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T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise #780894 08/08/19 7:41 am
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Hi Guys, This is for a 1973 T120/140 (not really sure) it has a duplex primary chain and a 3 spring clutch.
I have rebuilt this bike over the last year, and when I came to start it I discovered a whirring rubbing noise coming from the left hand side - only when a gear is engaged and I am moving forward, when the bike is just running everything sounds fine!

I suspected something in the primary chain case, so removed the cover and immediately noticed that the chain, had previously (could be an older chain) rubbed on both the adjuster "nut" and the front stator studs, however the chain was not loose enough for this to have happened recently.

Anyway I have changed the rotor as it was moving slightly on its centre, I have changed the adjuster rod and trunion as the threads on the adjuster rod were damaged. I also dismantled the clutch and found that the rollers were not within spec, the diameter was less than 6.3mms - this is funny because I purchased new ones from F*ked in the UK, and they were also slightly smaller than the minimum spec. but larger than the ones in the machine (could this cause a noise?), so the larger ones went in. I changed the thrust washer at the same time as this was marked. The chain itself measured up ok, however the adjuster is significantly bowed, so I may change the chain although not sure.

I thought I had made significant progress when I discovered only a dribble of oil in the gearbox, so I topped that up with 500cc of fresh gear oil, but all to no avail - still makes a row!

I have run the bike without the cover on it to see if anything was obviously rubbing but this machine is only fitted with a side stand, so I couldn't put it in gear (how do you support the rear wheel with no centre stand?)

Any wisdom on how to advance with this as it's blowing my mind!

Dave

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Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #780901 08/08/19 10:15 am
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OK I removed the primary cover again and jacked up the bike to run it in gear on the jack. I took a video - it would seem to me that the noise is coming from the gearbox..... what do you think?
https://youtu.be/MQf829H7WsA

Thanks,

DaveG

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #780908 08/08/19 11:36 am
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'This video is unavailable' is all I get.

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #780919 08/08/19 2:01 pm
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You may get a better idea of where the noise is coming from by using a long handled screw driver, touching the tip to various parts of the engine and putting the handle against your ear (like a stethoscope).

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: kommando] #780925 08/08/19 4:39 pm
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Sorry I hadn't clicked on Publish in youtube

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #780934 08/08/19 6:10 pm
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Hi Dave, If the noise goes away when pulling in clutch at stand still, Often the noise is in gear box. When moving & pulling in clutch noise is unchanged leads to gear box.

Riding bike at about 40 mph if shifting into top gear (do you have 4 or 5 speed?) if the noise is changed that also leads to gear box.

Low oil in gear box depending on how low can cause damage rather quickly. Only a few miles.

With rear wheel off ground motor off, turning rear wheel in neutral, you might be able to hear a bad high gear bearing. but the sprocket/chain noise may mask it. With clutch & rear chain removed, reaching in through access door, spin rear sprocket. It should feel very smooth. If it feels rough or gravely that is a bad bearing. Must be in neutral.

Spinning main shaft by hand in neutral should feel very smooth also.

Making it a little harder to diagnose the high gear (this is the one the rear sprocket is attached to) is geared directly to the lay shaft. So when high gear is turning, lay is turning. Lay shaft is supported by needle bearings both ends. They can fail & make noise also...

The lay shaft being geared to the high gear is transmitting power in all gears except high gear. So those 2 gears take a lot of wear & can get noisy which can also sound like a whine or whirring noise to my ears.

It takes some practice, but you can get some clues about what might by noisy by listening in different gears. That will get too complicated for now. It depends if you have 4 or 5 speed on this diagnosis also.

Take some road tests & listen to the noise change in each gear. Take a note pad & record your findings.

If tear down is needed which I expect it will be, you can very easily feel a bearing that is noisy like noise you may be hearing. It will feel rough. Visually looking between the balls at race surfaces you'll see roughness & pits. The needle bearings are harder to check. You can't see outer race surface. The rollers can flatten or pit, but damage may be on other side of roller, not visible. The lay shaft is the inner race for needle bearings, inspect it for pits & visible roughness & flat spots. I would recommend all new bearings. Pay close attention to depth of needle bearings, it is important they stick out the right amount.

A new bearing looking between balls you'll see a ground surface & bearing is perfectly smooth turning. A good used bearing that ground surface will now look like a light gray smooth surface. You can see it's worn smooth, no longer seeing the grinding, but there is no visible grooves or pits. It still turns perfectly smoothly. That bearing is unlikely to be noisy. But I change them all during overhaul.

Gear tooth wear can be obvious like pits or a step worn in tooth. However often the tooth can be worn, but wear is not so visible. The top of tooth can be worn narrower is a clue. Back lash cannot be checked.

