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Re: Wenco Frame Triple Racer [Re: DMadigan] #782336 08/23/19 2:50 pm
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DMadigan Offline OP
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With all the dirt a chain carries with it a double lip seal is much better.
I have not been able to find a number for the larger I.D. seal. The one that I have has half the numbering rubbed off but looks to be MN23718525. I could not find a match for that number or partial match. The seals in that shaft size are either 1.844" (1-27/32) or 47mm. none are available with the 2.375" housing diameter.
If the seal coming with the sprocket is single lip I will probably order a National 47x60x8 seal which is double lip and make a new housing.
It is not clear why Triumph decided to make the seal surface diameter larger. The diameter of the sprocket that guides against the rollers is the same size (1.624"). However you would think they would have chosen a common seal.

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Re: Wenco Frame Triple Racer [Re: DMadigan] #782494 08/25/19 2:42 am
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Found another problem with the cases. One of the cylinder studs was a little higher than the rest so I was winding it down and decided to back it out and put blue Loctite on the threads.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Looks as though someone had a leak and decided to fix it the usual way, get out the 1/2" breaker bar and tighten it down.
I had to order a 3/8-16 Time-Sert kit as all the local places only carry Heli-coil type "fixes".
So I guess it is on to the head whilst I wait for parts.
I also ordered 47x60x8 double lip seals for the high gear. I expect the seal that British cycle suppliers have are single lip.

Re: Wenco Frame Triple Racer [Re: DMadigan] #782768 08/27/19 4:41 pm
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I left the engine in the stand to mount it on the mill, easier to set the deck square. Fixed the pulled stud with the Time-sert.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
The cylinder flange was prepared with the Loctite. The stippling was from dabbing with my finger tip. Makes it easy to see the coverage. The piston skirts and cam lobes are given a coat of EP Moly grease and the bottom finger depth of the sleeves are coated with oil.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
The crank is rotated until the outer two pistons could be set on aluminum blocks. This keeps them square whilst setting the cylinder over them.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
The cylinder is slid down to the bottom of the wrist pin. Rotating the cylinder slightly around the vertical axis helps.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
At this point the ring compressors can be taken off and one put on the centre piston.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Once the sleeve is down over the centre piston rings the ring band can be taken off. At this point the main case can be given one last cleaning and the cylinder flange sealer can be checked.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
I prefer stainless NAS washers under the cylinder nuts.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
The washers and nuts on before the cylinder is fully seated since the four sleeved studs generally keep the cylinder from dropping right down to the case. Evenly turn the nuts to bring the cylinder down then torque the nuts starting from the centre nuts to the outside.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
On the Wenco frame the engine has to be installed without the head so at this point I am waiting for the gearbox sprocket so I can finish the drive side through the inner primary case.

Re: Wenco Frame Triple Racer [Re: DMadigan] #782919 08/28/19 9:52 pm
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Timing the cams requires a 360 degree wheel if you are not using the wheel markings. The Triumph timing disk only has a +/-60 degree range. Eons ago I printed a 360 disk when dot matrix printers were in vogue and glued it on the back. Now many use an old CD and glue the laser printed scale on that.
The disk has to mount on the crank so a bushing was made. A 1/4" screw with spacer and washer works for the pointer. A steel plate was mounted on top of the pillar bolts for the magnetic dial gauge. TDC of the timing side piston was found by measuring the piston displacement equally on each side of TDC, noting the wheel markings and splitting the difference.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
A long dial gauge reached down to the tappet. If one is not available a short gauge and pushrod can be used.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Cam timing is 50 BTDC/64 ABDC intake, 67 BBDC/47 ATDC exhaust which gives lobe centres of 97 ATDC intake, 80 ABDC exhaust. If the marks are visible on the gears they can be used as a starting point, otherwise it has to be done using the dial gauge and degree wheel.
The crank is set at the lobe centre angle then the cam rotated to its peak. The cam gear is installed enough to engage the key. The engine is rotated backward so the dial drops below about 0.020" then the crank turned forward to that point. The angle is noted on the wheel then the crank is turned forward until the dial drops the same amount on the other side of the peak. If you overshoot you have to back up and try again. You cannot back up to the mark.
From these two measurements you have the lobe centre relative to the crank and can calculate how much to rotate the cam gear. The gear has 50 teeth so each tooth is 360/50 = 7.2 degrees cam, 3.6 degrees crank. The keyways divide this further to 1.2 degrees crank.
Similarly, the exhaust cam is dialed in.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Once the timing is set the cam nuts are torqued. A spare crank gear can be used to lock the gears.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Re: Wenco Frame Triple Racer [Re: DMadigan] #783133 08/31/19 6:55 am
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Made all the pieces to fit the GSXR600 generator. The mount was profiled on the lathe then sectioned on the mill.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Here is the stator mounted:
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
The rotor bore needs to be opened to 0.752" and a new keyway cut for the 5/32" key. A tapered plug holds the rotor against a new spacer.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
An Allen bolt replaces the crank stud. Here is the complete unit installed:
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
As I suspected, the seal supplied with the new sprocket is a single lip. The gearbox sprocket should really have a double lip seal to keep dirt out of the bearing. I made a new seal holder for the 47x60x8mm double lip seal:
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Here it is installed on the case:
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
I used half height Allen screws instead of the original slotted screws.

