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Old Smokey B44 project. #786602 10/08/19 11:51 pm
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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I found a 1970 B44 VS that had been in a fire and left outdoors for several years. Being a motorcycle enthusiast and metal fabricator I hope to build a motorcycle from what remains. I could find an easier project but I rather enjoy repairing things when possible. On a side note I am very familiar with the racing/trials heritage and hope this will end up as a MX or trials project.

Let us begin. I have a couple Bultaco projects going and while browsing local ads I got a gimps of a B44 in a junk pile and paid the $100 asking price.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Day1 by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr


The back of the bike got the worst of the fire. Carb and tank were melted, pipe was hardly discolored, rubber partially melted. Electrics completely gone.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

I started by power washing to remove organic junk like lichen, plant matter and leaves. It was as this point I knew it's true identity which I read to believe is a 1970 model.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Not to terribly burnt.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

solder melted from rocker oil lines.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Rocker box

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

After being in a fire a motorcycle is dried out meaning the oil and gaskets are all gone along with seals and any plastic parts. I soaked cotton balls in penetrating oil (acetone and ATF or PB blaster) and let them rest.


More after dinner.


















Last edited by Frank the Welder; 10/08/19 11:56 pm.
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Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #786603 10/08/19 11:56 pm
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I asssssume you are in Bellows Fall, VT ?

Either way, welcome to BritBike and I look forward to seeing your progress. I'm up around Montpelier and have a 1967 VE as a future project.


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1971 BSA A65 650 - Project
1972 Norton Commando 750 "Combat"

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Jon W. Whitley] #786605 10/09/19 12:17 am
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Yes, 18 Granger street, just south of town. Thank you!

Last edited by Frank the Welder; 10/09/19 9:18 am.
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #786606 10/09/19 12:39 am
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[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Plenty of fire along the way.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Rocker cover off. Everything is filled with soil.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Earned a few dents in rocker box. I hope I can smooth this out later,

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Piston was hopelessly stuck at BDC so I started drilling holes.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

I drilled thirty holes and broke the piston into pieces. I am now trying to get the rings to let go of piston.











Last edited by Frank the Welder; 10/09/19 9:16 am.
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #786607 10/09/19 12:42 am
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Mohr holes.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

British piston ruins air chisel. News to follow.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

More to come.


Last edited by Frank the Welder; 10/09/19 9:17 am.
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #786608 10/09/19 12:44 am
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Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #787887 10/23/19 12:26 am
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I figured I would need to make a replacement frame so I started a simple "L" shaped fixture. It's made from thick tube 75mm square for a frame and ground plate for the rails.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

I used bolts and dowel pins to align the pieces which seemed to go well. The tubes were straight but I still wish I put the seam on the bottom.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #787969 10/24/19 12:20 am
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Quite a project !, is the frame bent ? It looks like it sort of survived. compared to the rest of it.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
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Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: gavin eisler] #788010 10/24/19 10:28 am
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Yes indeed. The frame has a lot of rust and was still full of water after I dismantled it. The rear springs had reached critical temperature and the bronze oozed out of front assemblies so I don't really trust it to stay together. bending and welding is my vocation so ill also make an engine fixture and may be a handlebar as the shape is very nice. And to be totally truthful I have fallen in love with the big single MX bikes of the early 70's so the plan is to just replace a few things and make it like what you dirt guys rode/ride.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #788012 10/24/19 10:55 am
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With that shop, I think you could just make a billet frame!

If you google motorcycle frame jigs (maybe you already have), you will get lots of ideas, some of which look like what you're building. The other tool that's handy is a draw-thru type tube bender. It uses a hydraulic jack for bending. I made an entire frame using a 1" die with a 4-1/2" radius. I have photos if you're interested, but I'll probably be off-line for the next few days.

Tom

P.S. Where is "Bellows Falls?" Now I just reviewed your photos and saw a row of bicycle frames hanging up, so maybe your frame won't need any bends!

Last edited by koncretekid; 10/24/19 11:00 am.

Life's uncertain - go fast now!
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: koncretekid] #788068 10/24/19 10:40 pm
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by koncretekid
With that shop, I think you could just make a billet frame!

If you google motorcycle frame jigs (maybe you already have), you will get lots of ideas, some of which look like what you're building. The other tool that's handy is a draw-thru type tube bender. It uses a hydraulic jack for bending. I made an entire frame using a 1" die with a 4-1/2" radius. I have photos if you're interested, but I'll probably be off-line for the next few days.

Tom

P.S. Where is "Bellows Falls?" Now I just reviewed your photos and saw a row of bicycle frames hanging up, so maybe your frame won't need any bends!


Good evening Tom, I actually did use google to see what was currently being done in the way of motorcycle fixturing and learned a lot. For example, my "neck" holder can also be used for a guide for a hole saw. I first planned to make a motorcycle frame in 2000 or so but never got around to it though I never stopped thinking about it.

