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Remove Kickstart Gear from Shaft? #785818 09/29/19 8:13 pm
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DMadigan Offline OP
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Anyone done this? I am making a new shaft to put the XR650 alloy kicker on the A65. A 12T press and heating the gear with a propane torch does not do it. Also, no sign of alignment with the shaft.
Triple kickstart shafts have a keyway and after pressing the gear off the shaft has a copper colour. Possibly sweat braized on?

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Re: Remove Kickstart Gear from Shaft? [Re: DMadigan] #785968 10/01/19 12:02 pm
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I rather thought that the KS shaft on a BSA was a forging and the gear was upset then hobbed


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Remove Kickstart Gear from Shaft? [Re: DMadigan] #785971 10/01/19 1:07 pm
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KC in S.B. Offline
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David,.... Let me know if you want a couple shafts to experiment with....... Or other bits.


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
1 '65 XLCH on the way to Japan!
Re: Remove Kickstart Gear from Shaft? [Re: DMadigan] #786028 10/01/19 10:24 pm
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Mark Parker Online Content
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I've removed one, and brazed it back on to reposition the kick lever for rear set pegs. Definitely the hard way to do it. Easier to weld up the cotter pin cut out in the shaft and file in a new position, not that that helps with what you want to do Dave. I think it was welded on, it was long ago. How's the alloy kick pedal held? A spline? It may be easier to cut the shaft and weld the splined section on?


mark
Re: Remove Kickstart Gear from Shaft? [Re: DMadigan] #786052 10/02/19 1:45 am
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DMadigan Offline OP
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Well, however they put it on it held really well. I turned off the small end, drilled and turned the shaft completely out from the gear and it still withheld the 12 ton press. I just band sawed off the outside section.
The XR kicker has a 19 tooth spline and a bolt holds it on the shaft. I think it sits against a shoulder on the shaft. I am going to put on a spiral ring for the kicker to sit against. Otherwise the outer cover will need more than 0.020" bored for the shaft.
Rethinking doing it again I would cut off the outside shaft shy of the spring retainer washer, drill , press and weld a new end then machine the end of the shaft.

XR650 Kickstart Shaft [Re: DMadigan] #786240 10/05/19 12:40 am
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DMadigan Offline OP
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Just finished cutting the new shaft. I was going to put a spiral ring behind the lever boss as a stop but it really is not necessary. The runout from the cutter works well. I still need to get the shaft heat treated and weld the gear on. The shaft is made from 17-4PH stainless.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Re: XR650 Kickstart Shaft [Re: DMadigan] #786250 10/05/19 1:26 am
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Ignoramus Offline
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So did you ever figure out how the must have fitted them in the factory?

I tried getting one apart years ago when i worked at some dump that had a huge press ......all i did was bend the shaft and got shouted at by the foreman

I know you will have thought it through but how are you going to do the welding with the whole dissimilar metals thing ? ......specially bonding stainless to gear steel? ....interested to hear that....you have more perseverance than me.

nice looking machine work on the shaft


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: XR650 Kickstart Shaft [Re: DMadigan] #786259 10/05/19 2:48 am
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Irish Swede Offline
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Maybe BSA should have made their con rods of the same stuff as the shaft?

Re: XR650 Kickstart Shaft [Re: DMadigan] #786262 10/05/19 4:04 am
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Mark Parker Online Content
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The crankshaft is apparently very tough, according to machinists who have cut them for me. I have had a kick start lever snap though, part way down the shaft.

Why sometimes I have to use 4th or 5th on the start roller when it decides to have lots of compression


mark
Re: Remove Kickstart Gear from Shaft? [Re: DMadigan] #786273 10/05/19 10:06 am
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Sometimes you guys think too hard and complicate stuff wink... This is the XS 650 kicker on my T140D...This is not the first one I have done. The Yamaha kicker needs to have the shaft bore enlarged. to fit the Triumph, I assume BSA is pretty damn similar..lacking the proper boring or drill bit, I used a burr in the drill press to enlarge the hole while holding the part by hand...By using visual clues alone I drilled a hole for the lock pin...Kevin Roberts has seen and rode the bike, the kicker functions perfectly...Dave with with machinist skills could do super precision fit...Oh, those Mk2 carbs have been replaced with far better Mikuni TM flat slides...