A few years ago I went through 4 speed. Very noisy in 2nd gear. Noisy in some what in 1&3 also. Fairly quiet in top gear. Tear down showed pitted outer race on main shaft bearing in outer cover. Other bearings not bad. High gear bearing turned smoothly. bushing in high gear was good. High gear, lay shaft high gear has minor tooth wear. 2nd gear had bad tooth wear, but not to the point of nearing fracture. So what was really the root cause of noise? The bearing. But... how noisy will 2nd gear be with new bearing? Owner was debating about installing 5 speed trans. So was decided to replace all 4 bearings & not do 2nd gear. Better used gears not available at the time. Road test after showed the horrible grinding noise in 2nd gone. 1&3 very acceptable noise. 2nd gear still sounds like a bad bearing.... Point is it can be very hard to determine exactly what a used gear or worn gear will should like until the known bad bearings are replaced.

The good news is you can replace all the bearings & gears without taking motor out of frame or taking the entire motor apart. All trans parts for 4 or 5 speeds can be had new.

4 speed is a little better for replacing high gear bearing as it's a separate bearing. 5 speed the inner race is ground directly on the 5th gear, so a new 5th gear is needed along with outer bearing race.

On an aside, before spending too much $ on a 4 speed, brand new 5 speed trans kits are sold. Includes almost all what you need. Rear sprocket not included. I recommend 20t for you bike. About the same price as a 4 speed. 5 speeds change the way bike rides. Lower 1st & 2nd, but 3rd is the real gem. Perfect for twisty canon riding. I feel well worth the $.

I'm in USA. I've had a really hard time finding good trans parts used. They can be found, but not easy.

I feel your next step is some diagnostic road tests to get a clue of what you're looking for. Pay very close attention to what changes the noise. Especially how it changes or not in each gear. I doubt this noise is in primary drive.

You need to determine what motor you have. What is engine # ? That is a key factor if it's not been ground off & changed. T120 could come with 4 or 5 speed. I feel '73 T120 is a very desirable bike.

T140 always has 3 row chain, 5 speed, 7 fin cyl & 10 head bolts.

If tear down shows bad bearings & the needle bearings need replacing, you'll need a special tool to install new needle bearings. You'll need to heat the cases to remove the ball bearings in both engine case & inner cover. Use heat gun or propane torch. Heat until spit boils easily. Do not drive oil bearings out cold.

This job will be a lot of work, but can be done successfully if you take your time & get a special tool for the roller bearings.

Looking forward to seeing the results of your road test.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: TR7RVMan] #780944 08/08/19 8:21 pm
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Hi Don, Thanks for the response. I will try testing different gears and see what i can notice. When I was out testing earlier I didn't notice any difference to the noise when changing up or down, but will do some note taking tomorrow.

Thanks,

Dave

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #780945 08/08/19 8:32 pm
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Your chain tensioner is about as far up as it can go by the look of it, so the chain looks due for replacement. I couldn't hear a "whirring" noise, but I could hear some clatter.

The clutch rollers don;t move unless you pull the clutch lever in - the rest of the time they are fixed in relation to the rest of the clutch. But if Feked (no need to asterisk a letter - nobody's going to sue you and it's good for everyone on here to know which retailers are supplying sub-standard parts) have supplied you with sub-standard parts, they should refund you including postage.

Better to buy from reputable retailers such as TMS or LP Williams -you now you'll be getting proper stuff then (well, you'll have a much better chance of it).


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Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #780987 08/09/19 5:10 am
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Hi Dave, All my primary & clutch parts are shipped. I hope to have running by next Thursday. I'll compare new Renold chain to the original (Renold also) to see how much difference. I'll also measure tensioner blade position compared to old parts. I'm replacing tensioner & all related tensioner parts also as they are worn/damaged. Again I verified tension was correct & I could see no rub marks on stator studs or alternator wire tube.

I can't wait to see if it corrects noise. Not hopeful... But I'll be happy if it does. I still can't determine cause if it fixes it.
Don


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Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #781002 08/09/19 10:48 am
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I have had the chain off and measured it as described in the manual, with 84 links the chain looks good, although I agree the tensioner looks well arched. When I ran it as above, there is no sign of the chain being loose or rubbing anywhere near anything. I think the marks I saw were from an old incident I believe....

Going to pull the gearbox and check the bearings.....

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #781061 08/10/19 12:57 am
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it sounds like something rattling off the back of the clutch seal plate, maybe a loose final drive sprocket nut . probably totally wrong. Noises are hard to diagnose .

Last edited by gavin eisler; 08/10/19 12:57 am.

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Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: gavin eisler] #781272 08/12/19 11:48 am
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Interesting, not got that far in yet, but will certainly bare that one in mind - Thks Gavin.

