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Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Lock SOLVED! #705302 08/17/17 1:54 pm
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Peter Gee Offline OP
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Trial build of my box-a-bits 66 TR6 showed inlet cam wheel locking up on full tightening. Culprit discovered to be right hand bush E1479 standing 0.003 slightly proud of the cast cam boss on the right crankcase - easy to rectify by driving out the bush and shortening. Despite these were LF Harris bushes or so claimed by cendor.

BUT ( With Triumph there is always a "but".)

Design wise, and these are all standard pretty-good-condish parts and/or new --the fault lies in Triumph crankcase design specs IMO. Although both cam shafts are identical in length, the exhaust has end-float of 0.015" + thou..but even if I shorten the rear E1479 bush by 0.003 and make it flush with the crankcase , there is a pitiful few thou on INLET cam shoulder protruding past the casting face/bush face... .005" if I am lucky. meaning little end float. This can only be due to their being a thicker casting at the inlet end to the exhaust end of the crankcases. . Or maybe I am wrong?, given the cams are identical friction and contact areas lengths.
Possible solution to problem of no or very minimal end float (thoughts of camwheel or cam lockup and broken cases dance in the head) is to thin the top hat portion say 0.010 of the E1479 bush besides trimming it's length so the inlet cam will then have about 15 thou end float.

Others have written elsewhere "Dont worry, end float does not occur with camshafts." in which case minimal clearence of the inlet camwheel to the crackcase should not worry me if it's around 003>005 thou?

Comments welcome... thank lord I caught this at the trial build stage. What should inlet end float be, if any?

Last edited by Peter Gee; 08/21/17 7:41 pm.
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Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: Peter Gee] #705325 08/17/17 6:28 pm
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R Moulding Offline
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Just out of curiosity did you check the unfitted length of the bush against the spec in the book?

Rod


So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!
Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: R Moulding] #705327 08/17/17 7:25 pm
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Peter Gee Offline OP
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No.......I measured a few old ones in my trash box and found up to 0.010" length differences! Yet, another very active blogger here has informed me that Triumph cams, if they have almost no end float or a ton of it, (i,e, inlet vs exhaust in my case and I must guess all units therefore) are not subject to axial end play and therefore the question is, should this be true, then I can merely flush the slightly protruding bush to the crankcase face by driving with an appropriate tool, eg an extra thick washer and hollow drift.which will give me the .005" clearance between cam wheel and now flat bush end/crankcase., that the actual camshaft allows. But if there IS axial end float, then drifting that bush flush without extrating it and re-sizing it, might be disastrous then bolted up and running.

I cant find any figures in Tri lit for camshaft end float, and I wonder why? Was it not important?

This would save a lot of teardown and bush re-sizing to simply drive it flush, but I am cautious, you see.... !


Last edited by Peter Gee; 08/17/17 7:28 pm.
Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: Peter Gee] #705331 08/17/17 8:10 pm
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John Healy Offline
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The camshaft end float is .013" to .020" - right from the book.

Quote
Trial build of my box-a-bits 66 TR6 showed inlet cam wheel locking up on full tightening.

This the case much too often! Many of the aftermarket cam bushings must have their length adjusted before being installed! A lot of them are longer than the bearing shoulder on the camshaft. If not checked before being installed isn't uncommon to have to remove them from the crankcase and re-install them after they have been shortened.

When adjusting the length of the bushing you remove metal from the face of the shouldered end. Not the face where the cam wheel hits against. If you do that the end of teh bushing will sit below the face of the crankcase.

Also the i.d. of the bushings are often undersize. A new sintered bushing should JUST slip onto the camshaft with no play. It will close up when installed so the cam will not go in it. The you drive a 7/8" ball through it and it is properly sized... go figure.

Changing cam bushings, unless you are clever and know what you are doing, often can be a fool's errand. You often can end up with all things important a bit unsorted.

For example, You cannot assume the length of the camshaft drive end bearing shoulder is the same on all cams. This is especially true of aftermarket ones!. You must slip the bushing onto the cam and check the end float (.013 - .020") , and correct if needed, before installing the bushings.

I have a set of cam bushings and camshafts made by the same supplier. While the drive side cam bushing should be between 1.010 and 1.020" long the bushing supplied are .0995". That is just perfect because his camshaft bearing area is short by a similar amount. If his cam is used with a bushing that is on dimension it would have absolutely no end float and be locked solid. I guess the moto is use his bushings and cams, but checked the end float before installing the bearing.

Last edited by John Healy; 08/17/17 8:16 pm.

Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: John Healy] #705335 08/17/17 8:44 pm
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Peter Gee Offline OP
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Thank you John for this invaluable reply which makes a lot of sense and I too have bushings that vary in length. Seems an aftermarket problem. Yes I did get a 7/8 ball bearing and it worked a treat in broaching the sintered bushes, as reaming would ruin them.

You do say" When adjusting the length of the bushing you remove metal from the face of the shouldered end. Not the face where the cam wheel hits against. If you do that the end of the bushing will sit below the face of the crankcase. "

That makes a lot of sense---- thinning the "top hat" of the bush will indeed in crease the protrusion of the cam and give clearance, but, is the face end of the bush meant to be proud of the crankcase, or flush? Kindly note as stated, mine is proud a good .003" of the crankcase cam bore.???


Cheers from Africa.

Last edited by Peter Gee; 08/17/17 8:53 pm.
Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: Peter Gee] #705343 08/17/17 9:37 pm
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John Healy Offline
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Quote
but, is the face end of the bush meant to be proud of the crankcase, or flush?


