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Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784157 09/13/19 2:11 pm
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"The 42mm valve is up by 1.5mm 3.7%" in diameter maybe

When I work out the areas I get 1287.6 mm square for the 40.5 mm valve


1384.7 for the 42
difference 97 mm square and change .

(97 / 1287.6 ) x 100 gives 7.5 % increase in valve area.


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Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784165 09/13/19 3:40 pm
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Gavin, he is talking flow area (circumference * lift) so it is a ratio of diameters (42 / 40.5 - 1.037 or 3.7% increase).

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784168 09/13/19 3:57 pm
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Ah, OK then.


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Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784170 09/13/19 4:03 pm
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The Hemi success in drag racing was in supercharged gas and fuel classes. In N/A gas classes it had no advantage over properly prepped wedge heads..The world's fastest piston engine wheel driven car at Bonneville in unlimited streamliner calss, 462 mph .is powered by a highly modified turbocharged Chevy V-8 2 valve wedge head..Two valves can make power, yes...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784212 09/14/19 12:09 am
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It's a shame i didn't buy the a70 crank i was offered back in the uk years ago but i had embarked on the offset norton route.
Still, i think this motor should be pretty good with an a10 one, if we keep revs under control, i've got a limiter set up for it.

When i referred to the slug, i was talking about an a50 taking on a triumph 500, a very costly exercise in terms of development.
All for a single race........ They had a race winning motor already, they just didn't let the guys who knew about it take it further.
The politics and why's and wherefores of large companies are seldom straightforward but the science of 2 v's 4 v's 6 valve heads etc
is played out today and 4 valve designs are hard to beat as far as efficiency etc are concerned. Like comparing fuel injection with
carburettors, no-one's going to go back to carbs now just like using domed pistons and hemi heads, they've had their day and been
bettered. Chrysler have to use bloody great engines to achieve little gain over comparable 4 valve makers at the cost of fuel, size etc.
They also have a stinking name for reliability, certainly up here.

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784230 09/14/19 2:47 am
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Originally Posted by Mark Parker
I've read that the guys working on the A70 were very excited about the potential, and I guess that's why.

<snip>

It's pretty exciting with new books coming out revealing what was being done. And what potential the A70 represented.

That's quite interesting info, Mark.

What book(s) did you read that in? I'd like to get a copy.

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784240 09/14/19 9:31 am
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Forthcoming books. I received a message on facebook from the author, he said; I write for the motorcycle comics but I'm also putting 2 books together (one on the road bikes one on the racers) on the A65/50. He said he's talked to 80+ factory guys including loads to Peter Brown who did most of the A65 development work. He has all his dyno printouts as well as the original drawings for the Spitfire MKIV head which were much more accurate that earlier versions. He shared some graphs with me.

I am certainly looking forward to these. They sound absolutely fabulous. I think they go broader than just the factory period. And will likely feature stuff about bikes such as Tony Price's A65 750 in the Norton frame that was so dominant in classic racing in the '80s. I don't know how much I should share, but this is relevant to this post and it may help promote the books a little. He said, "A guy here - Tony Price - did a lot of work with oval ports on A65s which might be of interest..." Which really explains a lot.

"When i referred to the slug, I was talking about an A50 taking on a triumph 500" Nick, I knew what you were talking about, but the dyno graph of the short stroke A50 with A65 pistons seems very promising. Over 56hp @ 9,000rpm. But really the A65/A70 or A65 big bore 750 would have been the thing to be developing and promoting, by putting them on pavement tracks like Daytona. They could have easily challenged the triples and given the twins kudos for the prospective buyers of the whole twin range. The A70 is very interesting, it's built as the basis of a real hotrod, I don't know what power they had as sold. But we will probably find out. However in 1970 the lighter twin was being tested equaling the triple's hp. Had they had the oval ports at that stage someone might have said why are we racing this and not that?


mark
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784245 09/14/19 11:25 am
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I'll have to buy those when they come out.

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784251 09/14/19 1:36 pm
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The A50/65/70 engine had the making of a great engine but was let down by some poor design.
The timing side bush was too small, a bigger bush or a ball race would have been an asset to reliable performance
The oil pump was inadequate, the bottom end would have been more reliable if the oil pressure stayed in double figures at idle
The only oil filtration is a sludge trap in the crank which needs a complete engine strip to clean
Gearbox ratios were horrible, it should have been fitted with a 5 speed
A centre crank bearing and balance shaft would have reduced the filling loosening vibration


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784257 09/14/19 2:32 pm
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Streamliner engine, highly modified as in twin turbos with sewer size pipes and heads machined from solid. With 50-60 lbs of boost you do not need four valves to get the air in.
Centre bearing crank with 90 degree throws and roller/ball/needle bearings can be incorporated in the current design with modifications. I made a spur gear drive gerotor pump and five speeds are available. It seems the biggest items left are a cylinder/head with through studs to the case and proper ports.

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: DMadigan] #784259 09/14/19 3:04 pm
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Streamliner engine, highly modified as in twin turbos with sewer size pipes and heads machined from solid. With 50-60 lbs of boost you do not need four valves to get the air in.
.

