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Remove the flywheel Permanently #767556 03/08/19 5:13 pm
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Denis J Offline OP
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Hi all

Getting a T120 bitsa back together for off road racing and scrambles riding.

Has anyone removed a Brit twin flywheel and run it? I wanted to know if there are any issues experienced that I can not foresee. At this time it looks really straight forward.
remove > re-balance > do wheelies> get chicks

I am interested in deleting the flywheel altogether. I have been lucky enough to have done this in many a different racing disciplines from dirt bikes to sprint car racing. We added weight for road and drag racing. I appreciate the willingness for insight on the hypothesis, but I am really just interested in first hand experience. Thanks for understanding.

Did any of you find a detrimental flaw to this idea? Broken parts etc?

Thanks for your help



...no idea what your doing
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Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #767562 03/08/19 5:57 pm
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Quote
remove > re-balance > do wheelies> get chicks


Stall > put flywheel back in.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #767599 03/08/19 11:19 pm
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Some trailbikes have an external flywheel (inside covers, easy to remove)( but not british.)
I know someone who removed it, same goals.

Made it more like a 2 stroke than a 2 stroke !
10,000+ rpms at the mere flick of the wrist.

But, what TT said.
Soon as the rpms got low-ish, just stopped dead in its tracks.

It was fun while you could keep it going though....

Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #767603 03/08/19 11:42 pm
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Dennis J, give it a try and report back.

kind regards Peter


'74 T140V,'83 XR1000, C&J FLATTRACKER T140,
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: triton thrasher] #767624 03/09/19 5:07 am
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Denis J Offline OP
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Quote
remove > re-balance > do wheelies> get chicks


Stall > put flywheel back in.


Yeah
I assumed it may be a bit frustrating. I may give it a shot to see. This is my bitsa bike. It’s well adjusted to quick tear down


...no idea what your doing
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #776959 06/20/19 8:29 pm
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flyingsquirrel Offline
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Years ago i had the pleasure of working on an A10 chopper, It had instant revs and vibrated insanely. Long story was the customer never came back and 30 years later I broke the engine down for parts and that the flywheel had been totally removed.


196? BSA A65 Beater
1974 Silk-Scott
1929 Scott TT Replica
1960 Francis Barnett 150
1958 Scott Red Squirrel
2001 Derbi GPR
1979 Silk 700S
1961 Matchless G3L
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Rohan] #776990 06/21/19 2:13 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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Originally Posted by Rohan
Some trailbikes have an external flywheel (inside covers, easy to remove)( but not british.)


The alternator is a flywheel of sorts, a friend who has a T100 rickman Matise (single carb) doesn't have an alternator on this competition MX bike, that makes quite a bit of difference to how it revs.


beerchug
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #777449 06/28/19 12:20 am
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The chap who built the BSA Bantam 125 cc road racer I had many years ago removed the external ignition flywheel as it apparently wasn't safe to turn at anything over 5000 rpm and as it was approaching the 100mph mark with the same third gear on the three speed close ratio set as the third gear on the original three speed set, something in excess of 5000 rpm was being used. Ignition was with a 6 volt battery and a Packard ignition coil and that would last for a day of fun before the battery had to be recharged. As I was riding mostly in the dirt, I had the local machine shop make me a 10 tooth gearbox sprocket to replace the original 15 tooth one and it provided me with some fun days. The carb was one with 1 1/8 inch bore and with all the internal modifications it was fun.

Wish I still had the little beast. In those days, one bike at a time was the norm and so it got sold so I could buy the bike I needed for the next adventure.

Cheers, Wilf


"It's about the ride..."
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #786264 10/05/19 4:39 am
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If you have the crankshaft cut in half and bolted at 90degee on a new flywheel it can be both lighter and smoother provided you have it dynamically balanced. Because the pistons don't stop and start together when one does stop to reverse direction, the other is at high speed doubling as a flywheel. The uneven power pulses will also drive better.


mark
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Mark Parker] #786599 10/08/19 11:21 pm
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Denis J Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
If you have the crankshaft cut in half and bolted at 90degee on a new flywheel it can be both lighter and smoother provided you have it dynamically balanced. Because the pistons don't stop and start together when one does stop to reverse direction, the other is at high speed doubling as a flywheel. The uneven power pulses will also drive better.



I like this. I saw your thread showing the crankshaft some time ago. I need to find that. You cut an A10 crank right?

Removal of the flywheel captures 2 rough ideas for me. 1 is to eliminate the whipping and 2 is to increase the on throttle acceleration. Strictly for off-road and overall fun factor.


