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"Spitfire" #789303 11/06/19 12:31 am
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gavin eisler Offline OP
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Iconic name, BSA capitalised on the famous airplanes success by naming their hot tuned twins after the famous WW2 aircraft

Lightning too.
Seems like copy write lawyers were less aggressive then, or planes got new names more often.

Turns out RR made some of the Merlin engines for the Spits around Glasgow in Scotland, probably what encouraged the Clyde Bank Blitz, Im no a historian , please correct if wrong. If So, the motor that made the plane famous that BSA pinched the name from was made in Scotland, well some at least. .
I always wondered why there were were loads of cheap micrometers in the markets ( Barras ) in Glasgow. Right into the late 80s, I bought a boxed set of Shardlow Mics for a fiver. 1 - 6 inch, about 1/2 useable, damp got the better of the rest.
.



Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/06/19 9:52 am. Reason: changed most to some.

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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789308 11/06/19 1:30 am
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Could not find any data regarding aircraft type matched with production facility.
But here are the overall production figures by location:

Packard - U.S.: 55,523 engines
Derby: 32,377 engines
Manchester: 30,428 engines
Crewe: 26,065 engines
Glasgow: 23,675 engines

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Merlin

My Dad flew bombardier in Lancs.
We got him a ride in the Mynarski Lancaster before he passed.

The sound brings a tear to my eye.


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789311 11/06/19 1:44 am
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Gavin, no idea, sorry
But I do have an interesting piece of trivia concerning the BSA Spitfire.
It won the very first motorcycle race at Amaroo Park Raceway which was opened in 1967, Hosting its first motorcycle meeting on 26 February with a 30 lap production race won by Larry Simons on a BSA Spitfire in heavy rain.


Current: 2 x 1966 A65S, 1 x 1967 A65SA, 1 x 69/70? A65LA space Y, 1 X D14/4 & 1 x B175
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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789316 11/06/19 4:12 am
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A guy I knew in Tathra, where we used to live, worked in a factory in Sydney building RR Merlins he said they could hear them being tested right across town. Another neighbor, I think was Dutch, he worked on DB engines as forced labour. He told me how they made them blow up, They did a few and got lined up and searched etc but as no one was going to say what they were doing and the techs couldn't work it out so they continued on causing the occasional displeasure even with techs checking all they did.

Australia imported lots of aero engines but also built planes. Like P51s, Boomerangs, trainers, and a thing based, sort of, on a Mustang with Griffon engine it was built and tested, plus twin engine Beaufighters and others, plus later Sabers except with RR jet engines.

I read about a couple of experienced pilots who compared the P51 to an equivalent Spitfire, to see which was the better fighter, at the end of their testing they shared the same opinion; the Spitfire would win every time, provided I guess the pilot knew the P51 was there.


mark
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789320 11/06/19 6:12 am
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The irony is that the BF109 began life using RR engines before Germany could build a suitable engine.
And ended life in Spain using Merlin engines once DB engines were unavailable. It was these Spanish 109s which flew in the film The Battle of Britain.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789321 11/06/19 6:42 am
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
Turns out RR made most of the Merlin engines for the Spits around Glasgow in Scotland, probably what encouraged the Clyde Bank Blitz, Im no a historian , please correct if wrong. If So, the motor that made the plane famous that BSA pinched the name from was made in Scotland, .
Rather coincidentally, there was a show on the TV last night called "Scotland From the Air" which brought up that very point about the Merlin engines.

Lots of interesting stuff on this thread from the other guys as well.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789326 11/06/19 11:57 am
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Allan Gill Offline
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The real hommage would be to put a merlin engine in to an A65 frame laughing

I always thought the merlins were built in Derby for the spitfires, didn't the US use merlins in the Mosquito?


beerchug
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789330 11/06/19 1:38 pm
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Hillbilly bike Offline
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The Merlin engines made in the USA under license by Packard had many differences from the British made engines...Much of it was to simplify production and to suit American engineering practices for mass production by factory workers rather than built by hand in Britian by skilled workers.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789331 11/06/19 1:58 pm
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Don't forget the "Meteor" engine which was basically a "Merlin" without its supercharger and its direction of rotation reversed, these went into cromwell/challenger/centurion tanks.
Many Meteors were built from crashed merlins and built by both RR and Rover


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Allan Gill] #789333 11/06/19 3:03 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
I always thought the merlins were built in Derby for the spitfires,


Packard Merlins were also fitted to British aircraft. The Spitfire Mk XVI had a Packard Merlin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire_(late_Merlin-powered_variants)

"The Mk XVI was the same as the Mk IX in nearly all respects except for the engine, a Merlin 266. The Merlin 266 was the Merlin 66 and was built under licence in the USA by the Packard Motor Company. The "2" was added as a prefix in order to avoid confusion with the engines, as they required different tooling."

Packard only got the contract to build Merlins as it was originally offered to Ford but Henry Ford although no longer in charge flatly refused to allow 'his' company to have anything to do with it.


Originally Posted by Allan Gill
didn't the US use merlins in the Mosquito?


Do you mean P51 Mustang? Mosquito did too but that was one of 'ours' (de Havilland).





Last edited by L.A.B.; 11/06/19 5:48 pm.
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: L.A.B.] #789334 11/06/19 3:29 pm
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Originally Posted by L.A.B.


Packard only got the contract to build Merlins as it was originally offered to Ford but Henry Ford although no longer in charge flatly refused to allow 'his' company to have anything to do with it.
.






Ford was a pacifist and did not at that time din't want to build the tools of war...A bit later he changed his mind and tried to build his own V12 aircraft engine but the US military wasn't interested. Ford did eventually build many B-24 bombers and Pratt & Whitney engines...The US military in general did not really like liquid cooled engines because they were more subject ot battle damage than air cooled...But the P51 was such a outstanding air frame (built by North Amercian avaition without gov't funding) and had excellent performance with the low altitude Allison engine, it was a natural for high altitude bomber escort with a dual stage supercharged Merlin. The Allison got better fuel milege than the Merlin but they were a small company and lacked the engineering to get non turbocharged high altitude engines into service.The British airframe manufacturers dealt directly with the companies making engines..The Americans always had to deal with interference of unrealistic military demands on new war planes..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789357 11/06/19 7:55 pm
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I always remember my old man (Australian Army North Africa and New Guinea ) saying that one time he saw a Lancaster bomber limping across the sky on ONE engine......unreal, he never knew if the Heros on board made it to an airfield.

