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KSS donk into swing arm frame project #689781 03/28/17 11:48 pm
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Joolstacho Offline OP
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Over many years I gathered most of the parts to build a KSS/RS.
The engine is a mk2 KSS, and has been polished extensively inside -crank and rod. All very sparkly!
The piston look rather lumpy for a KSS, (it's standard size, new) I haven't assembled the top yet but when I do I'll measure compression ratio. (Could it be a KTT piston?)
The barrel is Alfin with standard unused bore. Much bigger finning than a KSS.

Note the frame / engine plates. The lower mount hole doesn't align with the frame lugs, so one or other will have to be moved.
I'll need to make up dummy front engine mount plates (I have a VM pattern) to see which is the best way to go.
Gearbox is late KSS / MSS, Rear plates I'm not sure what model they're off, could be MAF.
Those frame lugs are pinned and brazed, I think they might be difficult to shift... how difficult I don't know.
Has anyone done this? I might have to plough through my 260 Fishtails to do some homework!
-Jools

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Just in case people might not know the background to this KSS/RS project.
The much loved OHC KSS engine was never fitted into the swing-arm frame by the factory. It was too expensive to produce, having vertical shaft bevel-drive OHC, so production of the KSS OHC engine finished in 1948, the final version of the KSS was in the rigid rear, with Dowty (air) forks.
The best bike Velocette never made! Perhaps Ivan Rhodes' was the first one I saw, in 'Always in the picture'
So it has been a project popular with the Velo 'cognoscenti' I think people see it as a genuine Velocette, just one that the factory didn't actually do.

Last edited by Joolstacho; 04/15/17 1:18 am. Reason: fact-fix!
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Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #689782 03/29/17 12:22 am
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Really interesting stuff. Now, this will pique interest in the Velo forum for sure, I reckon ! Good one, J.

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #693395 04/29/17 11:37 am
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Hi Joolstacho, Writing with much trepidation as I have virtually no understanding of motorbike technicals, let alone Velos (Joolstacho rightly rolls his eyes!) I am however a lifelong Velo enthusiast who recently decided that saving for retirement is simply over-rated and went out and bought me a Velo …… KSS MkII engine in a swinging arm frame (unsure of actual frame or gearbox model). And it’s LAMS approved! ;-)

Either way it’s a complete running bike, and has been since long before I got it, so it may able to help you!

Firstly I can see no sign of any mods to frame lugs - they look pristine. I had photos but apparently I need them on a server to attach them. If I can pm you they're yours.
Looking closely I’ve noted both front engine mounts and rear engine/gearbox mounts appear of same age and both look to be different (finish-wise) to the rest of the bike… as if both are later additions/mods made as a pair.
Another photo showed the vertical shaft sitting at about 4 degrees forward of vertical … apparently this forward lean on the engine is common to all OHC engines in swinging arm frames.

I hope this has somehow helped! And if I say something above that’s wrong, please correct.

The learning curve is very, very steep.

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #693435 04/29/17 11:04 pm
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Joolstacho Offline OP
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That's very helpful mate, I'm still dealing with engine/gearbox plates at the moment. My idea now is to locate everything from the lower frame lug mount and lower rear crankcase hole, and adapt the plates to suit.
Q: Do your rear plates completely encircle the gearbox or are they like the later VM VR type which are a 'C' shape, and are open at the rear?
Is your gearbox the earlier type, or later type? (Don't be so modest, we all have something to contribute!
Cheers.

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #693468 04/30/17 9:02 am
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My rear plates encircle the whole gearbox, they look similar to those in your pics. Gearbox is embossed KR16 which i understand is either KSS or MSS. Cheers!

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #694492 05/09/17 12:46 am
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After a false start with a custom-made set of plates, and a bit of agonising I've resolved the mountings as follows.

I reverted to the plates shown, and I 'anchored' everything from the lower frame mount lug using that as the starting-point. This means that no cutting/welding/moving of that frame lug needed. Good.
The gearbox plates align with the crankcases and the frame lug without alteration. I've made new front engine mounts to fit. Easy. Note the gearbox plates, see circled bolt-holes, the top rear -a new hole drilled, up and back from original hole. Fine.

The lower hole comes too close to the rear edge of the plate, so I've left the hole small for now, and I'll weld on a strip of 1/4" steel to this edge and then drill the bolt hole to size.
I've checked with barrel and head on and it all fits under the frame top tube with about 1/2" to spare. So it should work.

