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battery and kilometers #782237 08/22/19 4:17 pm
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reverb Offline OP
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Hello; I bought a gel battery a bit more than a year ago and the other day I needed to buy a new one. Only about 7000kms or so. In my opinion, is not too much.
Seems no point to spend more money in a gel battery to change it every year...

This batteries have a light on the top that shows how discharged or charged are them. In first instance I thought about the alternator not charging right and/or the heated gloves but I think that 2.2A of the heated gloves plus low beam light and tail light riding at 4200RPM could be good for the RM24.

What s your opinions?

Thanks

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Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782268 08/22/19 9:31 pm
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Not all batteries are equal. An AGM (absorbent glass mat) is a good way to go. They are sealed and like a lead acid but have a matting between the plates - or as I understand it. I’ve had them last years providing the battery is left fully charged.

My current battery is Gel and it’s been a-ok. But it’s the second one in 3 years.... but that’s because it hasn’t had much use (although the AGMs lasted much longer)


beerchug
Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782279 08/22/19 11:51 pm
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...the old and new are the same and you can see from the top those absorbent clothes; so may be are AGM?
I did not know about that but are all China crap

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782308 08/23/19 7:55 am
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Fit a volt meter, then you can see if you are killing the battery by under or over charging.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782322 08/23/19 1:06 pm
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I had bad results with AGM batteries until I got rid of the zener diode and installed a Tympanium rectifier/regulator. There is evidence that the zener diode does not regulate the charging voltage accurately enough for an AGM battery.

I'm now having very good results running a Motobatt 11AH AGM battery with the Tympanium. I also installed a new alternator rotor, but I'm not sure the old one was bad - both of them supported their own weight hanging from a screwdriver.

I agree about the voltmeter, good idea.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782337 08/23/19 3:07 pm
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reverb Offline OP
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I checked the old battery and this one, with a voltmeter.
All ok, but as mentioned, these batteries have an indicator light on top (Green, Yellow and Red) that shows the charge.
I did 1300 km the other day and the old battery was charged; first hours I rode by night with low beam and heated gloves; did not like it, so I unplugged the gloves.
In a big city we were in a traffic jam for about 1 hour and the other guy battery (Yamaha 1100 with Yuasa) died; the old one mine do not but about 1100 km the light was in Red so I decided to buy a new one.

Do not know, but 2.2 A seems not so much for a RM24...the rotor is a new Lucas; podtronics regulator and surefire ignition.

Or your are mentioning other way to check with a voltmeter?

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782339 08/23/19 3:18 pm
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I meant fit a voltmeter to the bike, like you would an ammeter, so you can see the system voltage as you are riding, checking the volts after a ride only tells you about the battery at that point.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782340 08/23/19 3:26 pm
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I did in my A65 BSA and liked it very much.
Voltmeter showed level of charging and with my 1 phase alternator it wasn't much mostly like 12.5V with ma lights on, 13.5V with lights off at 4000 rpm. Not possible to ride with lights on in town, with many traffic lights and heavy traffic.
My AGM battery lasted 3 seasons, but I only charged it once during winter.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782358 08/23/19 6:23 pm
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I have the same charging and ignition setup as you, if the battery is dead it’ll normally start after a couple of kicks. The RM24 will give a very high output of charge from a couple of thousand rpms. It might be worth having a look at your loom, your grounds and any connections.


beerchug
Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782361 08/23/19 6:53 pm
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A volt meter is much more useful than an ammeter. As stated earlier under or over voltage will kill a battery.
I fitted a LiFePo battery to my Aprilia, half the size of the lead acid it replaced, higher cranking amps and virtually zero self discharge. When it arrived by post I thought the box was empty, it weighs half of fukc all


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Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782367 08/23/19 7:48 pm
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It's worth fitting a LED alternator/battery charge light to the headlight shell in place of one of the other warning lights. The light is green if the battery voltage is between 12.6 and 15.4v, red if less than 12.6v and various other colours depending on the state of the battery & charge.

I have this device fitted to my A65 and Norton Commando, its easy to fit and well worthwhile to get an idea of the charge status. This Link for an example.

If your battery is draining there are a couple of fixes you might consider:-
- change the regulator/rectifier, for a modern type
- consider fitting LED headlight bulbs, these are much lower wattage than original but can provide better illumination, see This Link

I don't think the battery is your problem but more likely the charging system isnt 100% which combined with the heated grips and headlight is slowly draining the system.

Last edited by gunner; 08/23/19 7:54 pm.