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #781375 08/13/19 1:37 pm
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Ok I got "that far in" today, the chain sprocket was not tight I could move it slightly with my fingers, however the lock washer was doing it's job holding it in place - could this cause a noise?? (Gavin?)

Everything I took out today seems "OK" the clutch plates are pretty worn and some wear on the tabs etc... however the clutch was working well - could this cause a noise?

The noise only happens when the bike is moving ie. the clutch is out and I am in gear. I messed with the gear lever and turning the output shaft by hand and I didn't perceive any kind of untoward movement, it does move in and out a little and of course round and round with no issues, I am no expert but the gears engaged well and I could not detect any kind of rubbing etc... So much so I am asking myself questions about going to the shag and hassle of removing the gearbox.

The chain sprocket was definitely well worn so I will be changing the chain set if nothing else.

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #781389 08/13/19 4:26 pm
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There are 3 chain sprockets in the area you have a concern with, engine sprocket, clutch chainwheel and the gearbox output sprocket. You refer to chain sprocket twice, but which of the 3 is it ?

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #781440 08/14/19 7:35 am
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Gearbox output sprocket

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #782440 08/24/19 11:45 am
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Just an update, I removed the gearbox to check out the bearings, the only one showing some anomalies is the RHS main Shaft bearing, so I will be changing that, plus the gearbox output sprocket and the primary chain, if the noise persists, the clutch will get changed as some of the tabs are a little damaged.

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #782509 08/25/19 5:59 am
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Hi Dave, I couldn't determine cause of my noise. I hate doing this, but as I said I replaced everything. Chain, tensioner, adjuster rod etc. & all clutch parts. Noise is gone. I still couldn't determine what fixed it.

From what you say, after trans removal, you could have 2 causes. For sure the right end main shaft ball bearing if worn, rusted or something wrong will cause your noise.
Also... when the sprocket on a 5 speed is loose, that's really bad because the inner face of sprocket snout is the side race for the roller bearing. I've not personally seen
5 speed sprocket loose so I don't know if that would be noise or not, but it's hard on bearing & high gear race.

I've seen several loose nuts on 4 speeds & there was no obvious noise I could hear. The lock tab was still holding nut.

Back to the 5 speed I recommend using blue Loctite 242 or 243 on nut & a good crimp on the locking tab.

Triumph did not give spec on sprocket nut for the twins. At least I couldn't find it. However, 1975 Trident manual shows 58# torque for gear box sprocket nut. It is same sprocket & nut on Trident. Some say 70# is better. I've used both to good results on twins. I recommend getting a deep socket so you can use torque wrench.

Too loose nut works loose, too tight & you can crush the thin shoulder that is bearing side race. I won't guess on 5 speed nuts. Use torque wrench.

It is imperative to use Loctite on the main shaft nut on right end. Red 271 is not a bad plan. Blue 243 is just ok. Look close at tab of lock tab. Make sure it fully engages in spline. Bend as needed to make sure it will not slip on spline. Fold it over nut well & I like to use both tabs. This nut likes to work loose. I've seen many loose. Sometimes lock tabs don't hold properly, or wear off, & nut backs off. Fairly common complaint on this forum. Don't let this happen to you. I use 271 here. Use torque wrench for certain.

Use heat gun on nut when using 271 to remove. Works very well. Heat gun works good for 242 or 243 also, but blue doesn't really need heat.

Don


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Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #782660 08/26/19 12:55 pm
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Thanks Donc, mine is a 4 speed box I am waiting for a new bearing and gearbox output sprocket and I am changing the primary chain for good measure, will update as I fit the parts.

Anything I should know when refitting gearbox apart from what you said Don?

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #782967 08/29/19 6:32 am
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Hi Dave, I have a few suggestions. First heat the case until spit boils then a little hotter before driving the bearings out & back in. Doing it cold can enlarge case bores resulting in loose bearings.

Get some Loctite 518 (eBay, as hard to find locally) to use on the inner & outer covers. I don't think your year uses gaskets. If no gaskets, don't use them as it effects primary chain line, main shaft alignment & gives too much end play to lay shaft. Clean & dry surfaces. Paint 518 on one side only with an acid brush or the like. Brush strokes going long ways of joint, not cross the short way. Trust me... It will not leak, yet will not fight you coming apart even years later. Was developed for aircraft motors that must not leak, but need periodic teardown for inspections. 518 is good for timing covers & case halves also. Any place no gasket is used. Not recommended for use on gaskets. Check expiration date on tube.

Look at the bolt holes that hold inner cover on. A few will go to outside of motor, which an allow oil leaks by the threads. Put 518 on these threads.

A chain whip tool can be used to hold trans sprocket during torqueing of nut which simplifies nut torque. I've used mine many times with motor installed. On bench too.