Lest we forget.

Last edited by Ignoramus; 11/06/19 7:58 pm.

"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789381 11/07/19 1:21 am
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I live about 10 minutes from the old Packard plant in Detroit. A sad ending to a historic place. Also Packard supplied engines for the PT boats.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789401 11/07/19 6:38 am
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BrizzoBrit Offline
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Allan:

Not quite a full Merlin engine nor a BSA, but anyway!!

https://www.abc.net.au/local/photos/2015/08/19/4296075.htm

smile


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Hillbilly bike] #789405 11/07/19 8:03 am
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NickL Offline
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
The Merlin engines made in the USA under license by Packard had many differences from the British made engines...Much of it was to simplify production and to suit American engineering practices for mass production by factory workers rather than built by hand in Britian by skilled workers.


They also developed some great modifications such as roller rockers etc. When the US built merlins were fitted with the 'pressure carburetor'
designed by RR and built by Bendix-Stromberg it allowed negative g maneuvers without the engine cutting out or the consequent over richness.
The carb although relatively complicated was very much like single point fuel injection. Consequent fuel efficiency was greater too allowing very
long range. Most radial engines were 'gas-guzzlers' by comparison and needed larger frontal area airframes with a few exceptions such as the
FW190, a splendid aircraft. Radials always sounded like tractors as well, nothing like a lovely v12.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789412 11/07/19 10:35 am
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Well Nick.....while Wright radials tend to sound rough running.....the P&W R2800 makes music that, IMO, will rival the V12 music. Find a YouTube video of a Corsair on a low, fast pass......even better in person...

thumbsup


Never underestimate the human ability to elevate stupid to a whole new level!.
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: BrizzoBrit] #789415 11/07/19 12:38 pm
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Originally Posted by BrizzoBrit
Allan:

Not quite a full Merlin engine nor a BSA, but anyway!!

https://www.abc.net.au/local/photos/2015/08/19/4296075.htm

smile


As is oft the case, the ABC producers did not do their homework.
There were at least 3 bikes running around with the arse end of a Merlin shoehorned inot a frame.
AFAIK only Lucky was stupid enough to put a supercharger & nitrous in one.
There was a picture on the wall at Sims of crates containing Merlins stacked 30' tall in the scrap yard and the special jigs & crated made to melt them.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: NickL] #789416 11/07/19 12:47 pm
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Hillbilly bike Offline
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Originally Posted by NickL
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
The Merlin engines made in the USA under license by Packard had many differences from the British made engines...Much of it was to simplify production and to suit American engineering practices for mass production by factory workers rather than built by hand in Britian by skilled workers.


They also developed some great modifications such as roller rockers etc. When the US built merlins were fitted with the 'pressure carburetor'
designed by RR and built by Bendix-Stromberg it allowed negative g maneuvers without the engine cutting out or the consequent over richness.
The carb although relatively complicated was very much like single point fuel injection. Consequent fuel efficiency was greater too allowing very
long range. Most radial engines were 'gas-guzzlers' by comparison and needed larger frontal area airframes with a few exceptions such as the
FW190, a splendid aircraft. Radials always sounded like tractors as well, nothing like a lovely v12.


From what I have read,the Bendix pressure carb was devloped in the USA in the late 1930's...It was used on all US combat aircraft while early in the war the Merlin still used a float carburetor...There's the story of the Spitfire negative G engine hesitation that was solved by a woman who designed a simple float needle modification..
Many US pilots preferred the huge air cooled radials for ground support because they could take a lot more punishment than the liquid cooled engines..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: BSA_WM20] #789417 11/07/19 12:49 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Originally Posted by BrizzoBrit
Allan:

Not quite a full Merlin engine nor a BSA, but anyway!!

https://www.abc.net.au/local/photos/2015/08/19/4296075.htm

smile


As is oft the case, the ABC producers did not do their homework.
There were at least 3 bikes running around with the arse end of a Merlin shoehorned inot a frame.
AFAIK only Lucky was stupid enough to put a supercharger & nitrous in one.
There was a picture on the wall at Sims of crates containing Merlins stacked 30' tall in the scrap yard and the special jigs & crated made to melt them.


Still very impressive.


beerchug
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Hillbilly bike] #789458 11/07/19 10:57 pm
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NickL Offline
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Originally Posted by NickL
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
The Merlin engines made in the USA under license by Packard had many differences from the British made engines...Much of it was to simplify production and to suit American engineering practices for mass production by factory workers rather than built by hand in Britian by skilled workers.


They also developed some great modifications such as roller rockers etc. When the US built merlins were fitted with the 'pressure carburetor'
designed by RR and built by Bendix-Stromberg it allowed negative g maneuvers without the engine cutting out or the consequent over richness.
The carb although relatively complicated was very much like single point fuel injection. Consequent fuel efficiency was greater too allowing very
long range. Most radial engines were 'gas-guzzlers' by comparison and needed larger frontal area airframes with a few exceptions such as the
FW190, a splendid aircraft. Radials always sounded like tractors as well, nothing like a lovely v12.


From what I have read,the Bendix pressure carb was devloped in the USA in the late 1930's...It was used on all US combat aircraft while early in the war the Merlin still used a float carburetor...There's the story of the Spitfire negative G engine hesitation that was solved by a woman who designed a simple float needle modification..
Many US pilots preferred the huge air cooled radials for ground support because they could take a lot more punishment than the liquid cooled engines..