...no idea what your doing
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #786631 10/09/19 10:43 am
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Ducati V twins are 90 degree and have flywheels on the outside and rev to 10,000 rpm plus.Some use a lighter flywheel for racing but they suck on the street at lower rpm's. You can buy new billet 76 dgree cranks for Triumphs,MAP in Florida has them .$1950, not inexpensive, they have flywheels.. You also need to cut and weld or buy new cams and deal with the ignition.....Dick Harris on this site has a 76 degree Triumph,Actually almost all use a 76 degree set up I have seen and heard the bike,yup, sounds like a small Ducati..He used a bolt together pre unit Triumph crank and had a reptuable machine shop rephase it..It retains the flywheel. It's a great modification on a Triumph if you can justify the cost, far less vibration...On a Triumph I have never seen a back to back comparison on the power output between a 360 and 76 degree engine that are otherwise identical...Four cylinder inline Japanese bike engines often have minimal flywheels..
You'll never know unless you do it, right?


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #786693 10/10/19 9:01 am
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Some background info on the 76 degree and how it came about, ie Phil Irving.

https://www.xs650.org.au/Technical%20Info/smoothness.htm

Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #786699 10/10/19 1:01 pm
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Here you go; The halves are a precise fit in the new flywheel so it acts to true the crank. The weights on the flywheel match with those on the end sections so it's individually balanced. You can see the ends of the other balance piece's bolts on the flywheel. You need some flywheel, but not as much. There is a decent groove on the other side for oil supply to the left big end.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Last edited by Mark Parker; 10/10/19 1:03 pm.

mark
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #786708 10/10/19 3:23 pm
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DMadigan Offline
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What Dan Macias (US race team manager) did was move the counterbalance weight to the outside webs on his Triumph twin. That reduced the whipping in the middle.

Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: DMadigan] #786729 10/10/19 9:29 pm
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
What Dan Macias (US race team manager) did was move the counterbalance weight to the outside webs on his Triumph twin. That reduced the whipping in the middle.

That's interesting.. there's little room for addition metal on the outside webs, might have used a "heavy" metal..? At speed a Triumph crank can supposedly flex as much as .025 inch, that's why the clearance between the flywheel and cam lobes must be creater than this...
A light flywheel will show more HP on an inertia dyno like Dynojet but in reality the true power is the same reguardless of the flywheel weight...
When I was drag racing cars, a heavier flywheel was used in a heavy manual trans car for a better launch off the line..Lighter wheels in light cars or for road racing...With the usual 90 degree V8, a light flywheel on the street made the engine feel lumpier at low speeds and the RPM dropped more quickly between shifts.
Heavy flywheels are supposedly better able to "absorb" torsional crank harmonics, I don't know if that's an issue with short length Brit twin cranks


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #786786 10/11/19 12:15 pm
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kevin roberts Offline
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i find the whole idea of crank flexing in a twin to be mechanically horrifying.

that flex has to accomodated either by the crank wiggling in the mains or by tbe cases breathing in and out.

how these old pigs hold together constantly amazez me.


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #786838 10/11/19 6:35 pm
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Denis J Offline OP
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Long read - sorry and thanks again for entertaining my crazy ideas..

I like the Idea of moving the weight outside so It can become adjustable. Since this bike made of leftovers is for dirt fun I assume a stator is completely unnecessary allowing a custom primary cover (magneto timing cover)

I am always reading conflicting information on the need for a flywheel in racing

My limited experience in racing revealed to me that the lightest possible rotating assembly was the fastest around and down the track

In 99 I did my best to build (on a minimum wage budget) a drag racing car out of my daily driver 1985 VW Golf 8v
Saving the specifics the car made 176hp at the wheels on a Mustang brand brake dyno (2 rollers). This dyno was at the shop where I worked so I was always checking every modification.
Just for comparison a friendly shop let me check my car on their Dynajet inerta dyno 1 roller as we were having the conversation that the Mustang dynos are consistently low compared to Dynajet stuff - Sure enough my car with no modifications since it's 176 pull made 208 on his dyno. All the correction and calibration factors aside amongst the car guys it was said the Mustang read on average 20-25% lower for some reason.

On the Mustang dyno my car gained no power when I swapped the 28lb flywheel for the 7lb unit I made on a brake lathe.
At the race track (1/4 mile drag strip) I gained a consistent half-second in my overall ET. Not just one run but from then on. The car felt like I picked up 15+ horsepower - the original seat of the pants dyno. Fastest run 13.1..a proud skinny broke kid was I.