[Linked Image]

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #700999 07/07/17 12:53 am
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Joolstacho Offline OP
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Has anyone seen an RS frame that has a steering head lug like this?
Note that it has no steering stop protruberence coming down (where also the steering damper is anchored).
Mine just has a hole drilled in the little web as can be seen. It's a '53-'54 MAC frame - has no sidecar 'ring' lug on the downtube.

[Linked Image]

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #717915 12/06/17 2:26 pm
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Hi Jools, moving the footrest lugs is definitely the way to go. They are pinned and brazed but with heat and perseverance they will move.
We found they had to be moved to be able to install a generator in the normal position

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #717969 12/06/17 10:25 pm
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Joolstacho Offline OP
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The consensus of opinion around here was that the heating (and bashing!) involved in moving the lugs could compromise the strength of the frame tubing.
So I went the other route as per the above pic, involving making new front mounts and slightly altering the rear plates rear mount holes.
It all fits fine and the dynamo will just squeeze in there.

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #758722 12/09/18 11:49 pm
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Just a brief update on this project. (No need to rush things eh?!)
I can confirm that my method of engine mounting - minor adaptation of rear engine plates, cut new front plates, and no moving of the lower frame lugs, works a treat*.
The motor is vertical in the frame. It sits down between the frame lower tubes nicely - bottom of the cases level with the bottom of the tubes, so there's good clearance under the top tube Just a little easing with a file facilitated this.
The dynamo fits fine. A bonus is that the standard KSS primary cases fit perfectly (THX Uncle Norm).
*There may be slight differences between variations of frames eg MAC VR VM etc, and Mk1 & Mk2 KSS motors, but my pairing MK2 KSS motor in a Swing-arm MAC frame works a treat.

I have been battling a bit with the vertical cam drive shaft arrangement. My barrel is KTT Alfin -which is a little shorter than KSS, stroke is standard, but the con-rod is shorter. It may be KTT but I haven't confirmed this yet.
Compression in this configuration was over 11:1, - perhaps okay for avgas or alcohol but no good with the crap we run on nowadays. So I made a cylinder packer which has brought the ratio to a more sane 8.5:1
Anyway all this means that the standard vertical shaft needs shortening by approx 7mm, a new Oldham slot cut, and the Oldham couplings fitted (precisely). It's all very hard steel, need to get a Diamond file.

Rolling chassis is all done, almost everything is mounted. Uncle Norm came up the other day and left the SEXIEST zorst I've ever seen, I think it might be manx Norton.
I couldn't resist it, -(he really knows how to make a designer go weak at the knees). Mind you he walked away with a set of Webbs. However I'll need to fit the boy-racer kickstart blanking plate I (luckily) have because the pipe won't fit with the kickstarter arrangement.
I was half considering this anyway, because the Velocette low kickstart ratio is not a lot better than bump-starting. (Next project- a roller starter!)

I'll post some new pics before too long.

PS I have accurate drawings of my engine plates which will be available once I have scans of them done (and stitched up).

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #758739 12/10/18 1:51 am
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Thanks for posting, I do enjoy a Velo tale.

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #771438 04/18/19 11:03 pm
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Just an update on my KSS R/S Project. As you can see it's come quite a long way, -mind you, it's taking a long time, as it shares my time with other projects!

Most of the more difficult problems are sorted, but I'm sure there'll be plenty of confused cogitating to go yet!

The vertical camdrive shaft length isn't quite right yet. As you can see it's assembled without the outer vertical tube so I can check clearances (Because my conrod is shorter than standard KSS- probably a KTT rod, the shaft needed shortening by about 7mm). Very hard steel, took lots of passes in the Fanuc.
It's assembled nicely with selected thickness Oldham couplings but has about .001" clearance, -it needs minimum .012", so I need to sort that. It's easy to see why Velo couldn't afford to keep making these OHC engines post-war, they're so time-consuming to set up. (Mind you, they didn't need to go to the other extreme and produce the Noddy-bike did they!?)

I finished painting the tank yesterday, using the Thruxton silver colour with gold pinstripe, but with the nice plastic tank-badges. -Not ALL Velos need to be black! Call it a ThruKSSton?
I will be fitting the cowl type headlight arrangement which has a cool late '50's look. Bit of fettling on that rear tank mount, and it'll be nice and level with the finning.
That nice Pipe (which I think is a Manx Norton pipe) has a really nice 'line' to it,- very happy with that, but it means it'll be a bump-starter, which is no real problem. I had the racing blanking plate 'in-stock', I just need to clarify what bearing it needs. I do have a fishtail, but I think a short megga will suit it better.


