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Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #781023 08/09/19 4:29 pm
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When I worked at the Birmingham Longbridge factory I controlled the building of the 'Show Cars', about 100 cars a year built for Car Shows. The car was sent down the production line but with a huge list of parts that were not to be fitted and one of the show build workers to keep an eye on it. It came off the line as a skeleton body with engine and a gash front seat and virtually nothing else. It went off down to the show build area and 3 months later emerged as a pristine car. What was also an issue was as the show cars were built so far in advance they were likely to be the next model, so not all the new parts were available as they went down the line. So the show area was a hive of activity, making sure all the parts fitted were the best, any new parts not obtainable were made from the previous version or mock ups made by the supplier.

I would image the Gold Star shop was similar with a basic bike being sent in and then the specific parts and modifications undertaken over days and weeks rather than the normal hours. With the volumes being so much lower there would be regular parts shortages, partly from suppliers but also the rest of the works 'forgetting' to do the 20 Gold Star cases needed that week over the 500 normal ones.

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Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #781197 08/11/19 5:51 pm
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I thought I'd post this to throw a wrench into the works. So digging through the old single cases I found this.


[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

This timing side is married to an earlier XB33 drive side so was replaced at some time. It has the thicker full size base and shape that was used for the alloy barrel but as you can see it's for the later alternator motor that was an iron engine.

Maybe it's the old "using up the parts available" explanation.

Bill B...


Boomer
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: Boomer] #781208 08/11/19 9:02 pm
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Hi Bill,
That timing side case is from a GB 31/33
These have an alternator and a "distributer" bolts onto the inside of the timing case
the mag platform is then not finished machined

John

Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: Magnetoman] #781311 08/12/19 8:40 pm
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Mal Marsden
The thickness varies where the smaller bolts hold the cases,
The plot thickens. Please clarify if it is the shorter flange, in the center of the photograph, that you're referring to.

[Linked Image]

In any case, I found the following dimensions of it on the five sets of cases that were relatively easy to get at:

engine _ part no. _ dimension
ZM20 _ 66-1611 _ 1.222"
XB32 _ 66-1630 _ 1.230"
ZB31 _ 66-1641 _ 1.215"
ZB34 _ 16-1641 _ 1.320"
BB31 _ 66-1641 _ 1.222"

Three of these are still bolted together so the portion of the flange exposed on those could be slightly rounded off and give a slightly too low reading. Given this, three of the four have essentially the same dimension. However, despite having the same part number stamped as two of the others, there's no question that the dimension of the ZB34 is larger. However, since this flange only helps hold the cases together and doesn't have to fit engine mounting plates it is "non-critical" so they wouldn't have had to take great care machining the faces to a strict dimension.

Since Bill already made me get one of these cases down from the top shelf once, I'm not putting anything back until this thread has run its course.


Sorry, been away hence no reply. But yes, the thin section either side of the bolt holes varies noticeably from one model to another. I agree it’s nothing to do with holding the the bolt sections but a greater thickness will undoubtedly increase strength and rigidity of the cases. Also note the thickness will only depend on the design of the mould tool since the only bit machined here is the centre line and to make this any different will require changes to the crankshaft.


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Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: Magnetoman] #781661 08/16/19 5:53 pm
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Gordo in Comox
It is hard to really know when the ZB34GS came online.... John Gardner in his book 'BSA Gold Star Super Profile' states that the ZB34GS came out in 1950,
A one-page price list from Rich Child, Bulletin #75 dated February 1st, 1949, shows eight models of BSA including 'BSA Gold Star 30.50' for $764 dealer cost. However, Bulletin #55 dated October 15th, 1948 shows only five models of BSA, none a Gold Star of either size. Since Child handled the entire country at that time, those two prices lists narrow down the arrival date[*] of the 500cc Gold Star in the U.S. to a window of 3-1/2 months during model year 1949.

[*]Table 2 of The Gold Star Buyer's Companion shows the despatch date of the first ZB34 was April 5, 1949 so Child was taking orders two months before they were actually available. But, no matter what, they were available in model year 1949, just over 13 months after the ZB32 (first one despatched February 21, 1948). It's interesting that Child apparently didn't see enough sales potential in a little, but expensive, 350cc machine to merit importing them.


