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Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Allan Gill] #789194 11/04/19 10:59 pm
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
If you have access to an over, pre-heat the over to at least 250 degrees, higher won't hurt it.

Drop the part in cold and leave it a short space of time, with bearings they will drop out in the oven, the shafts might need a tap (unless its the rockers which are holding the shafts in) The aluminium expands at a much faster rate than the steel, and is a better process than the blow torch as your applying as much heat (directly) to the bearing as well.


Ill give that a try. I have a couple small ovens.

I made some good progress with cleaning and disassembly. I made the crank pinion tool and it came right off. I crafted a simple slide hammer that threaded into the cam and it popped right out. Pinion and oil pump gear are badly rusted and will be replaced.

The casting around the tappets needed some heat to let go and I also loosened up the clutch linkage while I was there. I am seeing plenty of corrosion but not much wear. Getting down to brass tacks.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr




Last edited by Frank the Welder; 11/04/19 11:03 pm. Reason: errors, omissions
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Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789233 11/05/19 8:24 am
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Your workshop looks to be a world of limitless possibilities that would never be realised if it were mine. Unlikely I will have much helpful to add by will be watching with interest.

Rod


So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: R Moulding] #789314 11/06/19 2:59 am
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by R Moulding

Your workshop looks to be a world of limitless possibilities that would never be realised if it were mine. Unlikely I will have much helpful to add by will be watching with interest.

Rod


I would like to challenge you a bit. First off thank you for the compliment. Second. If you see limitless possibilities untapped then your voice needs to heard. I have 50 tons of machines so we have that covered. What would you do if you owned my shop and were my boss? I recently scored a A50 from early 1970's from a hoarders stash. The photos were before seven hours of recovery, I pick it up later this week and post photos. LMK as I have no ideas.



[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789465 11/07/19 11:34 pm
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I left the shop early Wednesday morning expecting to pick up the old A50 and my truck gave up the ghost. Back to the B44.

When pulling the motor apart only one of the six small screws that hold the primary case back cover plate came out. I used a small center drill to remove the heads then the TIG welder to add stems and handles to the remaining bits of screws.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

The heat from the fire had somehow caused the exhaust valve spring to fail without melting the rocker box so I started with that one. The retainer and keepers were bonded to the valve stem so I had to cut them apart. I was able to get the intake side apart. Ironically the exhaust valve (which looks like stainless) survived and the intake was completely rotted.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Termites.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Ill polish the combustion chamber tomorrow and see what is left.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789545 11/08/19 11:59 pm
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I made some progress in the morning and a little more in the afternoon. I got a close look at the valves and both have heavy corrosion. The good news is the head seems to be in really good shape except may be the valve guides. It seems to have .003"+ at stem which adds up to a lot at the head but the valve seats are very flush and should clean up. I would like true up the valve assembly but it's beyond my current skill level. I can't even imagine the fixture required to bore a hole Concentric with a valve seat.

The combustion chamber had a lot of soot but looks like it will polish up quickly and the seats are in the right place. Ill call today a win.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


So I am wondering about this spring seat. It won't come off! The other just fell off but nothing breaks this loose. !

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Thanks again.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789652 11/10/19 12:41 am
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I spent a couple more hours on the head today. I used a hand held belt sander/die grinders to remove a lot of the corrosion in the combustion chamber. I did most of the initial grinding with stripped down abrasive "cut-off" wheel that was worn to a diameter just smaller than that of the combustion chamber. This allows me to move a lot of material without diving into the valve seats. There are still a lot of pores.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

I had made a couple half-hearted attempts at removing the pipe stub from the head but finally decided to split the tube with a cutting torch and it came right out. I had a lot of galvanic corrosion. I am thinking about boring the exhaust exit and threading in a steel sleeve to mate with the exhaust.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789662 11/10/19 4:58 am
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its looks like you got a little aggressive
Cleaning out the head ...
do i see some rounding over ... where the hemisphere meets the fire ring ?

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789666 11/10/19 7:16 am
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Anti detonation protection is the removal of sharp edges, good to go. Silicon for baths makes a surprisingly good seal for the exhaust pipe into the head so no fancy inserts are normally needed unless the engine mounts come loose and are left loose, the increased vibration tells you to look at them.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: quinten] #789747 11/10/19 10:49 pm
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Originally Posted by quinten
its looks like you got a little aggressive
Cleaning out the head ...
do i see some rounding over ... where the hemisphere meets the fire ring ?


May be, ill look l close tomorrow. I spent a lot of time scraping heavy deposits of galvanic by-product from the fire ring mating surface and it could probably use a skim if I end putting the head on a lathe.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: kommando] #789749 11/10/19 11:07 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
Anti detonation protection is the removal of sharp edges, good to go. Silicon for baths makes a surprisingly good seal for the exhaust pipe into the head so no fancy inserts are normally needed unless the engine mounts come loose and are left loose, the increased vibration tells you to look at them.