[Linked Image]

Last edited by Joolstacho; 04/18/19 11:25 pm. Reason: elaboration
Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #784760 09/19/19 10:18 am
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The project crawls on at snail's pace.

Last few days I had been on the prowl for Monobloc 376 carb / parts, but I was ahead of myself! (If you can help with 1 1/16" Monobloc 376 or parts PLEASE yell).

The latest information. I've been assembling the primary transmission etc, clutch and engine shaft shock absorber are all good, but I've found that that I have the wrong 9-Plate type sleeve gear nut - easily fixed. BUT...

2 things need adaptation.
Problem#1: The Primary Chaincase needs doctoring, (well, that's MY word for it!) -to fit. It's a standard post-war PCC, but it just touches the lower left frame tube/footrest mount. It just needed a couple of mm removed, along about 60mm of the lower edge of the PCC.

Now, I'm anal when it comes to motorbikes and angle-grinders, a pet hate, I've never... well rarely, actually done it, but with this installation there was just no way 'round it, I had to remove a couple of mm of the PCC so it didn't hit the frame. It's in a good cause and I've confessed to my Guru, telling him that I shall own-up at the pearly gates, and hopefully with frequent bowing in the direction of Hall Green I MAY be saved.
(Anyway it could be easily reversed with a little sheet-metal work and a decent welder). My conscience is almost clear!

Problem#2: The petrol tank LH side tunnel lower seam JUST touches the decompressor boss on the cylinder head. Again, it's only a couple of mm.
So I've... err... relieved a 'smidge' of alloy from the boss on the head, and another 'smidge' off the inner tunnel seam of the tank.
She'll be right, brother Darrell (Silversmith) has given me the right silver-solder to re-seal that seam better than new.

A third minor issue surfaced, which is that I don't have quite enough movement of the gearbox to fit/tension the primary chain. If I could put a small notch in the rear plates that would fix it, but I'm loath to dismantle the whole thing now to do that. So If I can find a primary chain (428 size) half-link, that'll fix it.

Today I've had a bit of a setback, in that I've discovered that my vertical camdrive shaft has the Oldham slots machined incorrectly. They are at 90deg to one-another, whereas they should be parallel.
BUGGER!!! Amazing. Why the P.O. did this is a mystery.
After old mate TonyCNC had re-machined everything to get the clearances right - (it's a pretty exacting business), even after the CNC machining I still had to spend at least a day diamond-filing the slots and Oldhams to get the clearances right. All wasted effort.

My faithful Guru should be able to supply another shaft, and then I'll need to go through the machining / fitting process yet again.

(Tell me... WHY I am doing this again?!)

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #787908 10/23/19 8:54 am
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Here's a thought... A head-steady.
Obviously many bikes use a head-steady, but when you look at this thing, I reckon a head-steady would put big stresses on the cylinder studs and head bolts. These items are IMHO under-engineered, and with a solid head-steady I cringe at the thought of the stresses on the cylinder studs and headbolts.
I'm going to make a head-steady, but it will have a rubber insulation setup to insulate the mounts. My next job. I remember on RZ Yamahas they used nice rubber insulated rods on the front lower engine mounts.
I might look at fabricating something like that.
Any ideas/comments appreciated as always.

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #787909 10/23/19 9:28 am
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The engine would be solidly mounted at the bottom, but flexibly held at the top.

That wouldn’t be a head steady at all.


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Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #787912 10/23/19 12:24 pm
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Yes well, the idea being that the semi-insulated head-steady mount would provide a modicum of shock absorption, instead of transmitting harsh vibration into the vulnerable cylinder studs.
Most head steadies are not very rigid anyway, usually just working in a fore and aft direction. I'd just be adding a slightly more sophisticated control.

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #787917 10/23/19 2:18 pm
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They are supposed to be “fore and aft,” to stop the engine rocking when the piston changes direction. It can make a big difference to vibration.

A rubber mounted one on a Velocette sounds like a joke.


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Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #787955 10/23/19 10:04 pm
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Have you ever seen the Commando head-steady arrangement TT? It's dampened by springs, - not solid, and with a rubber mount.
Yes I do realise this was part of the Isolastic system, but even so...
I wouldn't consider doing this on a Venom, but perhaps you're not familiar with the KSS Barrel / head mounting studs/bolts arrangement that I'm dealing with here. Not the most inspiring piece of engineering!