Today at the IR Bsa rally 2019 in Morreton-in-march in the UK, i had access to the Bsa factory dispatch records.
Clearly it can be seen that several ZB34GS motorcycles were allready dispatched in ‘48 (which is rather logical for modelyear '49, a production started "always" in October the year before the actual model year, maybe GS was different but it seems for modelyear '49 not far out of normal practice...)

This is the list of some of the ZB34GS engines, this actual page starts with ZB34.GS.142
Then 143, 144, and on and on.

See picture:
[Linked Image from download.motolab.nl]



As i own an earlyer engine. I did take the picture of the sheet were my engine is on.
As these records are telling, it went to australia in december ‘48, or was supposed to go there at least.. "Strangely", the goldstar owners club (Ian) says it was dispatched in may ‘49 to the US (and i bought it also from the US)
it seems to be common practice in those day's, to mention the planned despatch, but not if the initial planning was changed.

that that was changed reguraly , seems logical if you see all the date's in this records, keeping in mind that there was not going out a ship each week to (both) the US and Australia, (keeping the distance and volume in mind) i presume


it could very well be, that a second record was there with the adapted data or that (Ian Jackson) has some (US) specific records



i did also checked some other BSA's of mine (non GS) who seems to be all correct

Last edited by Motolab; 08/20/19 11:47 am. Reason: Added info & image upload

Harold
BSA: M20 ‘40 M21,B31 ‘55 B33 ‘54, ZB34GS ‘49
Triumph 5T ‘49 + T100 speedkit
Sunbeam S7 ,48
Moto Guzzi LeMans ‘79
BMW R51/3 ‘ 51, R100GS ‘89
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: Motolab] #781674 08/16/19 9:47 pm
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I've got ZB34GS.138. Are there any earlier ones out there?


Coming to terms with your delusions, is the first step to sanity
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: BritTwit] #781695 08/17/19 3:18 am
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Originally Posted by BritTwit
I've got ZB34GS.138. Are there any earlier ones out there?


You know there are Dan.


Bill B...


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Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: BritTwit] #781765 08/17/19 6:59 pm
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If your ZB engine is apart check the date code inside the timing cover.


1951 ZB GS
1953 BB GS
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1954 Vincent BS
1963 RGS
1956 Triumph T110

Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: bsalloyd] #781772 08/17/19 8:14 pm
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@bsalloyd

You are talking too?


Harold
BSA: M20 ‘40 M21,B31 ‘55 B33 ‘54, ZB34GS ‘49
Triumph 5T ‘49 + T100 speedkit
Sunbeam S7 ,48
Moto Guzzi LeMans ‘79
BMW R51/3 ‘ 51, R100GS ‘89
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #783132 08/31/19 6:55 am
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I have to say there is a lot of information in a thread that I was hoping one or 2 people might reply to. And it has been a great pleasure to interact with y'all, but am I still allowed here seeing as how I'm not a Goldstar owner? Cant seem to find a B34 comp forum?

Does anyone have access to the dispatch records? It would be great to have a bit more information on this one. Here's a good reason why... I'm a Dutch Aussie ex-pat living in Hawaii. A few months ago I stumbled across a ZM21 which I bought on the spot. Not many Brit bikes on my island. I figured it would be a quicker than my WM20. Turns out, the ZM21 was dispatched to South Australia from the factory and by some bizarre means ended up here. It was manufactured less than 100 miles from where I was born, and we both ended up in Australia, and after a while we both ended up here. Nice story huh? Well, I bought the ZB34 from a guy in California. I could make out part of the licence plate in the photos he emailed, and bugger me, it was a Queensland licence plate. WTF? I guess I was the lost puppy that followed them home.