Re: Wenco Frame Triple Racer [Re: DMadigan] #783218 09/01/19 2:38 pm
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Fitting the cylinder to a 90degree A65 is easily and quickly done on your own with the engine tipped onto it's nose and secured, with the pistons partially in the bores, the cyl on a suitable piece of wood, then it can have the rods lined up, pins and circlips fitted and sealant applied and slid on. The cam followers even stay in place without clips.


mark
Re: Wenco Frame Triple Racer [Re: DMadigan] #783278 09/02/19 3:03 pm
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I removed the seal plug from the stator wires and put heat shrink tube over the end of the sleeve covering the solid/stranded wire connections then heat shrink over that up to the case ferrule. The whole stator/wire assembly had to be rotated to screw the ferrule into the case but this is probably a better seal than the rubber boot over the ferrule.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
After tightening the rotor down I found there was not sufficient clearance between the tips of the stator and the rotor side so I had to make a longer spacer. The problem with that was the crank key was not long enough to engage the rotor keyway so I had to cut a second keyway in the spacer to connect the spacer and rotor.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Found a problem with the Emgo sprocket, it fit on the later 4372 high gear that I used to narrow it on the lathe but not the earlier Hoffman bearing high gear in the gearbox. A small difference in the width of the splines.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
I did not think it was going to take half a day to fix the sprocket splines. I used a dry erase marker to see where the interference was. It was more visible than bluing.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
I used a cotton swab to put a thin smear of moly grease in to lip of the high gear and clutch housing seals so they would not run dry.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
The new starter clutch housing was installed. I have an earlier version of my twin plate clutch with more metal removed around the basket perimeter so I used that with the Barnett carbon friction and steel plates.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Re: Wenco Frame Triple Racer [Re: DMadigan] #783396 09/04/19 1:45 am
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Added the rest of the inner primary bits on so now it can be mounted in the frame.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]

Re: Wenco Frame Triple Racer [Re: DMadigan] #783925 09/10/19 5:59 pm
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I use an engine hoist to put the motor in the frame. Bring it in from the side then add a strap inside the frame rail and remove the outside strap. Continue to the other strap and do the same.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Once the motor is in it can be positioned to fit the motor bolts. I put the bottom bolt in first, then the motor can be rotated to put in the rest.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
I made a mount for the return filter that fits inside the right rear motor plate. Simplest in line with the hose routing from the motor to the rockerbox feed.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
The head uses pillar bolts on all locations. The exhaust pushrod tubes have to be in place before the head is fully set down because the cutout in the cylinder is different between exhaust and intake sides.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
The pushrod tubes are adjusted for 0.020" clearance with only the top square o-ring installed.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Once the pushrod tubes are adjusted the bottom o-rings can be placed over the tappet blocks. I use Loctite 515 on the square top and the two bottom o-rings to help them seat. A dab of grease on the ball end of the pushrods helps keep them in the tappet socket.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
The valve adjusters are backed off and the rockerboxes set down. A magnet on a screw driver is used to pull the pushrods in place under the pin.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
The adjusters are turned down enough to hold the pushrods on the pins as the rockerbox bolts are tightened.
A dental mirror can be used to check the pushrods are in place.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
I tighten the four 5/16" bolts evenly until the rockerbox just contacts the head. The valve screws have to be turned out as the bolts are tightened since they were screwed down previously to hold the pushrods.
I replace the three socket head screws at the lip of the rockerbox with button head screws which have about 75% more area under the head. Sealer is used under the heads of these screws to keep oil from going down the threads.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
With the electric start and no kick lever, the valves have to be adjusted by turning the crank with the sprocket nut or the rear wheel in high gear.