Modified yes as in 2200 plus HP from 380 cubic inches with 65 pounds of boost at 9000 rpm.He chose a LS Chevy OHV V8... It's not easy to get that power, a lot of tuning and engineering . But there are other engines can can make that power including 4 valve smaller displacement engines..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: DMadigan] #784268 09/14/19 5:06 pm
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Streamliner engine, highly modified as in twin turbos with sewer size pipes and heads machined from solid. With 50-60 lbs of boost you do not need four valves to get the air in.
Centre bearing crank with 90 degree throws and roller/ball/needle bearings can be incorporated in the current design with modifications. I made a spur gear drive gerotor pump and five speeds are available. It seems the biggest items left are a cylinder/head with through studs to the case and proper ports.


The need for through studs would not arise if barrels were cast from aluminium.
Aluminium is strong in tension, in fact it is strong loaded in any direction unlike cast iron which can only be safely loaded in compression


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784291 09/14/19 10:08 pm
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It seems the major factor in performance came from the cylinder head, Peter shared this with me and it highlights what would have been possible had BSA developed the A65 for F750.

"Tony Price was a bit of a phenomena. People would flock to see him at Mallory Park on his Norton framed A65 as he used to go flat out into Garrards. NO ONE does that and in the late ‘80s his lap times would have qualified him for the Transatlantic races in among Schwantz and Merkel. No kidding this guy was seriously fast !! Of interest to you was the fact that he also did oval inlet ports, to get round the breaking through issue." Tony did this with a 4speed.


mark
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: DMadigan] #784307 09/15/19 1:11 am
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Originally Posted by DMadigan

Centre bearing crank with 90 degree throws and roller/ball/needle bearings can be incorporated in the current design with modifications. I made a spur gear drive gerotor pump and five speeds are available. It seems the biggest items left are a cylinder/head with through studs to the case and proper ports.


The oil pump you came up with was great, for a standard bush arrangement motor it was a huge plus but the lack of interest shown was
a shame. With a modified relief valve setup it would be well worth fitting. With an end fed motor the benefit would be less as the oil delivery
required is reduced by at least 40% so the relief capability would need to be significantly larger.
Through bolting is a good strengthening move too, the devimead kits had a much larger base flange arrangement to add strength but bolts
down into the case are better albeit more difficult to do. Centre bearing crank would be better for high rpm use and noting Mark's flow
figures, increased rpm is where the largest power gains are. The cost of this may be a limiting factor though, just manufacturing a crank from
scratch would be around 60-75% the value of a typical road bike a65. Maybe when they have become as rare and sought after as a vinnie, it
may be worth while.

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784328 09/15/19 5:43 am
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Building a centre bearing 90 degree throw crank from scratch is a bit expensive but cheap the way I did it using XS650 crank parts. It would be fairly cheap making the XS crank parts from scratch since only the end webs have a lot of material removed. The inner two are basically round slugs with a few holes in them. Plus it would be easy to change stroke. Rods, pins and bearings are really cheap for CR500s and they are steel with needle bearings that even the stock A65 oil pump could easily supply.
I made knock-off wheel spuds out of 4340 steel to put Halibrand magnesium wheels on a Corvett and the cost was around $200 each so the crank parts would be in the same range.
There is always the gap between what people want and willing to pay for.

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784329 09/15/19 6:13 am
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Sorting out the centre bearing arrangement must be quite difficult but not having seen how you've done it i reserve judgement.
I wouldn't place a lot of faith in the XS650 crank personally as i saw so many xs650 motors go bang with quite horrible results.
If you thought a65's blow up well, you should see one of those go bang, they disintegrate.
I understand that it was one of the areas that yamaha spent a lot of time and money on. Welding the centres etc. certainly on
their race motors. Starting from scratch with the crank may be a better move, but i don't know.
The Cr500 rods, what are their centres? Certainly a good option if they fit the bill and are reasonably priced. One of the big advantages
of needle big ends is their oiling, or little need for it.

You'll have to get that thing running at some stage David, i know you have nothing else to do eh?

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784343 09/15/19 3:49 pm
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I know, too many marshmallows in the fire. I heard most pressed together cranks were welded for racing but I doubt this crank modification would be acceptable in any class. I do not know if any engines had speed limiters back then, I think it was more rider feeling the acceleration drop off and shifting up.
CR500 rods are 144mm which is better than the XS rods at 130mm. Those I would have to take about 19mm off the cylinder to get any compression.
The intermediate plate holds the circlipped ball bearing so no need for crank thrust washers. These are still the XS rods:
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
I sourced a set of 1mm over XS pistons so I can put it together with the stock cylinder and head. I really want to make a new cylinder/head with the various improvements that I talked about and Mark's ideas about porting.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
I found a foundry in LA that will work with me on casting clutch housings for the triples so actually doing this is a possibility. Castings are about $16/lb plus the match plate. I can make the masters.