Cool, So what do you think about the surface imperfections of the combustion chamber? When I dismantled the bike the lower MM bolt was cheezy all-thread but the other points were all proud but I haven't measured them yet to verify width/angle.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789762 11/11/19 12:49 am
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"So what do you think about the surface imperfections of the combustion chamber?"
IMHO the pitting in the combustion chamber is not a worry--once the engine is running it will soon get filled with carbon deposits.
HTH

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: quinten] #789884 11/12/19 1:05 am
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Originally Posted by quinten
its looks like you got a little aggressive
Cleaning out the head ...
do i see some rounding over ... where the hemisphere meets the fire ring ?


At the bottom you can see the radius you mention quite clearly but it looks as though the fire ring mating surface is still in tact. I was aggressive for sure.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Last edited by Frank the Welder; 11/12/19 1:05 am.
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789886 11/12/19 1:50 am
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[Linked Image from b50.org]
nice pictures .
what i saw
may not matter in the long run ... but that is messing with the squish area .
it may be an improvement that smarter minds than mine may known about .
your pic reminded me of one time , when i did the same kind of rounding over .
the plactic wire brush i was using was way more aggressive than I thought it would be .
the job was done in like 3 seconds ... and my first thought was
... well , bribike won't let me use the word [***] ... but the word smelled the same as poop

btw ... the lip isnt the sealing surface ... the copper gasket is
... once the gasket is fitted ... there should be a 0.003 ~ 0.004 gap .
( measured differently as in pic ) ... a feeler gauge between head and cyl ... plus 3 or4 thous
determines the gasket thickness ...

if you start decking the head or cylinder lip
you need to mind the final installation gap .
[Linked Image from b50.org]

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789890 11/12/19 3:22 am
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Quinten makes a very good point about checking the thickness of the sealing surface and therefore what thickness gasket to use. Many of the pattern gaskets are made from copper sheet thinner than original so try to find an original one if you can.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789915 11/12/19 3:09 pm
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Peter Quick has the correct head gaskets.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: kommando] #789937 11/12/19 11:56 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
Peter Quick has the correct head gaskets.



He is local and I met with him a couple weeks ago to purchase some tools and he was super helpful.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: quinten] #789939 11/13/19 12:12 am
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by quinten
[Linked Image from b50.org]
nice pictures .
what i saw
may not matter in the long run ... but that is messing with the squish area .
it may be an improvement that smarter minds than mine may known about .
your pic reminded me of one time , when i did the same kind of rounding over .
the plactic wire brush i was using was way more aggressive than I thought it would be .
the job was done in like 3 seconds ... and my first thought was
... well , bribike won't let me use the word [***] ... but the word smelled the same as poop

btw ... the lip isnt the sealing surface ... the copper gasket is
... once the gasket is fitted ... there should be a 0.003 ~ 0.004 gap .
( measured differently as in pic ) ... a feeler gauge between head and cyl ... plus 3 or4 thous
determines the gasket thickness ...

if you start decking the head or cylinder lip
you need to mind the final installation gap .
[Linked Image from b50.org]


I have made some big mistakes during dismantling and ruined my barrel so I know the word....

Once I get through the work on the head getting it to fit the motor should be easier.


The head will fit the oven.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #790086 11/15/19 12:15 am
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I had planned to post the photo above in the BSA forum and put it here instead.

Onward, I got the oil pump apart and it looks pretty good. You can see factory grinding marks on most of the surfaces. One gear is particularly tight in it's bore. There are also small scars from burrs left over from the gear shaping process. Ill stone the gear ends and surface grind the steel end cap and and repeat the process as required.

This image is the tight gear. Secondary on pressure side.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Flash makes great contrast, help for old eyes.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #790087 11/15/19 12:16 am
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I had planned to post the photo above in the BSA forum and put it here instead.

Onward, I got the oil pump apart and it looks pretty good. You can see factory grinding marks on most of the surfaces. One gear is particularly tight in it's bore. There are also small scars from burrs left over from the gear shaping process. Ill stone the gear ends and surface grind the steel end cap and and repeat the process as required.

This image is the tight gear. Secondary on pressure side.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Flash makes great contrast, help for old eyes.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #790125 11/15/19 12:12 pm
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If you have access to a vertical mill don't finally assemble the pump for a bit, I will post a mod to eliminate the leak from the feedside to the return along the shafts so when the bike is standing the oil does not fill the sump. Just need to get out to the workshop and put some time in, it's a variation on the SMR mod to the Norton gear pump so not unique or very original, just never seen it done on a Unit Single pump. If I take too long I can post pics of my Norton pump with the same mod and the part numbers for the X ring seals for Unit Single pump.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #790151 11/15/19 6:47 pm
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Hi Kommando, I'm all ears for details of the oil pump mod you have mentioned for unit singles. Earlier this year I modified the pump on my A65 so that oil cannot migrate from the feed side gears to the scavenge side gears and will therefore slow/stop any wet sumping.