I have an old aircraft mandrel bender with dies for everything between 1/2" and 2" in a couple of radius each with mandrels for the thinner varieties , a JD2 heavy duty bender and a few different press-bend die sets along with the usual ratchet type rigid conduit benders and I would love to see your photos!

Bellows Falls is just off 91 three or four ramps north of the mass border. 05101

While I do have a lot of machine shop stuff but I am a welder/fabricator and most all of the machines are just used for cuts with complicated setups on the bicycle frames I make or repair.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #788240 10/26/19 2:21 pm
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I guess that puts you in Vermont. Sounds like you have the proper bending mandrels, but here is the one I made. I still had to buy the dies, but other than that the rest is home made from plans on the internet.

If you want to see how I built my bike, the entire build diary is here: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?topic=9341.0

The bender is pictured here:[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Tom


Life's uncertain - go fast now!
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #788661 10/30/19 11:20 pm
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Tom, I got several pages into your post in the other forum and pretty much lost all my fear associated with working on these bikes and I hope you take that as a compliment. You have a great way of reasoning through challenges. In July of 2012 (where I am up to) you damaged your cases and sought a repair solution and coincidentally I do a lot of reconstructive welding/machining.

I have been thinking about adapting a B50 cylinder/head on the B44 cases and the fact that depending on conditions I should be able to delete the standard cylinder stud holes, bore case and drill/tap B50 pattern. I am so new at this that I am likely missing something obvious but I am intrigued for sure and wonder if you had any knowledge to share.

Frank

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #788692 10/31/19 10:07 am
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kommando Online Content
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The 66 to 70 cases for both B44 and B25 had the same outer casing dimensions, so its relatively easy to weld up the stud holes in the B25 cases, open out the barrel opening and drill and tap for B44 studs and so get a set of B44 cases. To go from B44 to B50 risks the stud holes being too close to the edge of the castings. The 71 onwards casings are common B25 and B50 size wise, so for a cheap set of B50 cases its better to start with a set of 71 onwards B25 cases so the repositioned B50 stud holes are fully supported by alloy, but then you have to contend with the oversize rear engine mount.

The best route to a bigger B44 is to rebore out to 82mm and keep the B44 head/barrel and studs, any more than 82mm and the barrel gets too thin and distorts and you lose with blowby. EdV is the best person to discuss this with and he has good pistons in that size and good workshop facilties.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: kommando] #788730 10/31/19 9:57 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
The 66 to 70 cases for both B44 and B25 had the same outer casing dimensions, so its relatively easy to weld up the stud holes in the B25 cases, open out the barrel opening and drill and tap for B44 studs and so get a set of B44 cases. To go from B44 to B50 risks the stud holes being too close to the edge of the castings. The 71 onwards casings are common B25 and B50 size wise, so for a cheap set of B50 cases its better to start with a set of 71 onwards B25 cases so the repositioned B50 stud holes are fully supported by alloy, but then you have to contend with the oversize rear engine mount.

The best route to a bigger B44 is to rebore out to 82mm and keep the B44 head/barrel and studs, any more than 82mm and the barrel gets too thin and distorts and you lose with blowby. EdV is the best person to discuss this with and he has good pistons in that size and good workshop facilties.


That is good info! Thank you. My barrel is in pretty bad shape but it may clean up at 82 so that is good news. It sounds like the B44 was the upper limit of what the previous B25 could go to and the B50 was another platform or just bigger where in mattered? I have read the B50 power plant is 80+ lbs. but can't find the B44 engine weight.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #788759 11/01/19 9:57 am
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Just be aware if you need to replace the liner that the OEM liner is cast into the alloy barrel, you cannot press it out, you bore it out and then have a new liner pressed in. You can go alloy on the new liner and then have it nikasil plated, the B44 Grand Prix had a chrome plated bore back in 66 so there is a history of plated bores on B44's.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #788966 11/02/19 11:34 pm
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I paid a visit to Peter at BSA Unit Singles. today (very local to me) and picked up the required puller and Rupert Ratio book. It was great seeing the inventory and getting the short story on some questions I had.

It's taken me quite a while to dismantle. Today for the first time, I had to abandon conventional methods and resort to impact drivers and in the case of the the countershaft nut access cover I used a center drill which allowed surgical removal of the heads of the flathead screws. I can remove the remaining pieces with the TIG torch at a later date.

The lower half of the clutch had been soaking in water for a while so it came out in one piece unlike the chain which came out in four. The clutch hub and front chainwheel came out without issue. Here are a few photos of the process.

