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Sprocket socket #785289 09/24/19 4:28 am
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DavidP Offline OP
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Replacing the gearbox sprocket on a five speed, what a shock it's a bigger nut than my four speed.
Even more of a shock is the tool widely sold to remove this nut. Looks like a large plug spanner with a hole for a bar, and I'm expected to turn a nut torqued to 100 lb-ft with that?
Maybe with a fat dude sitting on the bike holding both brakes with the bike butted up to a wall while I crank on a 4' bar and pray the tool doesn't slip off the nut.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
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Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785296 09/24/19 6:33 am
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Bodie Offline
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Sometimes with these so called "special tools" you have to take a step backwards & realise they're just made to fill a money making space in the market exactly like the crappy chrome parts they sell to jazz up Harley's , Or the cheap & nasty new brake and clutch levers that some dealers sell made in Taiwan , And this tool is one of them .. It'll likely slip or break & end up costing you skin,
Here's a handy gadget I made up out of an old 1/2" drive socket , I can now step up a size and use deeper 3/4" sockets in all the places I need them .. Front brake hub nut , Clutch centre hub nut , Gearbox sprocket nut ,

It's just an old 1/2" drive socket that's been ground down square so as to fit inside the larger 3/4" drive sockets
I'm sure for around the same price as the special tool you could pick up a good used 3/4" drive socket that'll last you for ever ,
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

When they're not in use I just keep them all strung together on a length of wire

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

When it comes to holding the sprocket still to tighten it up - there's no need use both brakes a wall or even a fat dude .
just loop a length of old rear chain around the swinging arm then down and around the sprocket & lock it all off with a pair
of vise-grips … I'm sure you can work out a method that suits you .

Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785316 09/24/19 11:59 am
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Richrd Offline
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A lot of bikes require a 3/4 drive socket to get the depth needed to reach over the main shaft. Pawn shops are your friend, get and adapter to half inch drive from napa and use an impact. Motion pro makes a great tool for holding sprockets.


Rich (last remaining member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

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Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785317 09/24/19 12:53 pm
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KC in S.B. Offline
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I found a very large “sheet metal” socket used for truck axle nuts at auto parts. Fairly cheap and tall enough to clear the shaft.


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
1 '65 XLCH, Hernia Gift, on the way to Japan!
Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785318 09/24/19 12:55 pm
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KC in S.B. Offline
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By the way, I would be a bit cautious with that torque. I have stripped those find thread nuts.


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
1 '65 XLCH, Hernia Gift, on the way to Japan!
Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785321 09/24/19 1:28 pm
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L.A.B. Online Content
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Originally Posted by DavidP
Looks like a large plug spanner with a hole for a bar, and I'm expected to turn a nut torqued to 100 lb-ft with that?


Edit: http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/Repair/Trident/69-73TridentRepair.pdf
"Gearbox sprocket-Lock nut.....58 lb.ft.



Last edited by L.A.B.; 09/24/19 2:40 pm. Reason: Wrong link
Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785343 09/24/19 7:30 pm
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gunner Online Content
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I don't know what size nut you are trying to tighten or undo but what I use is either one of the following:-
- a box spanner which is usually long enough to clear the main-shaft, combined with a Tommy bar of sufficient length to tighten or undo the nut. Make sure the spanner is relatively new as its easy for the metal to distort. Its worth drilling out the hole in the box spanner so that a more substantial tommy bar can be used.
- you can get long reach 1/2, 3/4 and even 1 inch sockets which may fit, check out eBay & Amazon.

Depending on the nut size you may find a metric box spanner/socket is just about the right size and easier to find.

If you go for the box spanner, I wouldn't worry too much about the torque figure, just get it reasonably tight and use some thread locker as well as the tab washer to keep it in place.


1968 A65 Firebird
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Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785360 09/24/19 11:51 pm
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Mark Z Offline
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Personally, I think 100 ft. lbs. on the sprocket nut is crazy. It has a locktab washer, right? I've never put that much on a gearbox sprocket, and I've never had one come loose. Hopefully the PO was of the same mind, and it won't be all that tight.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785367 09/25/19 1:07 am
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David, give me the size of the nut. Across flats, or fractional dimensions if you know them. I have several large sockets I collected before I retired. I'd be glad to bring it along to Barber, if I have the correct size.


