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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790585 11/19/19 4:43 pm
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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790587 11/19/19 5:00 pm
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The Dambuster original film is excellent,best seen in restored 1080P where the detail of the rivets can be seen in the original lancs. Hopefully one day Peter Jackson will get to release his version too but the original is good enough still to stand on its own.

Battle of Britain is another good film as long as you ignore the Spanish sourced Me109's with Merlin engines wink

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790619 11/19/19 8:51 pm
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I always loved the way those bombers determined the correct altitude to release their bombs. Convergent beams of light, simple and elegant.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Mark Parker] #790633 11/19/19 10:32 pm
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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
Of the BSA range named after WW2 era fighters the undermentioned model in this discussion is the Hornet, the hot rod with all the HP, built along similar lines to the P38 Lightning.
That's interesting, Mark. I'd assumed that the Hornet and Wasp were named after radial engines rather than fighters. Can you place the Wasp?

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790639 11/19/19 11:12 pm
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A really good place to visit regarding the 'mossie'
https://www.dehavillandmuseum.co.uk/

A private development carried out at this old country house about 5 miles from the Hatfield works.
The all wooden construction utilised people and companies in the furniture trade to make sections.
The construction also meant the plane was the first 'stealth' bomber. Largely Invisible to radar as it was wood.
An example at this site is fitted with the 'quick firing' large 57mm Molins cannon for ship/u-boat hunting.
A truly splendid multi-role aircraft.
Night fighter.
Fighter-bomber.
Pathfinder.
Anti ship hunter.
Medium bomber.
Rocket launching ground attack fighter.
Photo-reconnaissance platform.
etc etc.

Last edited by NickL; 11/19/19 11:17 pm.
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790647 11/20/19 12:21 am
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seems I recollect man years ago an old guy told me that a lot of the wood for mossies came from south Carolina----cypress to be exact maybe that true maybe not but that's what he said


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: kommando] #790648 11/20/19 12:22 am
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Lannis Offline
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Originally Posted by kommando
The Dambuster original film is excellent,best seen in restored 1080P where the detail of the rivets can be seen in the original lancs. Hopefully one day Peter Jackson will get to release his version too ...


Not Peter Jackson, please not Peter Jackson. He couldn't even do "Lord of the Rings" without farting around with it to make it like HE thinks it SHOULD have been, not like Tolkien wrote it.

I mean a lot of it is OK. He did a good job with the orcs, even getting the differences between the Morgul-orcs, the Uruk-hai, and the Barad-dur orcs right. The Rohirrim are done pretty well; especially Eowyn sneaking away with the army and standing up to the Witch King and his beast on the battlefield before Gondor when no one else would, just like in the books. And I understand that with a screenplay, you can't put EVERYthing in it, so he had to leave out Tom Bombadil, the Old Forest, and the Barrows. That's OK, part of the reality of movie making.

But what was that B.S. with making Arwen into a Lara-the-Tomb-Raider warrior princess who could get the drop on Aragorn in the wilderness? He could have just left Glorfindel in the proper role, but noooo he had to do the 'feminist' thing and screw it up. And he COMPLETELY f-ed up Faramir, turning him from who he was, a good guy, not the warrior that brother Boromir was, but stronger of will and purer of heart, who RESISTED the power of the ring, but Jackson shows him doing the exact opposite, falling prey to it. Why change him into the something that ruins the whole story? Just to show that Numenorian stock isn't any better than anyone else?

And Gandalf with Denethor, Steward of Gondor. Tolkein's Gandalf never showed anything but the greatest respect for Denethor, understanding that he had gone a bit dropsical with power and lust for the throne that could never be his, but treating him like the leader of the greatest power in Middle Earth that he was. And what does Jackson have Gandalf do? Whacking him over the head with his staff and talking to him like a dog. I just about turned it off right then.

Sooo .... If Peter Jackson makes a historical film by the same standards, .... well, no telling what he might do. I ain't watching it!

Lannis


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790653 11/20/19 1:05 am
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Lannis .......
heres my take on peter jackson .......sure he has been very commercially successful but if you take all the computer generated special effects and all the ohhhhhhhhh soooooooooo poignant moments where people stand around essentially pulling faces out of his 4 hour long films they would be about 30 minutes long

I am also bored of the rings ...........

people here love him cause he has made a name for himself (and got a knighthood) , but he sure gets spoken about (by the media here) as if he is some kind of demi-god ............im over him as well.

apparently he has a vast personal collection of WW1 militaria , but i do have to say that the film he "made" by colorizing original WW1 footage was pretty well done, but im just not into making money out of that sort of thing.


