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Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn #789617 11/09/19 7:59 pm
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Norcoastal Offline OP
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I’m in my final assembly of my 1968 B44 441 engine and when I tighten the inner cover, the primary shaft won’t turn.

When I loosen the bolts that keep the inner cover on, it spins.

I did everything by the manual. I didn’t use any parts (washers, spacers) that weren’t in the parts manual.

Anyone have any ideas?

There are no fluids in the crankcase, I wonder if it needs to be lubricated to spin?

Just seems odd, I mean this is tight. When I put a chain on the main sprocket, I can’t get it to move.

Thoughts?

Help!!


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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789620 11/09/19 8:19 pm
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¿
are you talking
Crankshaft... or transmission main shaft ?

Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789623 11/09/19 8:45 pm
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kommando Online Content
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Is this the round cover behind the clutch and fed onto the gearbox mainshaft with a seal on the centre.

Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789624 11/09/19 9:16 pm
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It’s the mainshaft for the transmission. The crank turns correctly.


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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: kommando] #789625 11/09/19 9:17 pm
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Yes, ther is the felt seal between the round cover and the main sprocket


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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789627 11/09/19 9:51 pm
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The seal will cause drag on the sprocket but it should still turn, where did you put the cast in pip, it needs to be away from the chain or just removed.The

Also the felt washer should be impregnated with grease and squashed to fit the space plus a bit.

Last edited by kommando; 11/09/19 10:44 pm. Reason: Added felt washer
Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: kommando] #789630 11/09/19 10:33 pm
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do you have your Rupert's ratio handy ?

cant remember what you have done here ..,so

1. was the tranny good , or free to turn ... before the rebuild ?
or
2. a gear box assembled from parts
or
3. a gearbox that turned free ... but now contains some new parts ?
gears
forks
bearings
... shims ...

5 . does the tranny select all gears and neutral... if the cover is not nipped up too tightly ?
this would indicate correct assembly ... with a fat shim

Rupert's ratio page 95 ( adjusting main shaft in float )

the mainshaft and sleeve gear can be fitted alone ... and end float measured to the face of the
first gear pinion ( with a straight edge accross the joint-face )

when i read it ... eight or nine times ... it starts making sense

Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789633 11/09/19 10:47 pm
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Thank you. Great suggestions.

I believe that this tranny was complete, but I built it from all it’s parts. What small parts were missing I bought new ones.

I never ran through the gears when I was putting it together, so that’s where I’ll start first.

I must have done something wrong.

Thanks again for the suggestions.

I’ll let you know how it goes


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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789637 11/09/19 11:00 pm
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You need to make sure which shaft is binding, it could be the layshaft, remove the layshaft and shifter forks stuff, re assemble with mainshaft, gears , thrust washers alone. if it spins free , re assemble with no lay shaft end thrust washers , check lay shaft endfloat, adjust thrust washer thickness if required. If it doesnt then look hard at the mainshaft bearings and end thrust washers.Make sure all bearings are correctly seated if they have been changed.
Do not assume that shafts from a box of parts are straight, check straightness between centres on a lathe with a clock gauge.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/09/19 11:03 pm.

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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789638 11/09/19 11:33 pm
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More great suggestion thank you and yes, I replaced the main bearings.

I’ll look at that last tho, I’d hate to open up the cases again.

Last edited by Norcoastal; 11/09/19 11:35 pm.

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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789660 11/10/19 4:10 am
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I had this happen on a B44 a few years back, i heated cases to install bearings, and the trans main bearing cocked a little when it cooled. warmed up the case and seated it and all was good. now i go back and seat the bearing as it cools.

Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789675 11/10/19 8:47 am
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If you can fix it without opening the cases please let us know what you did.


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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789694 11/10/19 2:11 pm
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Interesting. I did heat the cases to remove the old bearings but I’m sure I set the new bearings in correctly. I guess the only way I’ll know is when I tear it apart.

I have a feeling that one of the spacers is wrong or too thick.

I didn’t discover this until I tightened the kickstart spring bolt. I just need to loosen that slightly and the shaft turns. It has to be within the trans spacing...