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #788015 10/24/19 11:22 am
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Quote
It's dampened by springs, - not solid, and with a rubber mount.


There are several versions the last OEM version had a spring to tune out the low rev vibes by lifting the engine and helping the front and rear iso mounts centralise, no damping involved. A spring on its own cannot damp, only with a damper attached as per a shock absorber.

The non OEM upgrades go further and limit the movement to a single plane rather that allowing the side to side the OEM rubber buffers do, this improves the handling with less of a hinge effect as the head steady now matches the movement of the front and rear iso mounts.

So the isolastics have no correlation with your setup of a rigidly mounted engine in frame.

If you want to save the head studs you need to find another method.

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #788017 10/24/19 11:36 am
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Originally Posted by Joolstacho
Have you ever seen the Commando head-steady arrangement TT? It's dampened by springs, - not solid, and with a rubber mount.
Yes I do realise this was part of the Isolastic system, but even so...
I wouldn't consider doing this on a Venom, but perhaps you're not familiar with the KSS Barrel / head mounting studs/bolts arrangement that I'm dealing with here. Not the most inspiring piece of engineering!


The Commando had a rubber mounted engine and power train. Fitting a solid head steady to one would be a very strange thing to do.

I don’t know whether a rigid head steady damages a Velo top end. I just can’t see a flexible one being of any use.


Last edited by triton thrasher; 10/24/19 3:31 pm.

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Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #788022 10/24/19 12:10 pm
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Joolstacho Offline OP
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QUOTE: "I don’t know whether a rigid head steady damages a Venom top end..."

Well, It's NOT a Venom, that's the point. It's a KSS. The KSS I'm dealing with is a very different arrangement. (Are you familiar with it?) As I said earlier, the studs and headbolts are UNDER-ENGINEERED, and about 70 years after it was made, it's even more of an issue in terms of structural integrity.
I just think of it like this: Any mechanical stress will be naturally transmitted to the next 'hard fixing' in the structure. Those stresses will then be transmitted to the next 'hard-fixing' in the structure. And so on, down the line.

Good engineering involves 'grading' the various structural elements so that stresses are not concentrated at any one particular point. E.g Aeroplane wings are not rigid, they are designed with a degree of flexibility so as to spread stresses throughout the structure, because if the stresses are concentrated at any one point, that's where it will break.

I DON'T want a rigid top end, because that would concentrate the stresses at the cylinder stud threads, where failure would result in damage that would be catastrophic. (Unless you can tell me where I can get a spare set of KSS Mk2 Crankcases!) :-)

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #788026 10/24/19 2:03 pm
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Jool,
I am not familiar with the KSS headbolt arrangement, but taking your word that it is under engineered and bolting a rigid head steady to it would be asking for trouble, I recall reading about an old Norton single that someone used to tour the world with. As I recall the article, something broke while on tour (a headbolt perhaps) and parts weren't available. A screwjack or something similar was inserted between the top of the engine and the frame as a temporary fix that apparently remained in place for many years and many miles. Clearly a bodge, but I wonder if you couldn't use the same principle to address both your desire for a head steady and the KSS's weak headbolts. You could probably come up with a fitting a bit more elegant than a wedged screwjack, but basically it would be doing the same thing.

Ed from NJ

Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #788032 10/24/19 3:40 pm
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Yeah I don’t know why I wrote Venom there.

It would take some pretty clever computer modelling or a lot of road and track testing to determine whether a head steady makes stress on the top end fasteners on an individual bike better or worse.

Velocette had road and track experience. What did they plump for?


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Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #788038 10/24/19 4:06 pm
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During September I did 2400 miles in 10 days on a mk2 KSS (Cross Country Chase). No problems other than a flat tire and a fouled plug. I don't recall the head fixing arrangement ever causing any significant problems with these motors. If your worried you could re-engineer the whole arrangement with through studs and securing nuts like a Venom I would think. If you really want a spare set of cases I have a few available.


Laurence Luce
Re: KSS donk into swing arm frame project [Re: Joolstacho] #788067 10/24/19 10:39 pm
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Maybe I'm overthinking it... But I'll continue cogitating!
Everyone's input is appreciated, I for one, enjoy the discussion.
(I'll find out what they did on the KTT, -I'd guess they used steel inserts in the crankcases, but I'll find out).


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