Classic British SparesKlempf British PartsBaxter CycleBritBike Sponsor SteadfastCyclesSRM EngineeringLucas Classic MotorcycleHepolite PistonsIndustrial tec supply

Upgrade your membership to: Premium Membership | Gold Membership | Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Welcome to BritBike Forum!
Britbike forum logo
Member Spotlight
Richard Phillips
Richard Phillips
San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 768
Joined: August 2001
ShoutChat
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments. Don't flame, hate, spam.
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 225
Likes: 1
D
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 225
Likes: 1
I have just aquired a 1978 Bonneville and am concerned about the vertical position of the kick starter, all other pictures of these bikes are not so straight-up. I have read that there appears to be a particular way that the spring is installed.
I am not new to British bikes as I have worked on and owned A65's since 1978, but this is new to me.

What do you think?

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Last edited by DickDastardly; 10/27/19 12:13 pm.



Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale: British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,746
Likes: 38
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,746
Likes: 38
Originally Posted by DickDastardly
I have read that there appears to be a particular way that the spring is installed.


That doesn't affect the stop position of the lever as the kickstart returns until the quadrant comes into contact with the stop pin.

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 225
Likes: 1
D
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 225
Likes: 1
So the reason for it's position is?




Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,488
Likes: 53
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,488
Likes: 53
The simplest way to get it vertical like that would be to grind a bit out of the quadrant where it touches the stop.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 225
Likes: 1
D
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 225
Likes: 1
So you think that it's a possibilty that the PO did that, rather than a part failure? So I may need to get a new quadrant to get it back to 'normal'?

Last edited by DickDastardly; 10/27/19 4:35 pm.



Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,746
Likes: 38
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,746
Likes: 38
Originally Posted by DickDastardly
So the reason for it's position is?


It's difficult to say without seeing the individual parts.

Possibly a ground quadrant (or stop pin) as TT says?
Or, reversed quadrant (due to engagement tooth wear) as that would advance the lever position?
Or, cotter flat machined in the wrong position on the shaft (as there are six splines on the shaft/quadrant joint the shaft/cotter flat can only be moved in 60 degree increments in either direction)?

Or something else?

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 225
Likes: 1
D
Britbike forum member
OP Offline
Britbike forum member
D
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 225
Likes: 1
Thanks that has given me something to work from.




Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,746
Likes: 38
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,746
Likes: 38
The factory manual if you don't have it yet: http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/Repair/1970s/73-78-Triumph-Bonneville-Tiger-Workshop-Manual.pdf

Spring setting information in section D3 & Fig.D6.
What the manual fails to mention is that the k/s spring needs to be tensioned one full turn before the outer cover is refitted.

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 2
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,067
Likes: 2
I recently saw a similar situation and was surprised at the number of differences there were in the various shafts and quadrants we had on hand. Perhaps compare your pieces to a known "good" set then work out what you need from there.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,488
Likes: 53
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,488
Likes: 53
Reversing the quadrant gave mine a forward lean.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,199
Likes: 10
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,199
Likes: 10
The shaft has probably been pressed into the quadrant one tooth 'out'. It shouldn't matter, if you can use it OK. Better than the much more typical condition, whereby the kickstart shaft is way too far back, due to incorrectly fitted cotter pins.


If anything other than a blank space is visible here, something's wrong.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 214
Likes: 1
TJD Offline
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 214
Likes: 1
Turn the cotter pin around with the nut pointing to the back.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,636
Likes: 109
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,636
Likes: 109
"Turn the cotter pin around with the nut pointing to the back."

That might fix the angle, but the cotter pin wont last long, and it will have a tendency to work slack.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,746
Likes: 38
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,746
Likes: 38
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
"Turn the cotter pin around with the nut pointing to the back."

That might fix the angle,


It might make a small difference but doubt it will fix the angle.

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,815
Likes: 87
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,815
Likes: 87
Hard to say. My Trident lever sits vertical, as yours does. My T120V lever sits at a slight angle, nothing like the A65 though.
First time I had the cover off the A65 the peg fell out un-noticed. My kicker ended up vertical until the next time I had the cover off. Maybe the stop peg is missing from my T150?


Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,931
Likes: 72
Q
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Q
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,931
Likes: 72
i would not put the cotter in backwards .
the kick shaft has (..had ) an angled flat and the cotter has an angled flat .
they are designed to go in 'only one way' for the wedges to properly fit .

the kick start quadrant and spring are pre-loaded , by winding the shaft ,
before placing on the inter-cover
[Linked Image from cdn11.bigcommerce.com]
... but then its ...
the inner cover that has the stop that controls the kick levers top/stop position
(part 4) ... once the outer cover is wiggled into place .
[Linked Image from mapcycle.com]
the stop could be missing[Linked Image from mapcycle.com]
... the parts , or parts fit , are worn by time
... or the quadrants- stop is out of spec ... or was never that tightly held .

if you want to fiddle with the stop angle ... adding some braze to the quadrants stop-radius
might be the simplest approach ?
.