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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: kommando] #789695 11/10/19 2:13 pm
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The felt washer is squished, but I didn’t put grease on it, I can still do that. But this is TIGHT. A felt washer wouldn’t do what is happening. It has to be a spacer


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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789696 11/10/19 2:28 pm
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Inner covers were machined with the crankcases as matched sets so the holes were in line. Mixing another inner cover with crankcases can give these issues from mid alignment. Best option may be another inner cover but it is a lottery, yours does not sound far out, a sharp tap in one direction may fix it or removing the closest locating dowels so the cover can move a bit more. Be careful you do not move the issue to the camshaft .

Last edited by kommando; 11/10/19 2:31 pm.
Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789706 11/10/19 4:51 pm
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Thanks Kommando, not a bad thought at all.

A couple things, I tore out the transmission and the clutch and timing chain.

When I did that, all the roller bearings fell out of the clutch hub, I think I got them all back but it “looks” like I’m one roller bearing short and I can’t find it anywhere.

Does anyone know how many roller bearings are supposed to be in the clutch hub? I think I’m counting 25.

Also, the thrust washer on the end of the transmission shaft was purchased separately. It looks like it may be too thick and binding up the shaft. I need to investigate this a little further.


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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789707 11/10/19 5:01 pm
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The "timing chain" is usually called the primary drive chain.
usually the workshop manual has useful info like number of clutch rollers, sizes etc.
If a thrust washer is too thick it can be thinned down by figure of eight lapping on a flat surface with some 200 grit paper and a drop or two of oil, slow , but possible..


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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789708 11/10/19 5:31 pm
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Good news,

I found the missing roller bearing and I put the clutch back together I got lucky.

Also, when tearing apart the transmission I noticed that I had TWO spacers on the layshaft where there is supposed to be one.

I didn’t notice the one that was there because it was embedded within the gear and it look like it was part of the gear.

When I put the transmission back together and tighten the inner case, the main sprocket spun properly.

What I’m going to do now, is put the transmission back out, and go through the gears as specified in the service manual.

Once I get everything together I’ll let you guys know how it goes.

While I’m doing this, I’m stripping the paint off of the original METAL shooting star gas tank.

Today’s a fun day!


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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789712 11/10/19 5:39 pm
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The parts book shows 25 clutch rollers. As for the two spacers on the mainshaft there are three thicknesses for each to chose from. Give us the measurements and we can tell you what you are dealing with. As well there are two thicknesses for the thrust washer on the layshaft.

Gordo


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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789713 11/10/19 5:40 pm
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Pretty certain it's 25 rollers in the clutch, you stop fitting them when there is space for 1 more roller,, this gives space between the rollers.

Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789715 11/10/19 5:52 pm
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Suggest you have a look at the tech info on the B50 website which has some details on how to blueprint the gearbox, see This Link. Also worth reading the Rupert Ratio unit singles manual which has details on gearbox rebuilding.

Its worth spending some time checking over the gearbox components so that you have a good gear change. Problems can be caused by weak cam-plate springs, worn selector forks, worn dogs on gears and lack of shimming. Usually it;s 3'rd gear which goes first, have a look at This Thread about how to ensure the gears are fully engaged.


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Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: gunner] #789717 11/10/19 6:21 pm
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yeah , 25 clutch rollers ,
they are 3/16" x 3/16" ... they are fairly cheap to replace if at all worn .
https://www.bsaunitsingles.com/item.wws?sku=40-3206SET .

Re: Primary Shaft Too Tight To Turn [Re: Norcoastal] #789721 11/10/19 6:46 pm
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Yes, got all the rollers in. Reinstalled the trans after going through all the gears as per the service manual.

All the gears and the forks look good, but I’m not an expert.

Got the clutch and strator all back together and tightened the side cases.

All is good. No tightness of the drive shaft outside of normal friction.

New clutch plates and the clutch springs seem strong.

Who know how she’ll run, but I think I’m good for now.

Got to get back to stripping paint!


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