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Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785369 09/25/19 1:27 am
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Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785371 09/25/19 1:44 am
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DMadigan Offline
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It is a 1.875" nut. I use a 1" socket, 1/2" drive, welded to the end of a 3/4" drive socket.
If you have the rear chain on you can put a bar through the rear sprocket sitting on top of the swing arm.
With the engine on the bench, take a piece of 3/4" square tube, weld a length of chain across the end with one inside link free. Enough chain to go around the largest sprocket you will use ending in an outside link. The free end is wrapped around the sprocket and a #10 screw is put through the last links to hold it together.
The 4 speed nut is 1-1/2".
You have a '72 which probably has the Hoffman bearing. If you strip the threads you will have to take the cases apart to change to the new high gear with the RJ009 bearing. A lot of work and expense for being over zealous with the torque.

Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785380 09/25/19 3:16 am
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DavidP Offline OP
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Thanks,
I found a 1/2" drive socket on Amazon which should do the trick with my rattle gun.
Don't know about the 100 torque spec. That's what the factory manual says.
I do have an old chain which I can use for tightening.

Of course, I can go no further in refitting the clutch until I replace the sprocket. It's always something.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785408 09/25/19 2:10 pm
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Allan Gill Online Happy
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Why use the Rattle Gun David? Those things should ONLY be used for taking this off! My old Mac Tools air gun set at the lowest limit was most often too tight and past most torque specs, my battery powered version is even more severe (although at max output the air gun is better)

Use a box spanner, screw driver or bar through the middle, nip it up and fold the tab, the spline is doing all the holding work, the nut it just stopping it from walking off the spline, and the tab washer is doing the brunt of the work there.


On a slight twist of note, I have a series of 34-40mm semi deep and full deep impact sockets, cost a bloody fortune but were often required for removing Peugeot lower wishbone ball joints or oil filters on BMW Mini's (obviously you'd never use a impact gun on an oil filter) but the peg hole in the side was ideal. Even used to use a 1/2-3/4 adapter so I could mount a very heavy duty breaker bar when some previous nit had tightened up the wheel nuts with a gun. (In the garages it was frowned upon to use a rattle gun on any wheel nut to either loosen or tighten, least it was where I worked)


beerchug
Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785419 09/25/19 5:07 pm
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DavidP Offline OP
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It's just an electric rattle gun. I only use it to loosen things like clutch and primary-drive nuts, never to tighten.

I understand about the wheel nuts. I still have my 36mm socket from my years driving Volkswagens. At 250 lb-ft it took a breaker bar with a 4' pipe to loosen those. But, the car was on the ground, in gear with the parking brake set.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785428 09/25/19 7:15 pm
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Now your talking ..... VW rear brake hub nut. That rear castle nut was as you say 250 lb-ft then keep tightening until the castle nut lines up with the split pin hole. A 36mm 1/2ins socket, 6ft scaffold tube and my full body weight bouncing on the tube .... just kept bending the 90° extension bar, I still have that bent bar in my tool chest. The only solution was to go to a 3/4ins socket and angle bar.

I have a 3/4 ins socket set now, useful for a number of those large high torque nuts and bolts on bikes and cars.

Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785485 09/26/19 3:39 am
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DavidP Offline OP
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I also remember the "dog bone" wrenches which were sold for the axle nuts. Had a square cutout for the breaker bar, but most folks just beat on it with a big hammer.

I just hate buying tools which will sit in my tool box for a very long time after I use them once. Maybe there's some 1 7/8" nuts on my van. No, darn it, Ford's gone metric.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785495 09/26/19 10:25 am
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Ianbuck Offline
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We've all got those tools, here's one a peg socket for the locking ring on the steerer tube of my Honda Brickbird. The bearings last a good 20k plus miles. So a little used tool.

Attached Files 20190926_102501.jpg
Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #785588 09/27/19 4:23 am
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DavidP Offline OP
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I collected a bunch of such tools over the years, a 6mm 12-point for VW CV joints, a 17mm allen for VW transaxle plugs, and now I have a 1 7/8" socket.
Fortunately most of these rarely used tools can be bought at Harbor Freight for very little money, but not these.
Once you sell the vehicle for which the tool was bought the tool becomes pretty much useless. Guess I'll have to keep my British bikes. laugh


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Sprocket socket [Re: Allan Gill] #786100 10/02/19 9:58 pm
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Arnstein Offline
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[quote=Allan Gill]

"Use a box spanner, screw driver or bar through the middle, nip it up and fold the tab, the spline is doing all the holding work, the nut it just stopping it from walking off the spline, and the tab washer is doing the brunt of the work there".