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,428
Likes: 49
T
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,428
Likes: 49
Hi Dick, You can see if the gear is on backwards by looking into trans filler hole. Moving lever a little you should see the 1/2 tooth come up & engage pinion.

I did a little test on my bike. Setting bike on wheels my kicker lever sets at 73deg. from horizontal. Setting my adjustable protractor to vertical & going back 1 tooth on spline is 60deg. That puts the kicker lever about in center of the air filter cover.

One fellow bought a T140 from elder man that had kick start quadrant gear & pinion replaced with T150 parts to get easier kick. Current owner changed back to standard as he felt the cranking speed was too low. I don't know the kick lever angle with T150 gears though. You could mark pinion tooth with grease put bike in gear, pull clutch & turn rear wheel & count teeth. T140 is 18t, T150 is 22t.

Looking at web photos of T150 the levers are all over the place, but most are similar to my Tiger 750 original from new. It's where you expect it should be.

I wonder what the cotter bolt will look like. I don't have the angle of the flat on shaft in a good photo. I have a spare cover & quadrant/shaft I can dig out of shed & check.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,473
Likes: 58
knuckle head
Offline
knuckle head
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,473
Likes: 58
I ground away material from the kicker quadrent so the left is straght up to better clear the riders knee with rear set pegs on my LSR bike....The kicker shaft has 6 spines so pressing it on wrong would move it 60 degrees...TT mention he installed it "backward" and it's straight up,, a possibility..If the stop pin is missing it could probably more be more than 12 oclock unless something else stops it?


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons..
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked. “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,488
Likes: 53
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,488
Likes: 53
This one has the quadrant on backwards.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,938
Likes: 40
I
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
I
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,938
Likes: 40
BSA A65, and Triumph "Thruxton" road racers with rear-sets, just bent the kick-start lever forward to clear the rider's leg.
Photos show that the top half, or 3/4, of the modified lever will "parallel" the rider's leg when his foot is on the rear-set foot rest.

No need to open the gearbox end case to do this. Just remove the lever, use some torch heat, and make the bend.

There are plenty of used kick-start levers around, so no need to try this on your pristine original one.

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 137
Likes: 9
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 137
Likes: 9
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
"Turn the cotter pin around with the nut pointing to the back."

That might fix the angle, but the cotter pin wont last long, and it will have a tendency to work slack.


I have always fitted the cotter pin the 'wrong' way round and have not had a problem with the cotter pin coming loose. I also like the way it doesn't damage the kick start shaft this way, by have the flat of the cotter pin driving against the flat of the slot in the kickstart shaft as opposed to the having the round part bearing heavily again the flat and causing an indent.

It would also 'cure' the vertical position of the kickstart.


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,746
Likes: 38
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,746
Likes: 38
Originally Posted by Servodyne
I have always fitted the cotter pin the 'wrong' way........................

...........................It would also 'cure' the vertical position of the kickstart.


It doesn't.
Cotter pin fitted correctly.........:
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
........and, reversed!:
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Last edited by L.A.B.; 10/30/19 9:44 am. Reason: Wrong image
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 137
Likes: 9
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 137
Likes: 9
The angle of the kickstart lever will move by around 8 deg which is twice the angle of the taper on the cotter pin. This may be enough not to have the kickstart in such a vertical position.


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,259
Likes: 12
R
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
R
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,259
Likes: 12
...man; remove the outer cover to see what is going on (wrong) and to have peace of mind. Is very easy.

Hi L.A.B.; yesterday I put a new cotter pin and by you photos seem that PO put it the wrong way. I put it that way too...
What is the difference internally? I did not observed too much but did not noticed any.
I have the Hyde rear sets and that makes a bit more difficult to fit it the "right" way.

Thanks

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,746
Likes: 38
Britbike forum member
Offline
Britbike forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,746
Likes: 38
Originally Posted by Servodyne
The angle of the kickstart lever will move by around 8 deg which is twice the angle of the taper on the cotter pin. This may be enough not to have the kickstart in such a vertical position.


Inserting the cotter pin loose the wrong way it was possible to angle the lever back further but knocking the pin in just set it back to where it is in the second photo above.
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Originally Posted by reverb
yesterday I put a new cotter pin and by you photos seem that PO put it the wrong way. I put it that way too...
What is the difference internally? I did not observed too much but did not noticed any.


As far as the hole through the kickstart lever and the flat on the shaft is concerned then there isn't any difference as the hole is bored parallel and the flat on the shaft doesn't appear to be angled in either direction as far as I can tell.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  John Healy 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Job CycleBritish Cycle SupplyMorries PlaceKlempf British PartsPodtronicVintage MagazineBSA Unit SinglesBritBike SponsorBritish Tools & FastenersBritBike SponsorBritBike Sponsor






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5