Anyhow, I will try to ingratiate myself with everyone by showing some images of the beastie in question. It is now in my shipper's hands and I'm hoping to have it by end September. For just a split second I thought about upgrading the top end, but it's too nice to mess with.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #783137 08/31/19 8:59 am
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Prior to 1952 Australia was BSA's biggest single export market.
Almost no bikes for the 52-54 period then we came back up to being second to the USA.
There is a big trade USA<-> Aust depending upon which way the relative dollar values go


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Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #783145 08/31/19 12:16 pm
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That is a nice looking bike cas. I am fine with leaving it in the GS forum.


Never underestimate the human ability to elevate stupid to a whole new level!.
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #783148 08/31/19 1:19 pm
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Gorgeous bike. Congratulations.


1949 BSA ZB34 'Bitsa'
1959 BSA DBD34 Catalina
1973 Norton Commando 850 R
1974 Norton Commando 850 R (I know, one too many)
1975 Honda TL250 Trials, a new addition to the family
1998 Montesa Cota 315 HRC
2004 Ducati M1000ie
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #783153 08/31/19 1:36 pm
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Originally Posted by cas.vanderwoude
but am I still allowed here seeing as how I'm not a Goldstar owner? Cant seem to find a B34 comp forum?


Not for me to decide, but since you asked it in general...

Well it isn’t a goldstar, is it? And the info you are looking for is maybe better found in the general BSA subforum..
Since almost all the parts i see on Your beautifull bike have Nothing to do with GS bikes, but are standard B33 (& B31) so the general Bsa subforum seems the logica place to be.. imho.

The Bsa oC UK has those records, become a member of that club and ask the club registrar if he wil have a look... they did it for me (see a few paragraphs above) for 3 bikes...
Very helpfull guy!


Harold
BSA: M20 ‘40 M21,B31 ‘55 B33 ‘54, ZB34GS ‘49
Triumph 5T ‘49 + T100 speedkit
Sunbeam S7 ,48
Moto Guzzi LeMans ‘79
BMW R51/3 ‘ 51, R100GS ‘89
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #783208 09/01/19 8:37 am
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And for what it is worth there is another B34 competition advertised in the BSAOC Southern California magazine.


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Trevor
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: BSA_WM20] #783231 09/01/19 6:33 pm
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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
And for what it is worth there is another B34 competition advertised in the BSAOC Southern California magazine.


Can't seem to find it online. how much was it selling for Trevor? Any images?

Last edited by cas.vanderwoude; 09/01/19 6:33 pm.
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: Motolab] #783255 09/02/19 7:22 am
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Motolab - that's a very very interesting sheet you show. I have no problem with the late '48 issue of the motorcycles, as that was, as you say, standard industry practice, and also proven by Rich Child's Daytona entries in feb 1949.

What is extremely interesting is that I received the following from the GS Owners' Club UK some time ago:

"The entry in the Gold Star Despatch Book for ZB34 GS 159 is:
Despatched on 3 June 1949 to Rich Child Cycle Co, New York [then the East Coast Distributor] in a ZB32S 200-sequence frame. "

Now, as your sheet shows, 159 purportedly went to Bennett and Wood here in Sydney in December '48. The frame number shown, "2327", if that is the actual frame number, would be a 1950 frame... Curious.
My motor, 159, came from a Queensland dealer who, I believe, obtained it from the Sandy Bandit sale in the US.

I have alerted Ian Jackson, the GSOCUK registrar, about this thread and I'm sure he will be very interested.

Mebbo

Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #783261 09/02/19 8:55 am
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Cas,
Like most BSA clubs, the newsletters uploaded are a bit behind those sent to members.
This of course allows members to act on classifieds before Joe Public.
The BSAMCC of NSW does the same deals go out to members before to the general public.
So as not to step on any ones toes, e-mail the club via one of the addresses listed and mention that you were advised that Gary Macheel had a BZ34 competition advertised for sale and could you have the details please.


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Trevor
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: Mebbo] #783271 09/02/19 11:58 am
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Motolab Offline
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interesting stuff indeed...