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Remove Kickstart Gear from Shaft? [Re: DMadigan] #786277 10/05/19 11:43 am
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gunner Offline
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Nice work Hillbilly Bike, did you need to remove all the splines in the kick-start lever to make it fit? I can see the clamp bolt is still present so I guess you could still use this to help keep the kick-start lever in place.

I guess an alternative might be to have the original kick-start shaft machined to have splines, assuming its thick enough.

Last edited by gunner; 10/05/19 11:22 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Remove Kickstart Gear from Shaft? [Re: gunner] #786284 10/05/19 12:47 pm
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I think Hillbilly's solution is the best one, as machining new splines would require specialist machining, at "specialist" prices.

Re: Remove Kickstart Gear from Shaft? [Re: gunner] #786285 10/05/19 12:50 pm
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Originally Posted by gunner
Nice work Hillbilly Bike, did you need to remove all the splines in the kick-start shaft to make it fit? I can see the clamp bolt is still present so I guess you could still use this to help keep the kick-start in place.

I guess an alternative might be to have the original kick-start shaft machined to have splines, assuming its thick enough.

Yes the splines need to be removed, it's just forged steel and it cuts easily..The Brit kicker shafts are case hardened so cutting splines would be a bit of a job ..The pinch bolt keeps the kicker tight to the shaft, but the it's the cotter lock pin that keeps it from spining just like on the original kick arms..Locating and the drilling the hole for the cotter pin requires a bit of thought.The nut side of the cotter required a bit of welding and grinding on the XS part so the nut makes full contact..I'm, not selling these so a coat silver pain is adequate...To me, a hillbilly with limited tooling, reworking proven stock parts is the easiest path...The rear controls are made from recycled and reworked Honda parts...
D Madigan is probably going to sell these so his will have to be more finely made.....




79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Remove Kickstart Gear from Shaft? [Re: DMadigan] #786293 10/05/19 3:39 pm
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DMadigan Offline OP
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The original shaft is case hardened, once through the case it cuts easily. Probably why Mark's shaft broke with high compression. The only real strength is the outer case shell. I do not know how they put the gear on but the interface shows a copper colour. Friction welded?
17-4PH is very weldable. I have not had problems welding stainless to other steels with the proper rod.
I believe the XS kicker is steel. I wanted something lighter. I have grafted a CR250 alloy kicker to the base of a triple's for the Wenco racer but that requires sourcing two levers, cutting and welding. This is a little simpler, the lever is longer and readily available. The T160 kicker is a disaster. It folds under at the bottom of the stroke and either gets caught under the silencer or hits you in the back of the leg. Besides, it weighs a ton.
The late XS kicker is $64 from Mile's XS. The XR kicker is about $55. Boring, welding, drilling and re-chroming the boss would likely cost more than this route. The other costs for this are $25/ft for the material and heat treatment minimum is $200. Of course, a donor gear is needed.
It is not really "specialist" machining. Shops typically have rotaries.
I might be able to sell one, maybe two if someone is putting rearsets on an A65.

Re: Remove Kickstart Gear from Shaft? [Re: DMadigan] #786301 10/05/19 5:21 pm
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make that 3 , i fancy a lightweight folding kicker, in the UK Terry Weedy does folding steel kickers ,quite a bit heavier than stock.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Remove Kickstart Gear from Shaft? [Re: DMadigan] #786302 10/05/19 5:39 pm
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Hillbilly bike Offline
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[quote=DMadigan]The original shaft is case hardened, once through the case it cuts easily. Probably why Mark's shaft broke with high compression. The only real strength is the outer case shell. I do not know how they put the gear on but the interface shows a copper colour. Friction welded?

Something like that or furnace brazed....I encounter this when modifying parts. Some Brit Bike steering stems are "welded" in this manner to the yoke.If the part can take high heat it will weaken the bond and can be pressed out. Of course if the parts are case hardened it will affect it...If you need just the shaft, cut off as much gear as possible with a cut off tool and then finish it in the lathe....But I think you know this......


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Remove Kickstart Gear from Shaft? [Re: DMadigan] #786318 10/05/19 10:56 pm
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Mark Parker Online Content
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My Kick lever broke not the shaft with the gear, but the chrome vertical section just below the swiveled pedal.


mark

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