The design was handed over as a gift as there was no uk company available to produce the device at the time, all were flat out or bombed out.
The carb had actually existed for a fair while in prototype form, made by SU and RR. As the US did not have any real modern fighters until post '41
they would have had no use for such a carb anyway. Then when they couldn't make any more money out of the war and after being attacked they entered it.
No offence meant, but it's the way myself and many others see it. The P51 fighter was produced to a specification issued by the brits who visited NAm and
requested they build the antiquated crap P40 thing for them, the plane that was slaughtered by the Luftwaffe in France. (The French listed it as a Curtiss type)
NAm informed the commission that they would build a better plane and they did. The early mustangs were unsuited to front line operations but were quickly
developed into the required long range escort fighter, which suited the USAF in europe but didn't do the RAF much good, the later Spits being available and
up to scratch, they used them.
'Miss Shilling's Orifice' is the device which was fitted to the float chamber to prevent the subsequent massive over richness from negative G maneuvers,
it was a stop gap really not a substitute or a cure for the main problem. It did however prevent engines cutting completely.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789549 11/09/19 1:35 am
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Mark Parker Offline
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Clive Caldwell's antiquated P40 shot down 10 109s over North Africa, flown by some of Germany's top aces. ThHis P40 accounted for 22+ aircraft shot down in that theatre. 5 Ju87s in a matter of minutes on one occasion. I saw a beautiful restored P40 take of from Cairns airport. I heard it before seeing it. We were walking across the Tarmac from our flight, it sounded superb.


mark
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: NickL] #789551 11/09/19 2:42 am
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Originally Posted by NickL


As the US did not have any real modern fighters until post '41
they would have had no use for such a carb anyway. Then when they couldn't make any more money out of the war and after being attacked they entered it.
No offence meant, but it's the way myself and many others see it.


Well of course you do. The USA for 120 years has either been castigated for stomping around the world in their boots getting INTO wars, or castigated for not riding in to save someone's ass from a war (that someone else started) soon enough.

We're used to it. Luckily, we really don't have to give a rat's arse any more.

Be that as it may, it didn't take long for the US to get onto the fighter plane train, and especially to take advantage of British advances like angled carrier flight decks, steam catapults, jet engines, and later, jump jets and decent helicopter design ....

Lannis


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789563 11/09/19 5:48 am
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Not giving a rats is my take on it too. I just wanted to point out the invention was not American and that the P51 did not really do anything until 1943.
Look at the Attrition rate suffered by B17's and B24's prior to mid 43. (no long range escort) I realise the massive production facility of the 'states
was great, i'm not knocking that.
http://www.enginehistory.org/Accessories/HxFuelSys/FuelSysHx09.shtml

Mark, the top luftwaffe aces did not go to North Africa, but experienced pilots did. How that bloke managed to do anything with
one of those crates is proof he was a great pilot. Just like Frantisek the top scoring RAF pilot in the battle of Britain flying a Hurricane.
He was a Czech flying with a Polish squadron. Great eye sight and the ability to aim with deflection etc were very important then.
A lot of P40's were fitted with Merlins, it was available as a factory option but any v12 like that sounds lovely anyway.
(The Ju87 Stuka was nicknamed 'Flying coffin' by it's crews.) Dozens were shot down in 1940 whilst attacking radar installations etc.
They were a very effective dive bomber against poorly defended targets, that's about it.

Last edited by NickL; 11/09/19 6:04 am.
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789567 11/09/19 7:47 am
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OK... there a couple things to add here, the USA invented the fuel that gave the Merlin engine the ability to developed the power that it made. and Westinghouse developed the technology and metallurgy to build the superchargers that allowed that power to be maintained at altitude. the first part was a combined effort between our countries, the second was all on Westinghouse's commercial turbine experience. fact. and yea, I know aviation, that has been my career over 40 years

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789569 11/09/19 8:17 am
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I'm not singing any national anthem, i don't disagree with the fact Sun Oil developed the method of adding tetraethyl lead to petrol.
Likewise i'm not having a pop at Westinghouse's metallurgy. I don't suffer with hysterical patriotism, far from it. Congratulations on
your long aviation career. The fact remains that in many aspects of engine and airframe development the Germans and Italians
were very proficient. In fact superior in many aspects. The Japanese too had a very clever approach to fighters, what was the
effective range of a Zero? Lightly built i know but very clever, as an aerobatic plane it was terrific. It took a long while to better in
terms of maneuverability, if it ever was.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789583 11/09/19 1:17 pm
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The much maligned P40....... It really wasn’t as bad as depicted by many post war historians.

It was available and worked until more modern designs were available....and was likely already obsolete when the war started.

The P40 was a re-engined P36 which first flew in 1935, it was an old design by the time it first saw combat. But it was rugged, had very good handling at speed (which many of it’s contemporaries did not), didn’t need “tropicalized” to function in areas of high ambient temperatures, had better range than all but a few Japanese aircraft at the time it entered combat, was easy to service (due to it’s P36 roots), and accelerated in a dive better than most anything else available at the start of it’s combat career.

But, it was slow in a climb since it was heavy (again due to it’s P36 modular design roots), had poor high altitude performance (it was never designed as a high altitude interceptor), it was sluggish handling at low speed, was tricky handling on the ground, and was not heavily armed early in it’s career (there is that pesky mid 30’s design criteria).

The P40 was also hampered by poor training and tactics. Too many user’s tried to use it as a “dog fighter”. Which it wasn’t. Maybe the P36 was in 1935 performance, but the P40 never was due to the bloat that set in.

With proper training and tactics, the P40’s have a better record than depicted by post war “histories”. And for a design that was likely obsolete at the start of it’s career, it was still in combat in 1944 (1945 with some user’s). Ir was a stable gun platform when used in “slash and zoom” attacks, made a good ground attack fighter, and was rugged.

Most of it’s contemporaries also had issues that seem to be overlooked and were also outclassed by newer designs. But for whatever reason, the P40 got vilified.....strange.


Never underestimate the human ability to elevate stupid to a whole new level!.
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789586 11/09/19 1:51 pm
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Clare Chennault's "Flying Tigers", the U.S volunteers in the China Republic's air force, flew P.40 "Warhawks." One of their tricks was to dive down on Japanese "Zero" fighters to shoot them down.
Another was to con the Zero pilot into pursuing them in a dive.