Re: Wenco Frame Triple Racer [Re: DMadigan] #783985 09/11/19 5:11 pm
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Early and late valve covers:
[Linked Image from jubilee-live.flickr.com]
They added the rib at the socket bolts because people were cracking them there. Still happens with the later covers because trying to seal a copper washer, especially a non-anealed one, takes a lot of pressure. People are happy to continue cranking down on things until they stop leaking.
I counterbore the sockets bolts for an o-ring. I also round off the dagger points on the top edge of the cover.
[Linked Image from jubilee-live.flickr.com]

Re: Wenco Frame Triple Racer [Re: DMadigan] #784057 09/12/19 2:30 pm
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I found out in real life 180W Lucas type alternator gives enough juice to forget about any problems with lights, even in my situation with lights on all the time during riding + using blinkers and stop light. Battery is always charged full and I'm happy.
Could be another story with electric starter and bigger battery. Anyway my red warning light ( aftermarket ) goes off a tad above 1000 rpm idle. I also have some questions:
- how did you finished your cylinder deck under head gasket, flat or with cylinder sleeves protruding ?
- what cylinder gasket did you use?
- did you dowelled your rocker boxes in this engine?
- did you use any rocker box gaskets?
Thank you.

Re: Wenco Frame Triple Racer [Re: DMadigan] #784167 09/13/19 3:54 pm
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Yes, a 180W Lucas generator would supply plenty of power however, this originally had a 120W single phase. A new GSXR costs $25 and a used rotor was around $50 on eBay. Far cheaper than a Lucas. It would need a three phase regulator in either case and these can also be picked up cheap.
I did not have to finish the cylinder/head joint but the liners are slightly high of the cylinder by around 0.002"
Cylinder gasket - base none, head copper. The head gasket is the only one in the engine.
I previously tubular doweled the outer two 5/16" bolts on the rockerboxes. This is an HDA head. An AM head has less material around these bolts and the outer two 1/4" screws are usually used on those.
No rockerbox gaskets. I set up the valve geometry by adjusting the valve stem or pushrod length. Adding a metal gasket just gives another possible leak point.

Re: Wenco Frame Triple Racer [Re: DMadigan] #784547 13 hours ago
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Found the gearbox was locked up. Shifted fine before the outer cover was on. Taking it off I saw the problem, the camplate plunger housing was bound against the camplate. Somehow I picked up the wrong plunger body which has a longer end beyond the threads.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
The one on the left looks like the T4400 in the '73 T150 parts book. The right looks like the one in the '73 T140 parts book which has the same number. The gearbox parts are from the '72 A75 five speed but with the Triumph inner/outer gearbox cases. Decided to use the roller plunger that I made.
That solved, on to wiring. I found a cheap source for battery cables is the jumper cables from China(harbor)Freight. Twelve feet of 8ga. wire for $12. Crimped on copper lugs for the battery and starter.
[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Added heat shrink over the crimp end to avoid shorts. Wires go from the battery in the tail cone to the starter and solenoid.
Less of a deal was the starter relay from NAPA. I needed one with a mounting tab and five terminals so I could turn off the lights when starting. Found one in the book (web site was fairly useless as all relays are listed under starter relays until you select one and then it gives the usage) with terminals numbered, looks and priced like a Bosch but made in China. No time to shop around.

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