Later in life I applied the same flywheel tactic to my over budget 350 powered 67 Firebird and no change. From the heavy 30lb flywheel to an alloy 10lb unit showed no faster at the drag strip but the seat of the pants pulling power felt amazing. The car was hard to handle overall since it was making 4x more power than the VW and weighed 3000lbs with me in it and the fuel cell full at 5 gal.

In my road racing try I was running a CB200 around the Sonoma track here in California. I shaved 8 seconds off my lap times that day by removing the stator flywheel in the parking lot. The bike pulled so much harder without that extra mass to spin up and that seemed consistent with the other GP200 riders.

In my sand drag racing experience the guys with flywheels were the spectators. None of us ran flywheels on our modern Methanol/Nitro powered single cyl stuff and the big boys ran no flywheels also.

Sprint cars- no flywheels
Top fuel drag racing - No flywheels, but there is a clutch pack

Speedway motorcycles - heavy crank/flywheels - Needed? likely yes..the ability for the heavy mass to store energy is useful..I raced a 4 valve jawa then a 4 valve Weslake and I cant imagine not having that power stored up and already spinning when trying to turn with the rear wheel

Road Racing?..I don't believe a heavy flywheel is useful (subjective I know)..then again maybe it is completely track and driver/rider dependent. Think autocross - building an autocross car requires to assemble lightest possible ride (within budget) with the quickest engine. I have always understood a light flywheel is similar to a light vehicle -less mass to move.

Having mush less rotating mass should actually free up power as it takes less energy to make it spin, it should, but I did not see it on my 1 dyno test back in the ol days on my VW.

Technically when the target RPM is reached then there is much less power needed to keep a heavy spinning flywheel there..maybe land speed racing?...generators?....Pumps?

I am a firm believer that I can go faster without one, but will it possible on the Triumph engine I have slated for this dirt bike?

When it comes to hill-climbing and off road wheelie machines I cant see a reason for one as it is also a detriment to the engine in such an abusive environment. I expect to see low rpm grunt to the common loss of traction off a jump, high rpm spin up and maybe damaging flywheel flex
Not to mention it can shave 20+ lbs from the engine overall smile

..but having said all that I really like the idea of 76 degrees and a flywheel mounted outside if possible...




Last edited by Denis J; 10/11/19 6:40 pm.

...no idea what your doing
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #786875 10/12/19 2:22 am
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DMadigan - [What Dan Macias (US race team manager) did was move the counterbalance weight to the outside webs on his Triumph twin. That reduced the whipping in the middle.]

Hillbilly bike - [That's interesting.. there's little room for addition metal on the outside webs, might have used a "heavy" metal..? At speed a Triumph crank can supposedly flex as much as .025 inch]

It does seem to make sense to have more of the balancing weights as close as possible to the main bearings, rather than in the unsupported centre.
The problem, as I see it in the usual 360 deg crank, is that the main onus for simple balance factor is to remove material from the central flywheel, thus making the centre line of the crankshaft out of balance in order to mitigate imbalances which derive further outwards from the centerline (crankpins, rods, pistons).
Rarely are the cheeks (pork chops) modified, except in small degrees in dynamic balancing. So the centrifugal imabalnce at the centre can be considerable (we've seen some Swiss cheese flywheels on this site), to achieve balance factors varying from say 50% to 85%.
I can only imagine that the change of cheek shape over the years was to do with changes of intended balance factors, responding to changes of frame and from pre-unit to unit and so on, such that the desired balance factor could be achieved without enormous drilling of the flywheel.

In a sense, this is partly what I suspect DMadigan was speaking of. Use of cranks with heavier outer cheeks, and extra mass could be added fore and aft of them, such that less dependence on the flywheel for (im)balance is required. These imbalances will be as near as possible to the main bearings, exerting much less "whip" on the crankshaft.
Of course mass added to the cheeks has much less effect compared to mass at the flywheel (due to the smaller radius of the cheeks) but it might not be a bad thing to spread the balancing more widely across the length of the crank, and to address rocking couples.

In the case of the 90 or 76 deg arrangement the balancing is more complex, and I think a single im(balance of the central flywheel to be even less suitable than in the case of the 360 twin.
I can see how Mark Parker has place the counter weights on opposite sides of the flywheel, but I doubt this will be remotely enough to counter the rocking couple from the staggered crankpins. The 2 weights being so close together, both longitudinally and circumferentially, pretty much add up as a single central weight.
I think this would be a case for extra weights on the cheeks, in effect each crank half can be independently dynamically balanced.
Just thoughts, admiration to you guys doing such stuff!