Originally Posted by Mebbo

Now, as your sheet shows, 159 purportedly went to Bennett and Wood here in Sydney in December '48. The frame number shown, "2327", if that is the actual frame number, would be a 1950 frame... Curious.

well why should the 327 th spring frame NOT be a 1949's model year frame? it is only the 327'th S frame

who or where did you find it should be a 1950's frame number? i tend to believe the original factory lists as truth... not regarding the actual dispatch maybe but at least as production data.. if they are mentioned as such..

all the other bikes i checked, were correct regarding the numbering and actual dispatch after all, since i can trace that specific info here in the Netherlands, as they were actual delivered in the Netherlands and still bearing their original registration numbers from 1954

Originally Posted by Mebbo

My motor, 159, came from a Queensland dealer who, I believe, obtained it from the Sandy Bandit sale in the US.


yes this is interesting also... but... as i stated earlyer "it seems to be common practice in those day's, to mention the planned despatch, but not if the initial planning was changed.

that that was changed reguraly , seems logical if you see all the date's in this records, keeping in mind that there was not going out a ship each week to (both) the US and Australia, (keeping the distance and volume in mind) i presume"

i know that the BSAOC-UK registrar knows that there are more dispatch records AND that they contain different data.. (but he does do not mention that as standard...) only after i did mention this regarding my GS engine, he said... "yeah yeah".. they could contain different data indeed..


Harold
BSA: M20 ‘40 M21,B31 ‘55 B33 ‘54, ZB34GS ‘49
Triumph 5T ‘49 + T100 speedkit
Sunbeam S7 ,48
Moto Guzzi LeMans ‘79
BMW R51/3 ‘ 51, R100GS ‘89
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #783292 09/02/19 4:56 pm
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Originally Posted by Motolab
it seems to be common practice in those day's, to mention the planned despatch, but not if the initial planning was changed.
I've been in the wilderness for a week but have now returned to civilization. Motolab, the page from the despatch records you posted does settle the issue of what year the first B34 GS was produced (i.e. calendar year 1948, so model year 1949), so thank you very much. However, I think what you've written above about "planned despatch" is in error.
Originally Posted by Motolab
As these records are telling, it went to australia in december ‘48, or was supposed to go there at least.. "Strangely", the goldstar owners club (Ian) says it was dispatched in may ‘49 to the US (and i bought it also from the US)
It's worth discussing the despatch records a bit. Note that they are in numerical sequence by engine number, whereas the despatch dates are only roughly in increasing order. It's clear from details like this that the records were transcribed after the fact, which means errors could (and did) creep in from time to time. Also, when we ask someone to consult the records for a given bike, again errors can (and do) creep in from time to time. In the latter case, the odds of this happening increase when the engine and frame numbers on a given page are similar in magnitude, such as for 1957 Spitfires where both the engine and frame number sequences start with '101'.

Aside from possible transcription errors, the despatch records should be the most reliable information possible on dating these machines as well as determining their actual original destinations. At a given time the factory might be fulfilling, say, an order of 25 Gold Stars for the Australian distributor and 32 for the American, so only if the despatch records were accurate as to the destination would the factory know that they had correctly fulfilled the orders for which they expected payment. Transcription errors in the Tally No. or despatch date (or even engine or frame no.) would have been of minor significance, but mis-listing (i.e. mis-counting) the destination would be the equivalent in today's dollars of losing ~$20k of inventory.

The page posted above contains additional information about factory practice. It shows that most of the machines with engines in the range 142-163 went to Australia in early December 1948, but engine 146 went to the U.S. a month later having a "Show Finish." At no time would the factory have had an interest in accumulating a large inventory in the yard so batches of bikes were built to a specific order, tested, and entered in the records as despatched as soon as they had been fettled to pass the tests, crated and ready to be hauled to the docks. The U.S. bike fell out of that regular production stream because it took extra time to finish. I'll go further and speculate that a later page in the despatch records of Gold Stars (or A10s, or other models) will show a shipment to the U.S. at the same time the "Show Finish" Gold Star was despatched, so a lone machine like it might have been held a week or two after completion to be included with a large shipment to a given destination.