The left lay shaft roller bearing is pressed into case. Sometimes it leaks around the outside of it. I clean well & smear silicon sealant over bearing to stop leaks. Same thing at a welch plug at rear of trans. Factory sometimes put an epoxy like material over these. That could be used also.

There are a few methods of installing the shafts & gears. None better than the other, personal preference. However, you should practice dry assembly at least 4-5 times before using sealant & final assembly. It is very easy to not index shifter quadrant gear correctly. They you'll not have all the gears, depending on how much you missed the mark. Visually you can tell if you good or bad, by moving quadrant with large pliers & a large screw driver. Trust me on this. Practice until you understand what you're doing. Identify & mark your shift forks. Easy to mix them up. They will not go wrong, but it wastes a lot of time. Basically the trans cannot go together wrong. The parts won't fit. However, the lay shaft thrust washers can be displaced off the peg. Grease back side well to stick it on. The inner cover should go on without forcing it. The only friction should be the dowel pins. If you have to draw a gap together with bolts, that's wrong!

The gears will not line up & will jam at times until main shaft kick start gears & nut are installed. Otherwise make sure main shaft is pulled to right against bearing when you spin the shaft. The nut can be just snug for trial assembly shifting tests. DO NOT put on outer cover until you verify you get all 4 gears moving quadrant with pliers & a large screw driver. Hermit did a really nice web site for the trans. Study it.

Does your trans have plunger to index shift cam, or leaf spring?

If you have leaf spring, that is probably much harder to get correct gear indexing as the leaf spring rotates the cam during install of inner cover. I would advise much more practice if you have leaf spring.

From what you say, you have a '73 T120R. Basically the latest version 1972 T120R with drum front brake? Is that what you have? Or do you have disc brake & body work of T140? I really don't know all the different models. All T140 type motors in 1973 & later had plunger indexing, but I don't know about '73 T120.
Don


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Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #783765 09/08/19 11:53 am
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Hi Don,
Thanks for your post, I finally managed to get the gearbox back together although have yet to check I have the gears! I will certainly test that tomorrow, I used the procedure as described in the workshop manual leaving out the fork shaft until the forks are in place and then threading the shaft through to the hole in the crankcase. What do you mean by plunger or leaf spring ? The only spring I see is connected to the kickstart mechanism. The gear change mechanism is a castellated arm operated by the gear leaver which operates a cog behind the fork pathway thingy. The bike has a disk at the front and no engine number (just a Triumph etching where the engine number should be), I think it is a T120 with a later front end as you describe.

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #783769 09/08/19 1:45 pm
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Quote
What do you mean by plunger or leaf spring ?


The circular metal plate the gear forks mesh into has a series of notches on the outside, in the bottom of the gearbox they should be a spring operated plunger or a leaf spring that engages the notches, the notches are each gear position and a neutral (plus a few more neutrals depending on year of manufacture).

[Linked Image from cdn.shopify.com]

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #784456 09/16/19 10:10 am
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Thanks Kommando, yes it has a leaf spring. I changed the main Shaft RHS bearing the gearbox output sprocket and the primary chain, got it all back together and I am now missing some gears so it's got to come apart again.... I wonder if I can leave the gearbox output sprocket and chain in place? Such a pain to get the chain looped through , oh and the kickstart doesn't return properly....

Second time will hopefully be better!

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #784490 09/16/19 5:55 pm
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I do not think the the problem is in the gear box; in the video the noise is like a cluttering noise that could be between the clutch drum worn out (splines) to the basket.
-For the kickstart spring; you need to put another round there and then engage it good to the pin. All with the kicker to the other side.
-Missing gears due to different measurements now; possibly you need shims between some gears.
May be the gaskets are not the same thickness.
Gearsboxes are never the problem regarding those noises man. Mechanical noises are in the primary; knock noises etc are in the engine. Triumph boxes are very good and if you hear a harsh sound of the box, you would heard it from the RH side.
Low oil quantity is not a problem if you rides normally in top gear; the box would not seize.
Bearing noise is characteristic.

Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #784517 09/16/19 9:28 pm
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You need a length of old chain to make re-fitting your chain nice & easy. Mind you, having started on this explanation I see it's a waste of time - if you're removing the gearbox sprocket, there's no problem getting the chain back on - just do it before you fit the cover plate.


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Re: T140 Left Hand side engine (?) noise [Re: DaveG] #784571 09/17/19 11:31 am
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interesting comments thx. will certainly give the kickstart spring another lap! I did manage to leave the high speed gearbox cog in place so I didn't have to disturb that secondary chain, even with the cover plate off it was a pain to do! I think this made fitting the layshaft more difficult though as you have to turn the layshaft cogs to ensure they mesh with the high speed cog. I think I have got 4 gears now so am contemplating shutting it up, although will give it anothergo this pm as without oil it still seems to not change smoothly and I have found a few neutrals where I wasn't expecting them.

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