If this nut is anything but real tight, oil will enter the splines from where the extension of the sprocket butts against the inner ring of the g.box bearing and your motor will leak oil. This oil leak is often believed by some to come from the breather. The splines will of course also have an easier life with the nut real tight.


Arnstein

BSA Spitfire MK3.800cc (also engine 850cc 90degree)
Honda CB450T -71
Laverda RGS 1130cc -85
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Re: Sprocket socket [Re: Arnstein] #786110 10/02/19 11:53 pm
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Originally Posted by Arnstein
[quote=Allan Gill]

"Use a box spanner, screw driver or bar through the middle, nip it up and fold the tab, the spline is doing all the holding work, the nut it just stopping it from walking off the spline, and the tab washer is doing the brunt of the work there".


If this nut is anything but real tight, oil will enter the splines from where the extension of the sprocket butts against the inner ring of the g.box bearing and your motor will leak oil. This oil leak is often believed by some to come from the breather. The splines will of course also have an easier life with the nut real tight.


Ok, but define "real tight". I would say 60 ft. lbs. is pretty darn tight. 100 is overkill, IMO.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #786113 10/03/19 12:47 am
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DMadigan Offline
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"If this nut is anything but real tight, oil will enter the splines from where the extension of the sprocket butts against the inner ring of the g.box bearing and your motor will leak oil." - this is why sealer is used on the bearing end of the sprocket.

Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DMadigan] #786130 10/03/19 6:54 am
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Arnstein Offline
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
"If this nut is anything but real tight, oil will enter the splines from where the extension of the sprocket butts against the inner ring of the g.box bearing and your motor will leak oil." - this is why sealer is used on the bearing end of the sprocket.



The sealer will not seal against the splines. SRM is in fact selling a special nut that has a sealer on the end where it will seal against the bush extension of the mainshaft top gear ( maybe not so good solution because oil will find its way between the nut and the outside end of the sprocket if it turns loose)

50 - 60 lbs would be real tight I guess. As long as the extension of the sprocket stays firmly against the bearing inner ring no oil will leak past and find its way out along the splines. This nut is also holding the mainshaft top gear against the same bearing inside the g.box (which I am sure most of you know) preventing the innerring from turning loose on the shaft.


Arnstein

BSA Spitfire MK3.800cc (also engine 850cc 90degree)
Honda CB450T -71
Laverda RGS 1130cc -85
Ducati 1098 -08
Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #786157 10/03/19 4:21 pm
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kevin roberts Offline
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i slather the parts that leak with 3M yellow gorilla snot. no leaks and shears off easily when you want to remove the nut. ive been doing this with no drips for 40 years.

dont use the black 3M sealer. it sets up too hard.


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Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #786158 10/03/19 4:32 pm
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DMadigan Offline
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No, not against the splines the sprocket end has to be sealed against the high gear shoulder.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
You want to use anerobic sealer so it only hardens at the contact point. Yamabond, silicone or similar will get into the rollers and possibly gum up the works.
You can seal the splines but it makes removing the sprocket difficult. An o-ring inside the washer does not get down into the splines so only seals the top of the splines. You can stuff silicone into the splines under the o-ring as an added seal.
On a four speed the sprocket is against the inner race of the high gear bearing but on a five speed the high gear is the inner race of the bearing.

Re: Sprocket socket [Re: DavidP] #786170 10/03/19 7:51 pm
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Ok. I misunderstood the word "sealer" thinking the outer oil seal. Of course you are right DMadigan. and your advise is really the same as mine I think.. the nut must be tight so the sprocket sits tight against the inner ring of the bearing and with some of your sealer too there surely will not be any oil leaking.

The SRM nut I mentioned has an oil seal on its end.


Arnstein

BSA Spitfire MK3.800cc (also engine 850cc 90degree)
Honda CB450T -71
Laverda RGS 1130cc -85
Ducati 1098 -08
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