BTW flywheel weight and crank balance are independent things, so you may put your (perfectly balanced) flywheel outside the crankcase, but you still have to deal with balancing of the crank assembly inside the cases.

Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: koan58] #786893 10/12/19 10:41 am
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Belt cam drive 90 degree Ducatis from the 80's till now have vertical split crankcases with roller main bearings and plain bearing connecting rods just like Triumph. Howver the Ducati has an extra outrigger main bearing on each side and both rods run on a shared crankpin like a V8.....The highest performancr making 200 hp per litre with emission equipment may have use plain main bearings.
The flywheel is mounted one left outside the crank cases along with the alternator...Balancing is done on crank cheeks and external flywheel...I believe they are balanced 50 percent just like a V8
This a typical Ducati crank,this one is from a high out engine using heavy metal insets ......

[Linked Image from 2040-parts.com]

This a the balanced rotating assemnly I used in a 70 Triumph with a 750 kit....Balancing was done on the flywheel and the cheeks or "porkchops". I choose 72 % balancing factor that wasn't the best for this engine in a 70 frame...Engine was smooth up to about 55 mph and then increased vibration till about 65 MPH where it smoothed out nicely for a 360 twin...part of the problem was the gearing, I thought less rpm might better at 60-65 mph...Wrong, I should have changed the overall gearing from 4.38 to something around 4.70...
This crank is nitrited and the jounals ground to fit the torqued .010 bearings in the rods..

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #786907 10/12/19 3:40 pm
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Dan made a new crank to move the counterweight, not modify a stock crank.

Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: DMadigan] #786911 10/12/19 4:21 pm
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Dan made a new crank to move the counterweight, not modify a stock crank.

You have a photo of it in the crankcase..? How long ago was it? Are any current racers using it...? Tim Joyce was the fastest rider on a 750 Triumph for a few years back about 8 years ago..I don't know what type of crank he ran other than it was not likley stock considering his engine made about 75 RWHP...
This interests me because all the current fastest Triumph LSR bikes are using 360 degree cranks with the central flywheel...Alp Racing who has broken about every 650 pushrod record and his 175 mph naked frame Triumph makes in excess of 130 HP on Nitro runs a stock NOS Triumph crankshaft...It's not road racing but it is running flat out for 3 miles....
If a 90 degree crank or one with no central flywheel is actually is proven to make more power at top end, it might be worth the cost...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #786959 10/13/19 2:07 am
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To make 75rwhp Tim's 750 probably needed 8500rpm which I think from memory was what he was spinning. To spin that rpm makes the hp possible and his tuning was aimed at that sort of rpm. Ideally you would use a shorter stroke. In 1970 at Umberslade the BSA guys were testing an A65 with A10 crank at 79hp on their engine dynos. The same hp as the race triples they were developing. The short stroke triple was running to 9500rpm. The A65 to 7500rpm. Max hp @ 7000 with max hp on the 3 @ 8500. The long stroke more fragile twin crank limited rpm. A70 cranks were made stronger. But still rpm limited by piston speed. Big bore and 74mm stroke means 9000rpm is possible and you can tune for it if the crank is strong enough. Why using a 90 degree configuration becomes more desirable. Using nuts and bolts to hold it together may look primitive, and the sections thin in places but it seems quite strong, the flange area is greater than that of a 3 piece Norton crank and it has more bolts.


Last edited by Mark Parker; 10/13/19 3:44 am.

mark
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #786970 10/13/19 11:21 am
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Yes, I believe it was about 8500 rpm...I spoke to Tim a bit on his engine and the connecting rod problems he had early on before using MAP steel rods..To get that power from a Triumph would require extensive head modification...Stories like the intake ports raised until they protruded through the top of the cylinder head...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #786974 10/13/19 12:26 pm
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It's brilliant stuff. There is an onboard video at some track with a long uphill straight the thing flys. He's in a race with a 3cyl Kawasaki that gets past right at the top end where Tim's top gear lets him down because of the big gap between 4th and 5th. At least that's how it seems to me, when he changes it drops too many rpm so he's out of the best power zone for the high speed he's doing. I'll see if I can find the video.

Not the video I was talking about but a race at Barber 2010, without the long uphill section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZlg5roqMCk


mark
Re: Remove the flywheel Permanently [Re: Denis J] #787056 Yesterday at 03:36 PM
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HB - Dan told me about it long ago. I think he built the crank when he was race manager, around '71-'72. It could have been in the 800cc DT cheater he built for himself but I do not know. I never took the motor apart, just finished it for his son-in-law.

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