Stuff I won't need.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

time to drain fluids. Mostly old water but some oil.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

The reveal.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

You can clearly see what is there now. For whatever reason.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Better but still a mess. Thankfully it's not needed.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Best news so far. I may not look like much but the kick start box was clean and the parts inside nice.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Sort of hard to miss was the right timing compartment. I have no idea what it was filled with, perhaps something associated with mice.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Part way through removal of sprocket access cover.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

Thanks for putting up!

Frank

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789010 11/03/19 10:28 am
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Nice work! When you get to the gearbox, think about dropping the gears in a sonic bath, I did this with some timing gears I bought that were really grotty. Came out like new.


beerchug
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789017 11/03/19 12:29 pm
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Im following this with great anticipation.

It would be pretty amazing to see this total basket case run again! Its way over my skill set and patience.


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1957 B33
1959 lambretta li 150
1960 lambretta li150
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789018 11/03/19 1:01 pm
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I have my own ultrasonic bath, when cleaning rusted parts I add phosphoric acid for badly rusted parts or citric acid for just surface rust so its gets loosened before the ultrasonic then removes it into solution. As Allen says the the end result is usually much better than you would think.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789058 11/03/19 7:27 pm
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Looks like an interesting project and despite the mess caused by the fire, many of the parts will probably clean up well. As suggested an ultrasonic bath is a good idea for for steel parts, for alloy crankcases you might want to consider vapor blasting which will bring them up better than new and close the pores to keep them clean. Here's an image of my B44 timing side case after vapor blasting.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Regarding the conversion of a B44 to 500cc, you can get a bolt on kit see This Link, not exactly cheap but I guess it saves the hassle of having a new liner fitted.

Don't know what the weight of a B44 engine is but I guess its similar to the B50 since they share many of the same components. The only differences I can think of is that the B50 used two bearings on the drive side and a breather vented through the chaincase.

Last edited by gunner; 11/03/19 7:46 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
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Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789096 11/03/19 11:57 pm
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Thanks much for the support and positive imagery. I have access to a friends Vaporblast machine (though I need to compensate at this stage!) and will start shopping for the ultrasonic.

I recently discovered I live near an established BSA parts source here in the states. I sent an email to Peter Quick at BSA unit singles early Saturday morning and within an hour he agreed to meet me at his workshop so I could purchase the needed clutch sleeve extractor. Worth mentioning is the hour he spent showing me his inventory while giving me the benefit of his experience. He sent me home with a B50 frame to measure for suggested modifications.

I spent way too much time trying to remove rusted spindles from rockers. The setup required for heating rockers and box at the same time while pressing was functional and I made a little progress after a couple hours I took a break and bought a complete assembly on fleabay then spent the afternoon scraping sediments off the bench top and wiping down tools in preparation for the next phase which is prying the cam out and freeing the tappets. I plan on using a GP cam and steel pump so I have a little latitude.

I have given up on the big bore and will try to find a stock barrel/ piston combo to get me started.



Between the rusted spindles and normal extraction this is the only setup I could come up to apply heat/pressure where needed with which would take very little pressure even after being stuffed with spacers.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

PS. That blue machine in the background is a Herbert # 3 Capstan lathe a long way from home!

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Frank the Welder] #789142 11/04/19 1:12 pm
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If you have access to an over, pre-heat the over to at least 250 degrees, higher won't hurt it.

Drop the part in cold and leave it a short space of time, with bearings they will drop out in the oven, the shafts might need a tap (unless its the rockers which are holding the shafts in) The aluminium expands at a much faster rate than the steel, and is a better process than the blow torch as your applying as much heat (directly) to the bearing as well.


beerchug
Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Allan Gill] #789190 11/04/19 10:35 pm
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
If you have access to an over, pre-heat the over to at least 250 degrees, higher won't hurt it.

Drop the part in cold and leave it a short space of time, with bearings they will drop out in the oven, the shafts might need a tap (unless its the rockers which are holding the shafts in) The aluminium expands at a much faster rate than the steel, and is a better process than the blow torch as your applying as much heat (directly) to the bearing as well.


Ill give that a try. I have a couple small ovens.

Re: Old Smokey B44 project. [Re: Allan Gill] #789193 11/04/19 10:56 pm
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Frank the Welder Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
If you have access to an over, pre-heat the over to at least 250 degrees, higher won't hurt it.

Drop the part in cold and leave it a short space of time, with bearings they will drop out in the oven, the shafts might need a tap (unless its the rockers which are holding the shafts in) The aluminium expands at a much faster rate than the steel, and is a better process than the blow torch as your applying as much heat (directly) to the bearing as well.


Ill give that a try. I have a couple small ovens.

I made some good progress with cleaning and disassembly. I made the crank pinion tool and it came right off.

The casting around the tappets needed some heat to let go and I also loosened up the clutch linkage while I was there. I am seeing plenty of corrosion but not much wear. Getting down to brass tacks.

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]Untitled by barnstormerbikes, on Flickr

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