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Re: battery and kilometers [Re: gunner] #782371 08/23/19 8:26 pm
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Originally Posted by gunner


If your battery is draining there are a couple of fixes you might consider:-
- change the regulator/rectifier, for a modern type
- consider fitting LED headlight bulbs, these are much lower wattage than original but can provide better illumination, see This Link

I don't think the battery is your problem but more likely the charging system isnt 100% which combined with the heated grips and headlight is slowly draining the system.



The poster mentions he has an RM24, this is a 3 phase high output alternator, about the maximum charging capacity you can get for our Brit iron.

He is also using a podtronics Reg Rec which is one of the best units on the market.

It’s possible that there is an issue with the stator and output voltage can be checked prior to regulation, but I’d be surprised if this is a problem.

The RM24 can support 100w of lighting plus ignition at tick over, it’s quite a powerful charging system! I’ve used heatedgrips on a lower output charging system and find it doesn’t give any grief.

A good idea would be to check the resistance through the loom.


beerchug
Re: battery and kilometers [Re: Allan Gill] #782376 08/23/19 9:26 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
The poster mentions he has an RM24, this is a 3 phase high output alternator, about the maximum charging capacity you can get for our Brit iron.


It's a '79 T140E which would normally have had the low(er) output version RM24 47252 stator (still only needing a single Zener originally, and 9AH battery).


Originally Posted by reverb
I bought a gel battery a bit more than a year ago


You mentioned in a previous thread that you bought a new gel battery in February this year and that you had problems with it then, so is this a different 'gel battery'?

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/764413/battery-drain






Last edited by L.A.B.; 08/23/19 10:49 pm.
Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782388 08/23/19 11:12 pm
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...hi L.A.B.; seems that you have more memory than me or that the accident let me forget things; I did not remember the other battery so even worst if that this gel battery only lasted few months. May be I need to buy a new stator...I will open the primary to see if something is loose.

Heated gloves (Gerbings; they do not fabricate more) not grips.

Charging system could be however I did those 1300 km with those traffic jams et all so possibly still manage to charge something...

Did not know about an original Lucas high output RM24; I only know about the "newer" 280W ones.
I assume that go on the 80s models? Is it possible to fit a battery with more Amps? The ones that I have been saying are bigger in size for the space in the bike.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782429 08/24/19 6:47 am
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Gloves or grips are irrelevant they will work in a similar fashion.

I think you mean 180w RM24? This is what I have on mine, bought it from LP WILLIAMS some 12/13 years ago and been happy with it.


LAP, good call. I didn’t realise there was 2 versions of the RM24 facepalm

47244 being the other.


beerchug
Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782436 08/24/19 8:14 am
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Originally Posted by "reverb"
Heated gloves (Gerbings; they do not fabricate more) not grips.


Gerbing produces a range of heated items, not just gloves.
https://gerbing.co.uk/


Originally Posted by "reverb"
Is it possible to fit a battery with more Amps?


Given enough time and effort (and money) then it should be possible to modify the existing battery carrier, make a new one, or fit the later carrier as the electric start models had a larger (14AH) battery but that also required the seat pan to be recessed to allow sufficient space for the taller battery.

https://boaspares.com/products/triumph-seat-t140-electric-start-with-battery-recess

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782438 08/24/19 10:22 am
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Fitting a bigger battery is not going to cure the problem, just delay the point where the battery becomes too flat.
You need to ensure the charging system is working, start the bike and whilst idling turn the lights on full beam. Does the headlight get brighter if you rev the motor?
Put a volt meter across the battery terminals, if fully charged it should be around 13.5 volts, start the engine and rev to about 2500RPM, the voltage should rise to around 14.2 - 14.4 volts More than this will cook your battery less than this your battery will not charge.
Repeat the test with lights on and your heated gloves on, you should still see 14.2 - 14.4 volts
Does your battery go flat when the bike is not in use?


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Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782457 08/24/19 3:46 pm
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Hi Allan; yes, 180W. The normal provides 100W? I had low beam but the tail light was 21W (bad connection so the stop light working) plus EI and gloves that I do not know the Wattage and may be the stator is charging not a full; hence the low battery.

Hi L.A.B,
Seems the original Gerbings from USA was sold some years ago. The model that I have is not fabricated more. Good to hear that in UK is possible to find stuff; because I need couple of accessories.

Just see; I would continue with this seat pan; due to the color, stance, etc.
I will fit an Smartfire Pazon that seems a bit different than the surefire so I would check the space there.