The P.40 was built strong enough to survive the high-speed dive. The Zero wasn't.
At high enough speeds it's wings would fracture, sometimes even peel off.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789587 11/09/19 2:06 pm
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Very interesting conversation! BSA never made a fighterplane, but Britain built many and one of the most interesting was maybe the Tempest with it´s Napier sabre 24 cyl. engine? Any comments on that one?


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: NickL] #789588 11/09/19 2:11 pm
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Originally Posted by NickL
I'm not singing any national anthem, i don't disagree with the fact Sun Oil developed the method of adding tetraethyl lead to petrol.
Likewise i'm not having a pop at Westinghouse's metallurgy. I don't suffer with hysterical patriotism, far from it. Congratulations on
your long aviation career. The fact remains that in many aspects of engine and airframe development the Germans and Italians
were very proficient. In fact superior in many aspects. The Japanese too had a very clever approach to fighters, what was the
effective range of a Zero? Lightly built i know but very clever, as an aerobatic plane it was terrific. It took a long while to better in
terms of maneuverability, if it ever was.


While I don't agree with some of what you say I do agree with this statement^^^...The USA always had several major advantages, they were not being bombed and had more production capacity that any other combatants...The USA also excelled at logistics of fighting wars thousands of miles away.America lost 1000's of cargo ships merchant mariners to supply the UK with needed war material, something often forgotten in these conversations...In general, US aircraft were built to take punishement and protect the pilot at the expensive of weight and performance.Pilots were trained not to dog fight but use superior tactics. ..But the USA did have some tech achievements like the turbo superchargers used on all 4 engine bombers, P47 and P38...
From the American military point of view, the air war over Europe was to distract and distrupt the Nazi's until a ground invasion was possible...The loss of nearly 6000 B-17's and 30,000 airmen was the price to clear the way...Then at last General Lemay and the B-29's finally turned attention to the hated Japanese.They were firebombed into ashes and surrendered with no ground troops needed...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: NickL] #789598 11/09/19 4:05 pm
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Originally Posted by NickL
[


The design was handed over as a gift as there was no uk company available to produce the device at the time, all were flat out or bombed out.
The carb had actually existed for a fair while in prototype form, made by SU and RR. As the US did not have any real modern fighters until post '41
they would have had no use for such a carb anyway. Then when they couldn't make any more money out of the war and after being attacked they entered it.
No offence meant, but it's the way myself and many others see it. The P51 fighter was produced to a specification issued by the brits who visited NAm and
requested they build the antiquated crap P40 thing for them, the plane that was slaughtered by the Luftwaffe in France. (The French listed it as a Curtiss type)
NAm informed the commission that they would build a better plane and they did. The early mustangs were unsuited to front line operations but were quickly
developed into the required long range escort fighter, which suited the USAF in europe but didn't do the RAF much good, the later Spits being available and
up to scratch, they used them.
'Miss Shilling's Orifice' is the device which was fitted to the float chamber to prevent the subsequent massive over richness from negative G maneuvers,
it was a stop gap really not a substitute or a cure for the main problem. It did however prevent engines cutting completely.

The first US engine to use the Bendix pressure carb was the Allison V-12 in 1936...I don't beliieve the UK was being bombed at that time.As Mark Parker mentions the P40 was used very effectively in the hands of good pilots..The Brits who flew them in Africa early in the war found then equal to the BF109E.
The early Mustang aka Apache/A36 was intended as a low altitude ground troop support mission.as indicated by it's American
" A" prefix rather than "P" for pursuit before the Brits were using it...The excellent aerodymanics and laminar flow wing cave it it's long range as a bomber escort..
Many improvemts during the war were devolped at the same time by the various combatants...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789634 11/09/19 10:48 pm
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The early type of Bendix carb was not the one fitted to the Merlin.
The design for those carbs was dependant on the actual engine it was used on. It was not like bolting on an improved normal carb to uprate the motor.
The carb was a specific item to suit the engine and it's supercharger. The version of the merlin (66) was not available until '41+
It would be like fitting an injection system off a Toyota Corolla on to a Maserati.
If you read the article i posted (by a yank) it puts it over very well.
Pressure carbs were around in the 30's but not the type used on the Merlin engine.

Yes i agree America lost many ships as did many countries supplying the UK. That was commerce, some countries/companies would carry on supplying, some wouldn't.
My old man spent the first 3+ years of the war in the North Atlantic in the merchants, so i realise what you are saying. He often opted for the extra 5 quid a month 'danger money'
paid for being on tankers. Being in the engine room at or below the water line you had no chance anyway.

http://www.enginehistory.org/Accessories/HxFuelSys/FuelSysHx09.shtml

Last edited by NickL; 11/10/19 5:36 am.
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789663 11/10/19 5:34 am
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Sorry for my derision regarding the P40 it was a good old workhorse really, just dated like the old Hurricane.
The mk2 version of the Hurricane with the better engine and 4 x 20mm cannons or 2 x 30mm was a more like it.
The BF109E was also quite dated being replaced by the F largely in 1940. A bit unforgiving for novice pilots though, i understand.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: NickL] #789670 11/10/19 7:52 am
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"Mark, the top luftwaffe aces did not go to North Africa, but experienced pilots did." ?

"I./JG 27 claimed 588 aircraft shot down in the period of April 1941–November 1942. Stahlschmidt, Steinhausen and Marseille accounted for 250 of these; a huge 42% of the unit's total. The total claims in North Africa for JG 27 were 1,166 aircraft:"

Marseille claimed 158 but it was probably a few less. German pilots may have been granted leave, but they stayed on operations, those that survived became expert or were expert, which lead to big tallies. Even when shipped out of North Africa those that survived flew in defense of Germany, some in the new jets. Bigger scores were had on the Russian front but it probably didn't represent a higher skill level.