Note that the U.S. bike's Tally No. is much higher than the others on the page. It appears from this and the complete set of records I have for 1957 Spitfires that the Tally No. was assigned when a bike was completed, although in some cases it took a few extra days for some machines to be tested and approved as meeting specs, at which point they were then ready for despatch. If a bike was returned to the factory to be reworked, possibly with its engine being placed in a new frame, it was given a Tally No. and despatch date as if it were a new machine.

Again, the despatch records were created after the fact so, although not common, there can be transcription errors. However, as far as I have been able to determine, these records tell us the birth date and original destination of a given machine with a high degree of accuracy.

Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #783328 09/03/19 2:54 am
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MM,

Interesting and I'd expect a likely perspective above. Some practical thought has to be applied to the factory accounting/accountability practices of the time when looking at manufacture/dispatch sequence, I'm sure.

As a faintly relevant aside, I recall my father telling me of one of the last DBD's to arrive in New Zealand, as a Clubmans (UK style) bike. This was around 1962 and it remained unsold for a while, eventually being converted to Touring spec, after which it was sold and disappeared. It was notable, in that it was apparently a 'show bike' and also had the highest recommended maximum RPM anyone looking at these things had seen on a engine test certificate: 7250. No information made it to me as to why this might have been so, but it did have comparatively high HP numbers on the certificate.

KW


No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
Oliver Wendell Holmes
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #783345 09/03/19 8:35 am
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Also remember with respect to despatch dates, a block of space would be booked on a ship well before the bikes were made because it cuts down on the freight costs.
BSA would book this with respect to the sales season so the bikes would arrive late winter in order to be in the showrooms for the spring selling season .
I have not been able to find out when a particular bike was paid for but generally it would "X" days after it arrived at the distributor.
Bikes were not sold from stock but built to order as orders came in so the despatch book would be a mess


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Trevor
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: Magnetoman] #783346 09/03/19 10:38 am
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
However, I think what you've written above about "planned despatch" is in error.


Everything regarding this subject (both from you and me) is specilation and/or an educated guess IMHO

we were not there.... but as you (MM) have discussed earyler regading the power/dyno records (copied, half empty, etc.etc.) , they were maybe more easy than we expected them to be.. ;-)



what i do know as a fact, is that there are atleast TWO "different" dispatch records in the UK regarding GS models. wich contain (sometimes) different data and delivery points.. from the same machine/motorcycle...

and since i published only a "half" of one page (23 engines/bikes) and in a short time 2 people (me & Mebbo) are in this topic, reconising their bikes and see it with different dispatch data..... than the GS owners club has... hmmmm

so maybe there are "initial" dispatch records (planned) and an addendum with modified data (after final shipment and billing maybe?)


Harold
BSA: M20 ‘40 M21,B31 ‘55 B33 ‘54, ZB34GS ‘49
Triumph 5T ‘49 + T100 speedkit
Sunbeam S7 ,48
Moto Guzzi LeMans ‘79
BMW R51/3 ‘ 51, R100GS ‘89
Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #783358 09/03/19 1:59 pm
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Originally Posted by Motolab
what i do know as a fact, is that there are atleast TWO "different" dispatch records in the UK regarding GS models. wich contain (sometimes) different data and delivery points.. from the same machine/motorcycle...
As the saying goes, this fact, if true, ...

I would like to get to the bottom of this. If you have contact information for the people holding those two sets of records, please PM me. If there indeed are two sets it should be relatively easy to determine if both sets are from the factory or, possibly, if one set is a handwritten transcription of the actual records made some years later. When the records were held by the Science Museum Library in London it was possible to study them at length, and make written notes, but there was no photocopier available through at least the early-1990s.

Re: ZB34 competition: is it a goldstar? [Re: Motolab] #783361 09/03/19 5:03 pm
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,281
Boomer Offline
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Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,281
Originally Posted by Motolab
interesting stuff indeed...

Originally Posted by Mebbo

Now, as your sheet shows, 159 purportedly went to Bennett and Wood here in Sydney in December '48. The frame number shown, "2327", if that is the actual frame number, would be a 1950 frame... Curious.







What is the disconnect here. The list Motolab has posted shows three digit engine numbers yet the frame numbers are four digit.


Bill B...


Boomer
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