BritBike Forum logo
BritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorThe Bonneville ShopBritBike Sponsor
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
ShoutChat Box
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments.
Buy BritBike staff a coffee
Buy BritBike's staff a coffeeStill here since 1996 serving BritBike enthusiasts..
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Member Spotlight
Tiger Dale
Tiger Dale
Waldorf, Maryland
Posts: 305
Joined: December 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
Psychorider, Shedengineering, Shayne Brown, Snow's Cycles, Scottboy
10858 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
franko 169
reverb 62
NickL 49
Popular Topics(Views)
1,004,143 mail-order LSR
a word from..
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics67,695
Posts679,611
Members10,858
Most Online14,755
May 5th, 2019
Who's Online Now
62 registered members (Andrew Dunham), 346 guests, and 899 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Rear wheel binding #786406 10/06/19 11:48 pm
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 329
P
Paul Sammut Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Offline
BritBike Forum member
P
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 329
Should've left well enough alone.......

In trying to be thorough, I decided to check my wheel bearings on my "74 Commando since I'd placed a new top end in the engine and checked everything else. Replaced the drive chain - sprockets are in good shape, so I thought I'd repack the wheel bearings. I removed the bearings of the rear wheel per the procedure in the shop manual and re-greased them. I replaced the bearings, spacer, speedo gearbox etc. as the book instructs, but, every time I tighten the axle, the wheel locks almost solid.
I removed the bearings again and replaced them with new ones as there was the slightest hint of roughness in one and - same result. The speedo 'box appeared to grind into the polished wheel covering so I removed the covering - same result!

The book mentions that the pre-1971 wheel has an inner bearing spacer (062069) that has unequal length smaller diameter (O.D.) ends since that model has a double row bearing on the brake side and single row bearing on the speedometer drive side. Subsequent models (like mine) have two single row bearings in the wheel, but a double row bearing in the brake hub. Rather strangely, the book states (H5, #4): "the bearing spacer has unequal length ends and the long end locates to the single row bearing".
I would've imagined the longer end would be required for the double bearing and the shorter for the single one. Why do I bring it up? Well my bike has the unequal length spacer and I'm assuming it should have a symmetrical one. Regardless, I've put more than 10,000 miles on this bike and the wheel spun freely until I messed with it. I cannot remember which way around the spacer was, but feel fairly certain that I kept it the way it was originally - i.e with the long end toward the speedo drive side - and the wheel still binds.

Does the spacer have nothing to do with my problem? The speedo drive spins freely and, yes, it has the "top hat" (NM.13270). I have looked and re-looked at the exploded diagram a hundred times and have everything in order and in place. Ideas, anyone? All will be gratefully received.

Kind regards,
Paul.


Paul

'74 Commando - Interstate
"74 Commando - Hi-Rider, possibly
'65 Atlas, mostly anyway
'15 R1200 GS Adv
'51 Vincent Rapide
'58 Ariel Square Four
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK
British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786412 10/07/19 12:28 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
R
Rohan Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
This exact same subject has been discussed previously - more than once. !

If your speedo drive grinds into the alloy cover, then obviously it doesn't have sufficient axle spacing on that side.
I recall showing a pic of the spacer protruding under the speedo drive, but can't now readily find where that thread might be.
And I don't quite have access to a back wheel at the moment, so hopefully someone can step in.

Did you have trouble fitting the spacer and axle on the speedo side, or was there lots of room ?
Can you perhaps show a pic of the bit protruding from the lock ring under the speedo drive,
that may give us an inkling of where the problem may be.
I'd say the bearings and spacer will have to come out as a 1st step,
that unequal length spacer is always (?) the culprit.
hopethishelps.

Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786413 10/07/19 12:32 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
R
Rohan Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
Quote from another thread on this subject, although there are no pics or measurements

"The longer end of the spacer goes into and through the single row bearing."
(This solved a wheel binding problem).

It needs to go this way so a lot sticks out under the speedo drive....

Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786423 10/07/19 1:59 am
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 329
P
Paul Sammut Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Offline
BritBike Forum member
P
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 329
Thank you for your responses, Rohan. Re: "The longer end of the spacer goes into and through the single row bearing." - the post '71 bikes have two single row bearings and the spacer protrudes through both.
I wish I knew how to be successful sending pictures - I will have to read up on how to do that - and hope to successfully upload some.