Clive Caldwell was Australia's highest scoring ace. Caldwell flew Curtiss P-40 Tomahawks and Kittyhawks in the North African Campaign and Supermarine Spitfires in the South West Pacific Theatre. He was the highest-scoring P-40 pilot from any air force and the highest-scoring Allied pilot in North Africa. He visited the Curtiss factory during the war and you can imagine the reception he received from the factory workers. P40s were very effective in the south west Pacific.

I talked to an old RAAF guy once, what Australia was adapting for fighter defense was a trainer they were building here based on a North American design and called a 'Wirraway' it was used as a fighter against the Japanese in Malaya and New Guinea until replaced by enough P40s and Boomerangs. Top speed was about 220mph with two 303 machine guns firing forward and one for the observer in the back.

The US commander in the pacific would not allow Australian squadrons to support operations beyond a certain point, even though the US pilots were very enthusiastic to fly with Commonwealth pilots and their famous Spitfires, by then potent Mk V111s.


mark
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Arnstein] #789674 11/10/19 8:35 am
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BSA actually did enter the air craft just after WW I.
IT was a case of ego over audit and cost them a packet but they did actually make planes for a very short period.


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: BSA_WM20] #789677 11/10/19 9:09 am
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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
BSA actually did enter the air craft just after WW I.
IT was a case of ego over audit and cost them a packet but they did actually make planes for a very short period.



Thanks for info, do you know which planes?

There seems to be a lot of knowledge about old planes in the BSA forum. So, asking again for comments on the Hawker Tempest / Napier Sabre 24 cyl.?


Arnstein

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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789687 11/10/19 12:46 pm
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Something to keep in mind about the Mustang... When it was fully operational as the P51 early in 1944 ,many of the most experienced German pilots were dead, injured or POW's..Not like early in the war when inexpereinced American pilots in less than state of the art aircraft went up againts the best German and Japanese pilots in supposedly superior machines..Despite this ,the P40, Navy Wildcat held their own...The P38 was always a mixed bag...Not good in Europe, but better in warmer Mediterrian and excellent in the Pacific...And the huge well armoured P-47 with it's near indestructible R2800 was the aircraft you wanted to be flying when the enemy was punching holes in your ride..But as always, the skill of the pilot is most important..


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789704 11/10/19 4:01 pm
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You left out the F6F Hellcat and F4U Corsair that were also R2800 powered and had a good reputation for getting you home with damage. The R2800 is one of the truly great aircraft piston engines and is still earning revenue in the 21st century.

I have met and talked with some warbird people. They tend to have a few pennies to play with and the ones I have met, tend to have more than one expensive warbird to play with.

The ones I have met have both a P51 and P40. They fly the P51 at air shows, they fly the P40 to stay proficient. Seems the P51’s are incredibly expensive to keep airworthy and don’t lend themselves to easy repair. Maintenance yes, repair no. The P40 is much less expensive per hour to fly, simple to maintain, and simple to repair.

The P40 with it’s mid 30’s design roots had to be easy to maintain and repair due to very tight Depression era budgets. The design is very modular for easy disassembly/reassembly, most if not all components (hydraulics, electrics, etc.) were off the shelf aviation components of the era (and even beyond). The airframe components were simple and are easy to duplicate. The Allison engine is a fairly easy engine to live with.

The P51 was designed for mass production. Maintenance is easy, as it was designed to be maintained by inexperienced ground crew. If the airframe needed major repair, well, throw it away and get another one. Most of the components (hydraulic, electric, etc.) were unique in many cases to the Mustang. The components simply don’t exist anymore. Significant portions of the airframe are difficult to reproduce due to complexity. And the Merlin is a demanding engine to keep running correctly.

And from I have been told.....the P40 is, with the exception of landing, is an easier plane to fly. The landing issue is just being cautious with narrow track landing gear. The wide track Mustang is easy to land, but is not stable in flight.

Strange thing is, reading autobiographies and interviews with the guys who lived it first hand.....they have similar opinions of the 2. They certainly appreciated the speed and range of the Mustang, but missed the sweet handling of the P40.


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Rich B] #789742 11/10/19 10:38 pm
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Here's a nice read for you guys...It's a collection of the performance of the various WW2 fighter aircraft from data when new....The rates of climb are interesting and surprising...

Warplane performance


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Arnstein] #789746 11/10/19 10:43 pm
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Originally Posted by Arnstein
Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
BSA actually did enter the air craft just after WW I.
IT was a case of ego over audit and cost them a packet but they did actually make planes for a very short period.



Thanks for info, do you know which planes?

There seems to be a lot of knowledge about old planes in the BSA forum. So, asking again for comments on the Hawker Tempest / Napier Sabre 24 cyl.?



The Tempest a development of the Typhoon was a very effective fast well armed fighter. The very troublesome Sabre had at that time been largely sorted
having been very problematic in the Typhoon. 2000+HP and 4 x 20mm cannon made a very formidable plane back then.
The Radial engine made by Bristol was also fitted to some marks. That was a complicated engine. More so than the Sabre which was developed from
the Napier Dagger an air cooled motor. The object with these was to keep frontal area low hence the 2 crank H section.
My old art teacher at school was a typhoon pilot, poor sod. They used to have a tendency to catch fire when started apparently. Then low level attacking with rockets etc.
Huge losses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2RPNJW_y1E
https://aviationshoppe.com/bristol-centaurus-radial-engine-p-219.html

Last edited by NickL; 11/11/19 12:36 am.
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789792 11/11/19 9:45 am
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Thanks for your comment NickL. Yes, the Tempest must been a formidable plane..


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789794 11/11/19 11:20 am
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For some excellent reading material I suggest Allied Piston Engines of WW2 by Graham White....And to get an idea of the struggle to build a competitve combat engine in the USA V's for Victory, the story of the Allison V1710 by Daniel Whitney. These books are out of print and somewhat expensive but well detailed with an objective point of view


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789796 11/11/19 11:26 am
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On Hillbillies suggestion I bought V for victory, great read and got it new for less than list off UK Amazon. Thanks HB.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789803 11/11/19 1:41 pm
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For another great read, get VICTORY THROUGH AIR POWER, by Alexander Seversky, the aero engineer who designed the P.35 fighter, which was the forerunner of the P.47 Thunderbolt.