Using a lathe I modified the two oil-pump spindles so that an O ring could be fitted between the pressure and scavenge side. Some material was also removed from the inner faces of the scavenge gears so that an O ring could be installed.

In addition to the above work, there were some other critical areas needing attention:-
- careful attention was paid to the pump gasket surfaces where they join the cases, ensuring the studs didn't have any pulled up metal
- the spring used to seat the ball was replaced for an OEM replacement as was the ball. The ball was ground in to seat against the pump feed outlet hole
- the gasket was carefully checked for alignment with the holes on the pump. Where the gasket was found to be obscuring the pump feed or return holes, the gasket was modified to align with the holes.
- oil leaks can occur from between the pump body and top/bottom plates, you may need to shellac or some form of loctite to ensure no leaks

Just my tuppence worth


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: kommando] #790185 11/16/19 12:09 am
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kommando
If you have access to a vertical mill don't finally assemble the pump for a bit, I will post a mod to eliminate the leak from the feedside to the return along the shafts so when the bike is standing the oil does not fill the sump. Just need to get out to the workshop and put some time in, it's a variation on the SMR mod to the Norton gear pump so not unique or very original, just never seen it done on a Unit Single pump. If I take too long I can post pics of my Norton pump with the same mod and the part numbers for the X ring seals for Unit Single pump.



I am all ears.

Originally Posted by gunner
Hi Kommando, I'm all ears for details of the oil pump mod you have mentioned for unit singles. Earlier this year I modified the pump on my A65 so that oil cannot migrate from the feed side gears to the scavenge side gears and will therefore slow/stop any wet sumping.

Using a lathe I modified the two oil-pump spindles so that an O ring could be fitted between the pressure and scavenge side. Some material was also removed from the inner faces of the scavenge gears so that an O ring could be installed.

In addition to the above work, there were some other critical areas needing attention:-
- careful attention was paid to the pump gasket surfaces where they join the cases, ensuring the studs didn't have any pulled up metal
- the spring used to seat the ball was replaced for an OEM replacement as was the ball. The ball was ground in to seat against the pump feed outlet hole
- the gasket was carefully checked for alignment with the holes on the pump. Where the gasket was found to be obscuring the pump feed or return holes, the gasket was modified to align with the holes.
- oil leaks can occur from between the pump body and top/bottom plates, you may need to shellac or some form of loctite to ensure no leaks

Just my tuppence worth


I welcome your additions.

I assembled the pump and it was still very tight. I have a surface grinder that is pretty accurate so I first touched the outside of the steel end cap with a fine file then ground the inside surface (wear patters existed) and now it was really tight. I squared up the gears (they were close but center proud) and ground the thrust washers to be the same thickness. I then had a high spot in the input gear and finally the bottom end is a little twisted but I am really close. One long gear is clearly sitting at a very slight angle and I am not sure it isn't being pushed out by gear pressure. I am going to paint up the gears and try to detect a pattern.

Easy to find thick tapered thrust washer after first cut of nearly nothing.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

I hope all this doesn't go to hell when the pump is bolted on.



Last edited by Frank the Welder; 11/16/19 12:45 am.
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: gunner] #790495 11/18/19 10:57 pm
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Originally Posted by gunner
Hi Kommando, I'm all ears for details of the oil pump mod you have mentioned for unit singles. Earlier this year I modified the pump on my A65 so that oil cannot migrate from the feed side gears to the scavenge side gears and will therefore slow/stop any wet sumping.

Using a lathe I modified the two oil-pump spindles so that an O ring could be fitted between the pressure and scavenge side. Some material was also removed from the inner faces of the scavenge gears so that an O ring could be installed.

In addition to the above work, there were some other critical areas needing attention:-
- careful attention was paid to the pump gasket surfaces where they join the cases, ensuring the studs didn't have any pulled up metal
- the spring used to seat the ball was replaced for an OEM replacement as was the ball. The ball was ground in to seat against the pump feed outlet hole
- the gasket was carefully checked for alignment with the holes on the pump. Where the gasket was found to be obscuring the pump feed or return holes, the gasket was modified to align with the holes.
- oil leaks can occur from between the pump body and top/bottom plates, you may need to shellac or some form of loctite to ensure no leaks

Just my tuppence worth


This is all good info. I don't know the A65 pump but I may be able to counter-bore for an O-ring under the thrust washers on the B44, V series pump. I should add a bronze bushing while I have the center located. The zinc housing seems to resist wear pretty well.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #790502 11/18/19 11:31 pm
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So, I notice there is an access panel in the chain case cover, a distributor drive port and a points access cover. Do I need any of these? I am using electronic ignition.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr



Also, I have been struggling with getting the gear removed from clutch arm spindle. Any tips?

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Last edited by Frank the Welder; 11/18/19 11:33 pm.
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #790549 11/19/19 10:38 am
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Gear, its a left hand thread, replace the plunger into the hole and then draw it to the back of the hole using the cable lever, once it bottoms out it should then unscrew with sufficient applied torque to the lever, protect the cover.

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