 2 which was closest to 9,5mm but on this Engine it might have been some of the smaller ones from the start. Anyone have any information about which size is the original diameter of the collar and if BSA could have grinded them down from the start when needed? Anyone else experienced the same problem as me when fitting the barrel?

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789871 11/11/19 11:24 pm
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only ... 2 dowel studs at used to locate the centerline
Parallel to the crankshaft .
the other six studs are not as thick in the middle .
too many dowel studs ? throwing it off ?

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789874 11/11/19 11:32 pm
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Use your pistol drill and wet n dry to polish the dowell outers, since you have more than required use selective assembly, pick the ones that fit best after they have been cleaned up. its quite likely that at least one will have been removed with vice grips or worse leaving raised burrs on the collars


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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: quinten] #789875 11/11/19 11:56 pm
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Originally Posted by quinten

only ... 2 dowel studs at used to locate the centerline
Parallel to the crankshaft .
the other six studs are not as thick in the middle .
too many dowel studs ? throwing it off ?




Bingo! (An American expression meaning, you hit the nail on the head (sorry, another metaphor)). There should only be two dowel studs.


Mark Z

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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789905 11/12/19 7:47 am
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Ok. I will also to get another barrel, just for checking. Only 2 dowel studs are used. I understand that the important thing is the position and fitting of the dowel studs. The other ones doesn´t matter.

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789907 11/12/19 9:35 am
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I dont think the barrels will fit at all if more than two dowel studs are used,
No Bingo.
Only two of the base flange holes have clearance for the dowel collars. pretty obvious when the holes are inspected.
Its more likely that the variations in dowel collar size are at the root of the problem. or a build up of old gasket cement on collar ODs is causing the poor fit.
When assembling the case halves I like to leave the case fasteners loose, / then temporarily fit the barrels snugged down tight , then tighten the case halve fasteners, then remove barrels , to access the case halve fastener in the case mouth, this should give best alignment.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/12/19 9:40 am.

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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789910 11/12/19 12:21 pm
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After a small grinding and polishing the other barrel I got fits perfect but the one I want to use would still not fits. I believe I now understand what is wrong. It seems that the housing for the tappets are different and the one I will use has a bigger one. I am confused, both have the same casting no. 68-44. I should add a Picture but I don't know how to do it. It is waiting at my desk top...

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789911 11/12/19 1:10 pm
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Casting numbers can be used to make many variations, unless you know the final part number what you have is mystery until you do lots of side but side comparison s.

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789917 11/12/19 4:02 pm
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It could just be a minor shift of the pattern when cast, is it possible to relieve the fouling parts? i am not aware of changes to the cam follower block area. To add a picture you upload the pic from computer to a host site such as Flickr or Imgur, once uploaded use the link from the host site to post here, its a bit clumsy. Or sign up here as a member , small fee, and post direct from your PC using the attachment manager on the full edit page.


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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789931 11/12/19 9:24 pm
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Used a black marker and it seems that the house for the tappets interfere with the case halve fastener bridge in the case mouth at the right side looking from behind at the Engine. It just from the top and maybe 5mm down. I will choose to grind some material away from the house for the tappets.
I pulled out two more cases to check, all three in this comparision are from making year 1967, two starts with A65 SA.. and one with A65 LA.. The two I had in stock have the case halve fastener bridge in the case mouth lower down from the mouth than the one I am going to use(matching no.). So probably the barrel should fit on those two with no grinding. I also took a Picture and try to post both this and the one of two barrels tomorrow.

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789932 11/12/19 10:22 pm
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Interesting. Both the barrels I have had fitted to my bike have been the earlier type pre 66, my cases are 68.


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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: gavin eisler] #789947 11/13/19 4:05 am
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
I dont think the barrels will fit at all if more than two dowel studs are used,
No Bingo.
Only two of the base flange holes have clearance for the dowel collars. pretty obvious when the holes are inspected.


Right, and sorry for jumping to a conclusion. Yes, more than two dowel studs would cause the barrel to sit about 1/4" high, not .1".

Reading on, I see that Lars has isolated the problem to the tappet housing vs. the crankcase bridge. That's a new one on me.


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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789952 11/13/19 7:53 am
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Have you checked this with micrometer blue or similar? To see if there is actually fouling?


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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789959 11/13/19 11:52 am
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I wonder if the crankcase barrel flange has been machined down to flatten the join / raise Comp Ratio. Its not unheard of?
That might give the problems you have encountered.


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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: gavin eisler] #789973 11/13/19 5:07 pm
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i see what you're up against .
well done with the magic marker trick .
the right side casting " finger" is higher .
( milled with the gasket face .? )
it never occurred to me that it could be in the way and impinge on the tappet casting
[Linked Image from i.ebayimg.com].
this upper pic , snagged from eBay ,
looks like someone's filed the right side
to make space for the tappet casting .
...
and another pic showing the "finger" lower
so less in the way
[Linked Image from picclickimg.com]

Last edited by quinten; 11/13/19 9:38 pm.
Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #789991 11/13/19 9:54 pm
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I found some marking at the barrels, 10/69 at the one I going to use and 51/65 at the reference. My guess, right or wrong that means week/ year of make. Conclusion following my guess is that the "smaller" house of the tappets on the older barrel should give no problem for that reason on any cases. The housing of tappets interfere with the bridge at the side towards the rear, not at the top. The bridge at the case I will use is flat to the gasket surface all the way out. Tried to post the Pictures according to Gavin´s instruction without success. Loong weekend. I will be back on Monday.

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #790573 11/19/19 2:43 pm
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I have now grinded down the front side to the right of the tappet housing. At the corner it is about 1mm down and diminish to zero about 10mm in. The height of the grinding is about 15mm from bottom of the barrel. The barrel fits perfect now. The studs with collar was grinded and polished down from the approx. 9,50mm to about 9,45mm. Any opinion to if should get new ones or use the ones I grinded down?
Still problems with Pictures...

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #790581 11/19/19 4:17 pm
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Presumably the cylinder fits without movement?
You should blue the tappets and cam, install the cylinder with the tappets and turn over the cam to see if the contact is centered on the lobes.
Perhaps more explanation of how you are trying to post pictures?

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #790584 11/19/19 4:40 pm
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The ground collars should be OK, after fitting pistons and rings before finally tightening the barrels down , spin the motor over a few times , if there is no obvious binding ( there shouldnt be, unless something is seriously out of whack) , you are good for the final nip up. Daves suggestion for bluing is a good idea.


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Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #790597 11/19/19 6:18 pm
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Yes, the cylinder doesn´t move. Thanks for your advises. I will do that.
Regarding the pictures I signed in for Flickr but then trying to log in it says that it can´t find my mail address..

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #790623 11/19/19 9:35 pm
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Your E-mail address has to include the full extension ([email protected] or [email protected], ...)

Re: A65 - fitting a cylinder barrel to a crank case [Re: Lars Haglund] #790673 11/20/19 11:45 am
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Tried that but no success..

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