Seversky predicted how the "next war" (which became WW II) would be won by what he called "arial blockade", meaning that a strong air force could control any movement on the ground beneath it.
His theories and predictions proved to be true.

The book is commonly available from used book dealers.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: kommando] #789804 11/11/19 2:09 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
On Hillbillies suggestion I bought V for victory, great read and got it new for less than list off UK Amazon. Thanks HB.

Great! The other book mentioned has great details of the Brit sleeve valve radials and Brutally complex Napiers


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #789869 11/11/19 10:49 pm
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Although i loved the the v's and H's etc. Politics was the big problem, Frank Whittle's jets could
have been powering stuff much earlier and avoided a lot of deaths. Even when available the Brit
jets were not allowed to see combat over europe for fear of technology falling into enemy hands.
Yet they pushed the underdeveloped Typhoon into service and killed plenty of pilots.
Like the mosquito, far too few of those were produced really, a brilliant plane that could carry a
fair bomb load at twice the speed of most bombers and once dropped were faster than most
fighters. But when as a country you squander thousands of men in support of treaties and allegiances
such as the BEF being sent to europe when it was, all a political show and a huge waste of resource.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: NickL] #789882 11/12/19 12:36 am
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Albert Einstein warned the American President around 1940 the Nazis were trying to develop atomic weapons.. That gave the go ahead for the Manhatten Project and the B-29. The US though the UK would fall in some manner, The Russians would stall and would stand alone to fight the Japanese in the west an the Nazi's on the east...We would need a fleet of long range fast bomber to nuke them to ashes.This was the priority so America got the best minds in the world to make it happen...America's did not need to devolop the best technology, we got it from the Brits and others...But we were the unrivaled industrial manufacturer, build more equipment for a war of attrition..
I was born in 47 of the parents that fought in the war...Our grade school books implied the the USA took on Axis and kicked their asses back to hell with a little bit of help from other nations..Not exactly true but it was imprinted into my mind..The victor is in control the history...
And we got the best Nazi rocket enginners.. wink







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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790537 11/19/19 5:09 am
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The Merlin engine, as displayed at the Air and Space Museum in DC.
I was surprised by how compact the engine is to produce such awesome power.

Attached Files Merlin.JPG

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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790557 11/19/19 12:22 pm
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Of the BSA range named after WW2 era fighters the undermentioned model in this discussion is the Hornet, the hot rod with all the HP, built along similar lines to the P38 Lightning. From what I can read on the different fighters available at that time my preference would be the late P38, or Hornet. Nothing could roll faster than a late model P38 with it's power boosted controls, it's guns fired straight ahead on it's centre line. And it had HP, two Allisons giving 1700hp each, with a much better climb than the P51.

The single seat De Havilland Hornet had two slimline Merlins, 2070hp each, with a level speed of 485mph, described as absolute bliss for aerobatics. It's range was 1500miles. And again like the P38 guns were on the centre line. It had excellent vision with the pilot sitting well forward under a bubble canopy. And again brilliant climb.
Work began in '42 and prototypes were being tested in '44.


mark
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: DavidP] #790561 11/19/19 12:45 pm
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Originally Posted by DavidP
The Merlin engine, as displayed at the Air and Space Museum in DC.
I was surprised by how compact the engine is to produce such awesome power.


Naturally, Jay Leno owns one.


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790563 11/19/19 1:14 pm
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WHAT A GREAT SHOW!

Thanks for posting it here.

It was Lancaster bombers that destroyed the Ruhr River dams in Hitler's Germany.
View the movie: "The Dam Busters."

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790585 11/19/19 4:43 pm
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For twin Merlin Mosquitos watch "633 Squadron", blue leader to control. Out.


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790587 11/19/19 5:00 pm
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The Dambuster original film is excellent,best seen in restored 1080P where the detail of the rivets can be seen in the original lancs. Hopefully one day Peter Jackson will get to release his version too but the original is good enough still to stand on its own.

Battle of Britain is another good film as long as you ignore the Spanish sourced Me109's with Merlin engines wink

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790619 11/19/19 8:51 pm
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I always loved the way those bombers determined the correct altitude to release their bombs. Convergent beams of light, simple and elegant.


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Mark Parker] #790633 11/19/19 10:32 pm
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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
Of the BSA range named after WW2 era fighters the undermentioned model in this discussion is the Hornet, the hot rod with all the HP, built along similar lines to the P38 Lightning.
That's interesting, Mark. I'd assumed that the Hornet and Wasp were named after radial engines rather than fighters. Can you place the Wasp?

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790639 11/19/19 11:12 pm
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A really good place to visit regarding the 'mossie'
https://www.dehavillandmuseum.co.uk/

A private development carried out at this old country house about 5 miles from the Hatfield works.
The all wooden construction utilised people and companies in the furniture trade to make sections.
The construction also meant the plane was the first 'stealth' bomber. Largely Invisible to radar as it was wood.
An example at this site is fitted with the 'quick firing' large 57mm Molins cannon for ship/u-boat hunting.
A truly splendid multi-role aircraft.
Night fighter.
Fighter-bomber.
Pathfinder.
Anti ship hunter.
Medium bomber.
Rocket launching ground attack fighter.
Photo-reconnaissance platform.
etc etc.

Last edited by NickL; 11/19/19 11:17 pm.
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790647 11/20/19 12:21 am
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seems I recollect man years ago an old guy told me that a lot of the wood for mossies came from south Carolina----cypress to be exact maybe that true maybe not but that's what he said


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: kommando] #790648 11/20/19 12:22 am
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Originally Posted by kommando
The Dambuster original film is excellent,best seen in restored 1080P where the detail of the rivets can be seen in the original lancs. Hopefully one day Peter Jackson will get to release his version too ...


Not Peter Jackson, please not Peter Jackson. He couldn't even do "Lord of the Rings" without farting around with it to make it like HE thinks it SHOULD have been, not like Tolkien wrote it.