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Lannis] #790665 11/20/19 5:29 am
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Originally Posted by Lannis

Not Peter Jackson, please not Peter Jackson. He couldn't even do "Lord of the Rings" without farting around with it to make it like HE thinks it SHOULD have been, not like Tolkien wrote it.
And Gandalf with Denethor, Steward of Gondor. Tolkein's Gandalf never showed anything but the greatest respect for Denethor, understanding that he had gone a bit dropsical with power and lust for the throne that could never be his, but treating him like the leader of the greatest power in Middle Earth that he was. And what does Jackson have Gandalf do? Whacking him over the head with his staff and talking to him like a dog.
Lannis

Probably what Gandalf wanted to do but thought better of in the original. laugh
The film version is never completely true to the book, films are more about entertainment.
Kinda like letting a Rhode Island Yankee do a documentary of the War of Northern Aggression.

BTW: I still wonder if a Spit can really glide and maneuver for as long as in the scene towards the end of Dunkirk.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790670 11/20/19 10:29 am
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I first read Lord of the Rings cover to cover over 3 days when I was sixteen, the Peter Jackson LOR films are flawed and the Hobbit ones even more so. but if they spark just a few people to go back to the original source and find the real story then its enough to justify the flaws. As an engineer in essence the arts world is a mystery to me, I can only describe it an odd mix of imagination and hard commercial business which creates some grating howlers. At least the success of LOR has spawned an adaption in the works backed by Amazon, so another stab at getting the essence of Tolkien's genius to the screen, or maybe another flawed version, only time will tell but being ignored totally would be worst.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: DavidP] #790671 11/20/19 10:32 am
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Peter Jackson has an FE2b like my great uncle flew in 101sqd RFC. It's interesting how people develop a love for machines that get them home. I guess for its day it was high tech.


mark
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790683 11/20/19 2:24 pm
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If you have read "Lord of the Rings," find a copy of National Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings".
That book will make you laugh your [email protected]@ off!

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Irish Swede] #790684 11/20/19 2:38 pm
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Lannis Offline
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Originally Posted by Irish Swede
If you have read "Lord of the Rings," find a copy of National Lampoon's "Bored of the Rings".
That book will make you laugh your [email protected]@ off!


You're 45 years too late for me .... read it when it first came out ... !

Lannis


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Mark Parker] #790685 11/20/19 2:46 pm
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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
Peter Jackson has an FE2b like my great uncle flew in 101sqd RFC. It's interesting how people develop a love for machines that get them home.


For Brits, I suspect the feelings for the Spitfires, Hurricanes, Mosquitos, Lancasters, and other warplanes are more than just a "get them home" thing, although I'm sure that's a big component of what the aviators felt.

The people, the workers, mothers, and children, watched the sky as those planes and their pilots fought back an enemy that would have slaughtered, tortured, and imprisoned them and their children for the foreseeable future if they had won. Every day they had to be wondering "Are they going to do it? Are they going to push them back?" as bombs, red-hot shrapnel, robot rockets, and spent bullets showered down on them.

And they DID win, and that's not just the "Winners Write The History Books" bullshyte we always hear; you can actually ask people who were there. (We'll hear the "winners write the history" crap that proves that the Nazis weren't really so bad etc later, when they're all gone).

So it's no wonder that when those folks see the silhouette of a Spitfire or Hurricane, they feel a twinge of gladness and gratitude!

Lannis


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: kommando] #790686 11/20/19 2:48 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
As an engineer in essence the arts world is a mystery to me, I can only describe it an odd mix of imagination and hard commercial business which creates some grating howlers.


Well expressed! thumbsup I'm the same way ... clap


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Lannis] #790687 11/20/19 2:48 pm
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Good reminder, have my Bored of the Rings copy somewhere, just no idea where.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Lannis] #790717 11/20/19 9:08 pm
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Originally Posted by Lannis
...I mean a lot of it is OK. He did a good job with the orcs, even getting the differences between the Morgul-orcs, the Uruk-hai, and the Barad-dur orcs right. The Rohirrim are done pretty well; especially Eowyn sneaking away with the army and standing up to the Witch King and his beast on the battlefield before Gondor when no one else would, just like in the books. And I understand that with a screenplay, you can't put EVERYthing in it, so he had to leave out Tom Bombadil, the Old Forest, and the Barrows. That's OK, part of the reality of movie making.

But what was that B.S. with making Arwen into a Lara-the-Tomb-Raider warrior princess who could get the drop on Aragorn in the wilderness? He could have just left Glorfindel in the proper role, but noooo he had to do the 'feminist' thing and screw it up. And he COMPLETELY f-ed up Faramir, turning him from who he was, a good guy, not the warrior that brother Boromir was, but stronger of will and purer of heart, who RESISTED the power of the ring, but Jackson shows him doing the exact opposite, falling prey to it. Why change him into the something that ruins the whole story? Just to show that Numenorian stock isn't any better than anyone else?