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Andy Higham] #784454 09/16/19 9:19 am
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Quote
The need for through studs would not arise if barrels were cast from aluminium.
Aluminium is strong in tension, in fact it is strong loaded in any direction unlike cast iron which can only be safely loaded in compression

Yes it is stronger in tension that cast-iron, but cast iron does not creep like aluminium does so through bolts would still be needed or a steel head gasket as done with the all alloy RR V 8's .
Otherwise the head will end up like a crinkle cut chip in very short order.
Plus you will need more bolts

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 09/16/19 9:20 am.

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Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784462 09/16/19 11:48 am
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Built up engines ,separate cylinders and crankcases are not an ideal design, a once piece block and cylinder is stronger...That being said, I believe modern engines still using separate cylinders all use through studs..Of course through studs are only as good as what they are screwed into...Pushrod Tom from this site runs a turbosupercharged 650 BSA in land speed racing..The bike has turned impressive speeds,likely around 100 hp ,wide open for 1-1/2 miles..He has broken engines but I can't say it's from the lack of through bolts.I don't know if he uses aluminum cylinders..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Hillbilly bike] #784463 09/16/19 12:02 pm
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The 3 modern(ish) bikes in my workshop
Aprilia RSV has separate barrels with through studs
Kawasaki ZZR1400 has one piece top crankcase and barrels
GM500 has separate barrel bolted top and bottom


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Andy Higham] #784464 09/16/19 1:02 pm
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Originally Posted by Andy Higham
The 3 modern(ish) bikes in my workshop
Aprilia RSV has separate barrels with through studs
Kawasaki ZZR1400 has one piece top crankcase and barrels
GM500 has separate barrel bolted top and bottom

The GM500 is purpose built "racing" engine?


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784475 09/16/19 2:43 pm
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I think Tom may use alloy cyls.

These are mine. I originally used 8mm stepped studs and bolts and they were good for years until I did the oval ports, then the head gasket would seep oil and studs started pulling out. So I used fully threaded head bolts stepped to 9mm where they screw into the cyl. The rear two I use 10mm with the bolt heads still on. SRM/Devimead kits run imperial stepped studs similar size to 8mm into the block. The reason is because the bolts are very close to the bores and can distort them, why sleeving a std block is unsuccessful. Through bolting eliminates the distortion. I have the studs 35+mm into the cyl. I can see slight distortion right near the top with the 9mm but it doesn't smoke. 9mm is very solid when torqueing, feels quite different to the 8mm.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

I use bearing blue and wet and dry to get an exact match between cyl and head so I get a good gasket seal. I used my worst most ratty cylinder head for the big oval port experiment, I actually lifted the guide about 4mm building up the valve spring seat area. Lots of JBweld in this it's around 200cfm @ .410 valve lift, a bit more at higher lifts that I see no point in using. On a 750 Wallace racings hp calculator for a race engine estimates 103hp somewhere between 10,000-11,500rpm. The 883 is still making power near 8,000 where the graph would start falling I was not game to find out. I can get around 180-190cfm without lifting the guide and without breaking through if I am careful enough. Ben's 750 is around 190cfm with the potential of 90-98hp @ 9,500rpm or so, the difference between a strip/street and race engine. Ben's engine has 10-1 compression the 883 11-1.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

So unless you intend to build an engine to exceed that sort of rpm the stock cyl head casting is more than adequate. I wouldn't want to spin a stock configuration crank that high, the dynamic load on a 90degree is around 45% less, so using my logic, which is often questionable, it's like being 45% stronger than std. An A50 will run over 9,000 so the valve gear is quite capable, and it's easier on everything to use the 473 cam than something more radical. This is our modified cut in half crank. Not that I particularly want to be in a dyno room with Bens 750 over 9,000. His bike is so smooth and sweet, with excellent bottom end and midrange.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Last edited by Mark Parker; 09/16/19 2:47 pm.

mark
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Andy Higham] #784500 09/16/19 7:11 pm
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Originally Posted by Andy Higham
The 3 modern(ish) bikes in my workshop
Aprilia RSV has separate barrels with through studs
Kawasaki ZZR1400 has one piece top crankcase and barrels
GM500 has separate barrel bolted top and bottom


Yes it's a 500cc 4 valve single, just under 90bhp @ 11,500rpm.


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784516 09/16/19 8:55 pm
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So, the cases don't actually end up wider Dave, that's nice, how do you get on welding that plate into
40 year old sand cast alley without it ending up like a banana?

Brian Hart turbo motors were a one piece arrangement done on a 'budget', that man was bloody clever.
I'm talking integral cylinder head etc.

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #784518 09/16/19 10:17 pm
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Not welded. You could not get the crank in if the plate were welded to either side. I machined away enough of the drive case to sandwich it in between the two halves. All the case bolts except the one bridging the tunnel go through it. The plate is bolted around the centre ball bearing then the crank and plate put into the case. Roller bearing on the drive and needle bearing on the timing side.
As Mark found, the studs are too close to the bores to put in 80mm pistons with realistic size studs which is why I want to make a new cylinder/head with 3/8" studs. At the same time run the outer four studs from the case to the head.

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