I mean a lot of it is OK. He did a good job with the orcs, even getting the differences between the Morgul-orcs, the Uruk-hai, and the Barad-dur orcs right. The Rohirrim are done pretty well; especially Eowyn sneaking away with the army and standing up to the Witch King and his beast on the battlefield before Gondor when no one else would, just like in the books. And I understand that with a screenplay, you can't put EVERYthing in it, so he had to leave out Tom Bombadil, the Old Forest, and the Barrows. That's OK, part of the reality of movie making.

But what was that B.S. with making Arwen into a Lara-the-Tomb-Raider warrior princess who could get the drop on Aragorn in the wilderness? He could have just left Glorfindel in the proper role, but noooo he had to do the 'feminist' thing and screw it up. And he COMPLETELY f-ed up Faramir, turning him from who he was, a good guy, not the warrior that brother Boromir was, but stronger of will and purer of heart, who RESISTED the power of the ring, but Jackson shows him doing the exact opposite, falling prey to it. Why change him into the something that ruins the whole story? Just to show that Numenorian stock isn't any better than anyone else?

And Gandalf with Denethor, Steward of Gondor. Tolkein's Gandalf never showed anything but the greatest respect for Denethor, understanding that he had gone a bit dropsical with power and lust for the throne that could never be his, but treating him like the leader of the greatest power in Middle Earth that he was. And what does Jackson have Gandalf do? Whacking him over the head with his staff and talking to him like a dog. I just about turned it off right then.

Sooo .... If Peter Jackson makes a historical film by the same standards, .... well, no telling what he might do. I ain't watching it!

Lannis


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790653 11/20/19 1:05 am
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Lannis .......
heres my take on peter jackson .......sure he has been very commercially successful but if you take all the computer generated special effects and all the ohhhhhhhhh soooooooooo poignant moments where people stand around essentially pulling faces out of his 4 hour long films they would be about 30 minutes long

I am also bored of the rings ...........

people here love him cause he has made a name for himself (and got a knighthood) , but he sure gets spoken about (by the media here) as if he is some kind of demi-god ............im over him as well.

apparently he has a vast personal collection of WW1 militaria , but i do have to say that the film he "made" by colorizing original WW1 footage was pretty well done, but im just not into making money out of that sort of thing.


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Lannis] #790665 11/20/19 5:29 am
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Originally Posted by Lannis

Not Peter Jackson, please not Peter Jackson. He couldn't even do "Lord of the Rings" without farting around with it to make it like HE thinks it SHOULD have been, not like Tolkien wrote it.
And Gandalf with Denethor, Steward of Gondor. Tolkein's Gandalf never showed anything but the greatest respect for Denethor, understanding that he had gone a bit dropsical with power and lust for the throne that could never be his, but treating him like the leader of the greatest power in Middle Earth that he was. And what does Jackson have Gandalf do? Whacking him over the head with his staff and talking to him like a dog.
Lannis

Probably what Gandalf wanted to do but thought better of in the original. laugh
The film version is never completely true to the book, films are more about entertainment.
Kinda like letting a Rhode Island Yankee do a documentary of the War of Northern Aggression.

BTW: I still wonder if a Spit can really glide and maneuver for as long as in the scene towards the end of Dunkirk.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790670 11/20/19 10:29 am
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kommando Online Content
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I first read Lord of the Rings cover to cover over 3 days when I was sixteen, the Peter Jackson LOR films are flawed and the Hobbit ones even more so. but if they spark just a few people to go back to the original source and find the real story then its enough to justify the flaws. As an engineer in essence the arts world is a mystery to me, I can only describe it an odd mix of imagination and hard commercial business which creates some grating howlers. At least the success of LOR has spawned an adaption in the works backed by Amazon, so another stab at getting the essence of Tolkien's genius to the screen, or maybe another flawed version, only time will tell but being ignored totally would be worst.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: DavidP] #790671 11/20/19 10:32 am
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Peter Jackson has an FE2b like my great uncle flew in 101sqd RFC. It's interesting how people develop a love for machines that get them home. I guess for its day it was high tech.


mark
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790683 11/20/19 2:24 pm
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If you have read "Lord of the Rings," find a copy of National Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings".
That book will make you laugh your [email protected]@ off!

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Irish Swede] #790684 11/20/19 2:38 pm
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Lannis Offline
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Originally Posted by Irish Swede
If you have read "Lord of the Rings," find a copy of National Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings".
That book will make you laugh your [email protected]@ off!


You're 45 years too late for me .... read it when it first came out ... !

Lannis


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Mark Parker] #790685 11/20/19 2:46 pm
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Lannis Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
Peter Jackson has an FE2b like my great uncle flew in 101sqd RFC. It's interesting how people develop a love for machines that get them home.


For Brits, I suspect the feelings for the Spitfires, Hurricanes, Mosquitos, Lancasters, and other warplanes are more than just a "get them home" thing, although I'm sure that's a big component of what the aviators felt.

The people, the workers, mothers, and children, watched the sky as those planes and their pilots fought back an enemy that would have slaughtered, tortured, and imprisoned them and their children for the foreseeable future if they had won. Every day they had to be wondering "Are they going to do it? Are they going to push them back?" as bombs, red-hot shrapnel, robot rockets, and spent bullets showered down on them.

And they DID win, and that's not just the "Winners Write The History Books" bullshyte we always hear; you can actually ask people who were there. (We'll hear the "winners write the history" crap that proves that the Nazis weren't really so bad etc later, when they're all gone).

So it's no wonder that when those folks see the silhouette of a Spitfire or Hurricane, they feel a twinge of gladness and gratitude!

Lannis


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: kommando] #790686 11/20/19 2:48 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
As an engineer in essence the arts world is a mystery to me, I can only describe it an odd mix of imagination and hard commercial business which creates some grating howlers.