You want the small end of the bush to extend proud of the crankcase! This keeps the cam wheel from rubbing on the face of the crankcase!

Quote
After skimming the shoulder end, and to get the required end float, I would have to add 0.003" to my measurements???


I do not follow this... What measurement are you referring to? Actually a stock bushing will protrude "give or take" 0.015" from the face of the case.


Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: John Healy] #705344 08/17/17 10:02 pm
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kevin roberts Offline
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Originally Posted by John Healy

I have a set of cam bushings and camshafts made by the same supplier. While the drive side cam bushing should be between 1.010 and 1.020" long the bushing supplied are .0995". That is just perfect because his camshaft bearing area is short by a similar amount. If his cam is used with a bushing that is on dimension it would have absolutely no end float and be locked solid. I guess the moto is use his bushings and cams, but checked the end float before installing the bearing.


i had a megacycle cam (exhaust?) lock up on me that way in the original bushings when the nuts were tightened. long ago before i knew what end float even was. mailed the cam back to them and when they returned it there was no more problem.

a recent pair in a different engine fit fine into the new bushes i bought from raber's, after a bit of reaming.


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: John Healy] #705376 08/18/17 10:32 am
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Peter Gee Offline OP
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Thanks for the clarification john. that covers every base....the bushing I have, already protrudes about 003 beyond the crankcase face and provides protection against the cam wheel rubbing on the crankcase. Once I have skimmed the "top hat" (shouldered side) to get more end float I should be fine. Worth checking out also is the thickness of the timing breather thimble..original ones were quite thin..I have seen some much thicker Taiwanese ones, and that would effect end float too.

Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: John Healy] #782484 08/24/19 10:59 pm
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kevin roberts Offline
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Originally Posted by John Healy

For example, You cannot assume the length of the camshaft drive end bearing shoulder is the same on all cams. This is especially true of aftermarket ones!. You must slip the bushing onto the cam and check the end float (.013 - .020") , and correct if needed, before installing the bushings.

I have a set of cam bushings and camshafts made by the same supplier. While the drive side cam bushing should be between 1.010 and 1.020" long the bushing supplied are .0995". That is just perfect because his camshaft bearing area is short by a similar amount. If his cam is used with a bushing that is on dimension it would have absolutely no end float and be locked solid. I guess the moto is use his bushings and cams, but checked the end float before installing the bearing.

all right.

what is the best way to do this? i have a pair of cams that lock up when th epinion nuts are tightened.

the timing side bushes measure a consistent 0.992-0.993.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and as near as i can figger, the bearing surface on the new megacycle cams is 1.002-1.012 or so. i don't know how to measure this accurately, and just using a dial caliper isn't giving me consistent resuts

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

what's a better way to measure the bearing surface length on the camshaft?





every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: Peter Gee] #782524 08/25/19 11:09 am
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Kevin, I just measured a T140 stock exhaust cam the same way as you and got 1.010


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: Peter Gee] #782702 08/27/19 12:28 am
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kevin roberts Offline
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i've got the old megacycle 510-X2 exhaust cam from my LSR in front of me that measures a consistent 1.004 on the right side, and the intake measures 1.003 to 1.004.

a short right-side cam and a long right-side bush would be 1.003 minus 0.993, or 0.010 end float. that seems a bit tight, based on john's reccommendation.

i don't remember where the bushes came from-- raber's probably. i'm curious why they're short-- 0.993, compared to the 1.010-1.020 the shop manual lists.

but even then they seem too long for the super-short megacycle cams that i ran without drama in the blown-up cases. i had to fuss with the reaming on those, but they ran fine.

but now that i remember, i had my machinist install the bushes, and the ones i gave him from raber's didn't work. he called bob up and got some different ones and installed those instead. i don't remember what dimension didn't work-- he was just pressing them in, he didn't have the cam wheels.

i guess the answer is that i need to get stinking lathe and learn how to use it.


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: kevin roberts] #782746 08/27/19 12:16 pm
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Irish Swede Offline
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Some junior colleges still have machine shop classes, with lathes and mills.

Consider taking a machine shop course, or asking the instructor if he will do the job (or one of his top students.)

Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: Peter Gee] #782747 08/27/19 12:35 pm
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I got a lathe about 5 years ago and got a retired machinist friend to show me basic stuff.. He complained about my dull tooling and excessive play in the cross feed thingy....So I looked at the many U Tube videos and with some some practice I am able to use a worn lathe and dull tooling just like Triumph did....


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: Peter Gee] #782749 08/27/19 1:12 pm
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gavin eisler Offline
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i recently worked over some triumph cam bushings in the lathe for a friend. The ODs were not consistent, effectively tapered as supplied, once trued up the bushes pressed in fine and needed no further reaming. You need a lathe.


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Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: Peter Gee] #782902 08/28/19 8:30 pm
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heavens, gavin, i need a milling machine and a boring bar as well. but a lathe is high on the list. there are too many things i can't do because i can't trim something.

but i think i'll try thinning the cam bushing flanges on a whetstone first. i need to take off 0.003 or so, and i think i can do that with some care.


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Inlet Cam No End Float, Camwheel Locking [Re: Peter Gee] #782923 08/28/19 10:32 pm
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koan58 Offline
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Quote "but i think i'll try thinning the cam bushing flanges on a whetstone first. i need to take off 0.003 or so, and i think i can do that with some care."

I think it is unwise to use a medium that releases abrasive particles on sintered bronze, as the particles can find their way into the pores and lodge there.


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