Paul

'74 Commando - Interstate
"74 Commando - Hi-Rider, possibly
'65 Atlas, mostly anyway
'15 R1200 GS Adv
'51 Vincent Rapide
'58 Ariel Square Four
Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786425 10/07/19 2:22 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
R
Rohan Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
Now I am confused !?
I'm sure that bearing spacer has a right way and a wrong way ??

If your speedo drive is grinding on the back wheel cover,
it sure sounds like it doesn't have enough length under it there (?).

It will be days before I can inspect a spare back wheel, so hopefully someone chimes in before then.
If you haven't redone it all by then....

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-drawing/178/rear-wheel-drum-bearings

Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786428 10/07/19 3:33 am
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 329
P
Paul Sammut Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Offline
BritBike Forum member
P
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 329
Glad I’m not the onlyone who’s confused!
Actually, the central spacer I was talking about (# 29 in the drawing you provided, doesn’t really come into play, I don’t think. The one that makes contact with the speedo driver is # 31. Its inner end abuts the inner race of the bearing and should be able to spin with that, I think. If the outer surface pushes up hard to the interior part of the speedo drive it cannot turn freely. So, somehow the speedo drive is being pushed hard against that spacer and, perhaps, also #27.


Paul

'74 Commando - Interstate
"74 Commando - Hi-Rider, possibly
'65 Atlas, mostly anyway
'15 R1200 GS Adv
'51 Vincent Rapide
'58 Ariel Square Four
Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786434 10/07/19 6:37 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
R
Rohan Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
The speedo drive should end up locked solid between the axle bits and spacers,
but the locking collar spins with the wheel hub and drives the speedo drive units' gubbins.
If the speedo drive unit gets pushed into the hub/wheelparts anyplace, then clearly the spacers
aren't correct, and this can lock things up.

I recall on a ride someplace, when we stopped the discussion turned to "that thin black snake
that whipped across the road", and a Commando owner commented glumly that "that was my
speedo cable". Tore half the guts out of his speedo too.
So its good to get it right - and keep it greased.

Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786440 10/07/19 7:58 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,114
L.A.B. Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,114
Originally Posted by Paul Sammut
The book mentions that the pre-1971 wheel has an inner bearing spacer (062069) that has unequal length smaller diameter (O.D.) ends since that model has a double row bearing on the brake side and single row bearing on the speedometer drive side.

I would've imagined the longer end would be required for the double bearing and the shorter for the single one. Why do I bring it up? Well my bike has the unequal length spacer and I'm assuming it should have a symmetrical one.



No. Both pre-71 and 71-on bearing spacers are "unequal length". The pre-71 spacer is 067701 (Orig. No. 18234 according to the parts book, 18231 according to Andover Norton).
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details/17261/rear-wheel-bearing-spacer-nm18231-k12-2-434-

The 71-on 062069 spacer must be fitted with the LONG end on the RH (speedo drive) side.
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details/15748/bearing-spacer-inner






Last edited by L.A.B.; 10/07/19 8:10 am.
Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786474 10/07/19 4:29 pm
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 329
P
Paul Sammut Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Offline
BritBike Forum member
P
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 329
Thanks, L.A.B., I am always grateful for your input.

Re: “No. Both pre-71 and 71-on bearing spacers are "unequal length". The pre-71 spacer is 067701 (Orig. No. 18234 according to the parts book, 18231 according to Andover Norton).”

I wonder why the manual specifies the unequal length in pre-71 wheels if there is no difference in the later ones and why they do not specify which way around it should go in the later bikes. As it is, I assumed it is installed with the longer end on the RH side.

As I look at it more closely, the inner spacer long end protrudes partially into the lumen of spacer NM18234 and the “top hat” from the speedo driver enters that spacer from the other side but does not come up against the inner spacer. From what I can figure out is that either NM18234 must be able to spin freely with the inner race of the bearing or it should not be up against the race. Is that correct?


Paul

'74 Commando - Interstate
"74 Commando - Hi-Rider, possibly
'65 Atlas, mostly anyway
'15 R1200 GS Adv
'51 Vincent Rapide
'58 Ariel Square Four
Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786478 10/07/19 5:37 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,114
L.A.B. Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,114
Originally Posted by Paul Sammut
I wonder why the manual specifies the unequal length in pre-71 wheels if there is no difference in the later ones and why they do not specify which way around it should go in the later bikes. As it is, I assumed it is installed with the longer end on the RH side.