Well expressed! thumbsup I'm the same way ... clap


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Lannis] #790687 11/20/19 2:48 pm
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kommando Online Content
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Good reminder, have my Bored of the Rings copy somewhere, just no idea where.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Lannis] #790717 11/20/19 9:08 pm
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Originally Posted by Lannis
...I mean a lot of it is OK. He did a good job with the orcs, even getting the differences between the Morgul-orcs, the Uruk-hai, and the Barad-dur orcs right. The Rohirrim are done pretty well; especially Eowyn sneaking away with the army and standing up to the Witch King and his beast on the battlefield before Gondor when no one else would, just like in the books. And I understand that with a screenplay, you can't put EVERYthing in it, so he had to leave out Tom Bombadil, the Old Forest, and the Barrows. That's OK, part of the reality of movie making.

But what was that B.S. with making Arwen into a Lara-the-Tomb-Raider warrior princess who could get the drop on Aragorn in the wilderness? He could have just left Glorfindel in the proper role, but noooo he had to do the 'feminist' thing and screw it up. And he COMPLETELY f-ed up Faramir, turning him from who he was, a good guy, not the warrior that brother Boromir was, but stronger of will and purer of heart, who RESISTED the power of the ring, but Jackson shows him doing the exact opposite, falling prey to it. Why change him into the something that ruins the whole story? Just to show that Numenorian stock isn't any better than anyone else?

And Gandalf with Denethor, Steward of Gondor. Tolkein's Gandalf never showed anything but the greatest respect for Denethor, understanding that he had gone a bit dropsical with power and lust for the throne that could never be his, but treating him like the leader of the greatest power in Middle Earth that he was. And what does Jackson have Gandalf do? Whacking him over the head with his staff and talking to him like a dog. I just about turned it off right then....
Lannis


An informed and pithy critique.
Bravo sir!


1970 T120R
1970 Commando
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790725 11/20/19 10:47 pm
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quinten Online Happy
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... I don't know ,
"lord of the Spitfires " ..has a nice ring to it .

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: kommando] #790754 11/21/19 5:43 am
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DavidP Online Content
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Originally Posted by kommando
As an engineer in essence the arts world is a mystery to me, I can only describe it an odd mix of imagination and hard commercial business which creates some grating howlers.

Now imagine being a technical person in an industry run largely by creative types (musicians.)
Not the most organized lot, and pointing out the technical difficulties involved in what they propose to do is a, "bad attitude."
At least the tech people in the film industry have a union.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: DavidP] #790761 11/21/19 10:21 am
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kommando Online Content
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Originally Posted by DavidP

Now imagine being a technical person in an industry run largely by creative types (musicians.)


I did have a notion of going that way decades ago, thanks for confirming I made a slightly better choice wink

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Lannis] #790767 11/21/19 12:03 pm
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Originally Posted by Lannis


And they DID win, and that's not just the "Winners Write The History Books" bullshyte we always hear; you can actually ask people who were there. (We'll hear the "winners write the history" crap that proves that the Nazis weren't really so bad etc later, when they're all gone).



Lannis


History is told different ways...The documented story says one week before the Air Battle, a US tanker arrived with 6 million gallons of 100 octane avaition fuel refined in Texas.. The Brits has very little to no 100 octane at that time..The 100 octane allowed the pilots to use more supercharger boost, giving an additional 350 HP for combat ......An advantage for sure...The Brits had superior electronics and submarine detection compared to the Americans and gave an advantage for ship convoy protection, more tankers and cargo got through to the UK...None of this dimishes the British heroic efforts during the Air Battle...But as always,war is never simple....


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790830 11/21/19 10:48 pm
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The use of leaded 100 octane fuel was initiated in 1939 the relevant engine data shows the increase in available HP.
RAF Hurricanes and Fairey Battles flying/fighting in France in early 1940 were using 100 octane fuel.

The B.O.B air battle commenced in around mid July 1940 and was considered finished in September (Sept 15th is Battle of Britain Day)
The figures i have show an increase from around 920 HP to the 1030 HP which was the listed HP for both the Hurricane Mk1a and
the Spitfire Mk1a and 1b also the Defiant and Battle. This generalisation does not state at what altitude the HP was available.
It is an interesting point that the use of sleeve valve type engine construction allows a flat plate type cylinder head which is of course
far better at resisting detonation than a hemi or pent roof type. Engineers at both Napier and Bristol were using this setup in the
early 30's to overcome the problem of lower octane fuels. Different approaches to overcoming a problem.

As for submarine detection, until the wider use of Asdic and centimetric radar in 1941 detection was looking for periscopes with binoculars.
The u boat 'happy time' records are a testament to that. Crossing the Atlantic in some clapped out old 6 knot heap along with 40 or 50
similar and protected by a few corvettes who themselves couldn't do more than around 15 knots.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790835 11/21/19 11:04 pm
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I recall help my Dad in the garden about 1974, we heard the sound of a heavy bomber flying over the village on the way to the Leuchars airshow, I think it was a Halifax or a Wellington maybe a Lancaster, 4 engined job. my father remarked " Last time I saw one of those it was dropping bombs on me " , Check out the " friendly fire " badly placed on the Polish 1st armoured division at the Battle of Falaise.
I read Lord of the Rings as a kid and loved it, as an adult the movie put me to sleep, the Hobbit was a travesty.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/21/19 11:48 pm.

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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790859 11/22/19 12:38 am
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There’s something about the sound of a Merlin engine. It stands alone. And the Spitfire is just simply beautiful. If your heart doesn’t lift and your blood doesn’t stir when you hear and see one in flight then you are a dull dog indeed.
Others might be bigger, faster, shinier, blah, blah, blah, but the Spittie remains the Gold Standard.
As an ex-Raffie who had to turn out in full fig every BoB Day and was one of many background erk extras in that Battle of Britain film I still turn into a babbling old fart at that sight and sound. I can’t help myself and it annoys management no end.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790868 11/22/19 1:21 am
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i used to think a Merlin at full chat was the most spine tingling sound ever , until I heard 6 rover V8s on funny fuel , 3 down each side with a central jack shaft at the New Dear tractor pull. The smell was hellish, I think the fuel was doctored with thinners. A foo poo. as the commentator put it.


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