And Gandalf with Denethor, Steward of Gondor. Tolkein's Gandalf never showed anything but the greatest respect for Denethor, understanding that he had gone a bit dropsical with power and lust for the throne that could never be his, but treating him like the leader of the greatest power in Middle Earth that he was. And what does Jackson have Gandalf do? Whacking him over the head with his staff and talking to him like a dog. I just about turned it off right then....
Lannis


An informed and pithy critique.
Bravo sir!


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790725 11/20/19 10:47 pm
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... I don't know ,
"lord of the Spitfires " ..has a nice ring to it .

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: kommando] #790754 11/21/19 5:43 am
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Originally Posted by kommando
As an engineer in essence the arts world is a mystery to me, I can only describe it an odd mix of imagination and hard commercial business which creates some grating howlers.

Now imagine being a technical person in an industry run largely by creative types (musicians.)
Not the most organized lot, and pointing out the technical difficulties involved in what they propose to do is a, "bad attitude."
At least the tech people in the film industry have a union.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: DavidP] #790761 11/21/19 10:21 am
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Originally Posted by DavidP

Now imagine being a technical person in an industry run largely by creative types (musicians.)


I did have a notion of going that way decades ago, thanks for confirming I made a slightly better choice wink

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: Lannis] #790767 11/21/19 12:03 pm
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Originally Posted by Lannis


And they DID win, and that's not just the "Winners Write The History Books" bullshyte we always hear; you can actually ask people who were there. (We'll hear the "winners write the history" crap that proves that the Nazis weren't really so bad etc later, when they're all gone).



Lannis


History is told different ways...The documented story says one week before the Air Battle, a US tanker arrived with 6 million gallons of 100 octane avaition fuel refined in Texas.. The Brits has very little to no 100 octane at that time..The 100 octane allowed the pilots to use more supercharger boost, giving an additional 350 HP for combat ......An advantage for sure...The Brits had superior electronics and submarine detection compared to the Americans and gave an advantage for ship convoy protection, more tankers and cargo got through to the UK...None of this dimishes the British heroic efforts during the Air Battle...But as always,war is never simple....


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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790830 11/21/19 10:48 pm
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The use of leaded 100 octane fuel was initiated in 1939 the relevant engine data shows the increase in available HP.
RAF Hurricanes and Fairey Battles flying/fighting in France in early 1940 were using 100 octane fuel.

The B.O.B air battle commenced in around mid July 1940 and was considered finished in September (Sept 15th is Battle of Britain Day)
The figures i have show an increase from around 920 HP to the 1030 HP which was the listed HP for both the Hurricane Mk1a and
the Spitfire Mk1a and 1b also the Defiant and Battle. This generalisation does not state at what altitude the HP was available.
It is an interesting point that the use of sleeve valve type engine construction allows a flat plate type cylinder head which is of course
far better at resisting detonation than a hemi or pent roof type. Engineers at both Napier and Bristol were using this setup in the
early 30's to overcome the problem of lower octane fuels. Different approaches to overcoming a problem.

As for submarine detection, until the wider use of Asdic and centimetric radar in 1941 detection was looking for periscopes with binoculars.
The u boat 'happy time' records are a testament to that. Crossing the Atlantic in some clapped out old 6 knot heap along with 40 or 50
similar and protected by a few corvettes who themselves couldn't do more than around 15 knots.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790835 11/21/19 11:04 pm
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I recall help my Dad in the garden about 1974, we heard the sound of a heavy bomber flying over the village on the way to the Leuchars airshow, I think it was a Halifax or a Wellington maybe a Lancaster, 4 engined job. my father remarked " Last time I saw one of those it was dropping bombs on me " , Check out the " friendly fire " badly placed on the Polish 1st armoured division at the Battle of Falaise.
I read Lord of the Rings as a kid and loved it, as an adult the movie put me to sleep, the Hobbit was a travesty.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/21/19 11:48 pm.

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Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790859 11/22/19 12:38 am
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There’s something about the sound of a Merlin engine. It stands alone. And the Spitfire is just simply beautiful. If your heart doesn’t lift and your blood doesn’t stir when you hear and see one in flight then you are a dull dog indeed.
Others might be bigger, faster, shinier, blah, blah, blah, but the Spittie remains the Gold Standard.
As an ex-Raffie who had to turn out in full fig every BoB Day and was one of many background erk extras in that Battle of Britain film I still turn into a babbling old fart at that sight and sound. I can’t help myself and it annoys management no end.

Re: "Spitfire" [Re: gavin eisler] #790868 11/22/19 1:21 am
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i used to think a Merlin at full chat was the most spine tingling sound ever , until I heard 6 rover V8s on funny fuel , 3 down each side with a central jack shaft at the New Dear tractor pull. The smell was hellish, I think the fuel was doctored with thinners. A foo poo. as the commentator put it.


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