It appears to be something they overlooked or just failed to mention when the 71-on information was added to the manual.


Originally Posted by Paul Sammut
As I look at it more closely, the inner spacer long end protrudes partially into the lumen of spacer NM18234 and the “top hat” from the speedo driver enters that spacer from the other side but does not come up against the inner spacer. From what I can figure out is that either NM18234 must be able to spin freely with the inner race of the bearing or it should not be up against the race. Is that correct?


I'm not sure I follow, as it's the outer bearing races (and hub) that 'rotate'.
The inner races and spacers etc. are static and the assembly is clamped together once the spindle/axle is tightened (including the speedo drive gearbox housing which is clamped between the inner spacer 18234 and the 'top hat').

The alloy of the speedo drive gearbox can become compressed by the inner spacer which can cause the drive gearbox to rub against the hub cover the heat from the friction melts the grease inside the drive gearbox which then gets flung out over the hub cover, therefore, an additional inner shim may be required (or longer inner spacer) to prevent the housing rubbing against the hub cover.



Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786504 10/07/19 9:43 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
R
Rohan Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
You are just going to have to take that spacer out and see which way it is fitted..... ?

Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786506 10/07/19 10:35 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,114
L.A.B. Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,114
It should be possible to tell by removing the wheel (and detaching it from the brake drum).

If the spacer extends beyond the outer face of the bearing inner race on the drum side then it's wrong.

Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786529 10/08/19 1:43 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
R
Rohan Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
So now we wait for Paul to report back on proceedings....

Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786540 10/08/19 3:29 am
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 329
P
Paul Sammut Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Offline
BritBike Forum member
P
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 329
I’ve had the wheel out a dozen times and the inner spacer is fitted the correct way (long end toward the RH/speedo drive side). I went to Baxter Cycle today and looked at a new speedo drive and top hat spacer. There appeared to be two differences from mine - one is that the large outer spacer (NM18234) does not come in contact with the inner surface of the driver (which mine does) and the other is that the top hat spins freely in the driver houser whereas mine was fixed in there and had to be driven out with hammer and drift! I bought the new driver.
Haven’t had time to refit the wheel today, but hope that I have found the answer. The weird thing is that my speedo worked fine right until the time I removed the wheel.
Thanks again, Rohan and L.A.B.


Paul

'74 Commando - Interstate
"74 Commando - Hi-Rider, possibly
'65 Atlas, mostly anyway
'15 R1200 GS Adv
'51 Vincent Rapide
'58 Ariel Square Four
Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786558 10/08/19 10:47 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,114
L.A.B. Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,114
Originally Posted by Paul Sammut
I went to Baxter Cycle today and looked at a new speedo drive and top hat spacer. There appeared to be two differences from mine - one is that the large outer spacer (NM18234) does not come in contact with the inner surface of the driver (which mine does)


I don't follow what you are saying as it's the inner spacer that the speedo drive gearbox locates against on the inside and which holds the drive gearbox clear of the hub so the spacer should come into contact with the inner surface of the drive gearbox housing. If it didn't then the housing would be crushed when the assembly was tightened, unless I've misunderstood what you mean?



Originally Posted by Paul Sammut
and the other is that the top hat spins freely in the driver houser whereas mine was fixed in there and had to be driven out with hammer and drift! I bought the new driver.


That can happen when the alloy of the drive gearbox surrounding the top hat is compressed so the hole becomes 'out of round'.

Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786591 10/08/19 9:09 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
R
Rohan Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,661
Gremlins - it must be gremlins. ?
Not sure if they are out of fashion these days...

Re: Rear wheel binding [Re: Paul Sammut] #786714 10/10/19 4:00 pm
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 329
P
Paul Sammut Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Offline
BritBike Forum member
P
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 329
Not quite sure my descriptions have been good enough - sorry, L.A.B.!
I believe that what went wrong with my old one is that the housing of the speedo somehow became distorted (?heat from friction?) and, since the hub has a tapered profile, the outer lip of the driver “rides” further up the taper on tightening up the axle bolt, jamming it to the wheel. The new one is the correct size and shape and does not jam.
Hope this makes sense.


Paul

'74 Commando - Interstate
"74 Commando - Hi-Rider, possibly
'65 Atlas, mostly anyway
'15 R1200 GS Adv
'51 Vincent Rapide
'58 Ariel Square Four

Moderated by  Dave Comeau 

Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | DVD- Manuals & Parts books
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3