Hi Andy; I did that test but not with the gloves and was ok; I will do it with the gloves. I always have the battery fully charged; so I think the test would do it right; possibly the problem is with all these "ON" for more than an hour or so.

Thanks

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782464 08/24/19 5:58 pm
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2.2 amps x 12 volts = 26.4 watts.
i have a 3 phase high output alternator , Boyer ignition, 60/55 watt main lamp , and a voltage LED indicator, if the revs go below around 2,500 on dip beam the light starts to show low charge, on main beam it needs 3,000 rpm, . if i were to add another load of 26 Watts like your gloves I expect I would need to keep the revs over 3.5 K to keep the account balanced.
You are asking too much of your system to run the gloves and lights. One or the other , not both might be OK.


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Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782496 08/25/19 3:43 am
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...hi Gavin, could be but as mentioned, the gloves were used at around 4200RPMs and seeing that the low beam was poor I decided to unplug at around 180 km; but my RM24 is the normal output; however, after many kilometers the battery did not went fully charged so I decided to buy (at about 1100km) a new one to make it home without that possible problem.
Is very cold here due to the wind and humidity; even more at 4:00AM; the hour I was riding that day.
Do not get it your 180W stator that cannot hold that consume.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782502 08/25/19 4:21 am
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Install a voltmeter.
Without live circuit voltage reading
As loads and rpms change ... the problem and/or solutions ... are just a guess .
.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782513 08/25/19 6:46 am
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still happy with a lead acid 9 amp with all the old stuff like Zener, points and all. Only problem I have ever had was coming home on a 2 hour ride late in November with an electric vest when the battery was pretty much done and having to unhook the vest so I could have lights at the stop lights. Bought a battery the next day. So I just keep using the original system without complaint. Maybe one day I'll graduate to all the new updates but so far so good on the old stuff.

Cheers, Wilf


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Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782515 08/25/19 7:21 am
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If you cannot find a good reason for your battery going flat, fit an led headlamp bulb.
The new ones are very good and use less than half the power.

I still think there is something wrong with the wiring on your bike though, that alternator should
cope with the load you have with no problems. When you work out power consumption on
these set ups, the system voltage is actually 14.2-14.5 not 12v. That is the voltage that the regulator
will control at and at which the system should operate. Make sure the 3 leads coming from the stator
are well connected to the regulator, solder if you wish. Then make sure the output wires from the
regulator connect directly to the battery, using reasonably heavy cable. This will ensure the battery
is charged at the optimum. Avoid lots of connectors in those lines.
What happens after that is just the discharge side, at least then you will know the battery is being
charged as well as is possible.
Just my 2c, but so many of these problems are due to poor connections and wiring on the charging side.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782525 08/25/19 11:57 am
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Ignition load Boyer micro digital , say 3 amps at 14 volts is 42 Watts ( pulled this figure from thin air , according to Boyer the micro power uses half the micro digital which I have, at 1.5 amps)
Tail lamp , 6 W Book figure
main beam 60 W My lamps ( not stock ) + 2.2 Watts for main beam indicator
Dip 50 W My lamps
Instruments, 2 x 2.2 = 4.4 W book figures
Steady state on dip, total load 102.4 Watts, on main 109.6 W

adding gloves at 2.2A x 14 volt = 30.8 W brings this to 140W

if the alternator rotor has poor magnetism these figures will be unattainable.

If the max output of 180 W is well up the rev range ( I dont know where it peaks) then at low revs even a decent system is going to struggle, be about break even at cruising speeds/ revs 3- 4 K. If I cruise at 4,000 rpms, everything is fine, around town idling and puttering about 2,500 rpms this system is in debt without gloves. I have a 6 year old lead acid battery, 13,000 mile, still going strong ( this is taken off the bike in Winter and stored indoors).
Dirty connections from alternator to regulator will certainly not help.
I use heated gear on my more modern bike, I dont think my Beesa would cope with lights and additional heating load. maybe with an LED headlamp as Nick suggests , I am using a Wipac quad optic, its an excellent light , I am not changing that anytime soon. Its cold in Scotland Ive tried heated grips and heated waistcoats , if using heated gear I think you get more for your Watts with a heated waistcoat, keeping the core warm is much more important than the extremities. Silk inner gloves and or additional outer muffs are better for keeping hands warm .

Last edited by gavin eisler; 08/25/19 12:18 pm.

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Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782558 08/25/19 4:52 pm
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3 phase should reach max charging capacity at around 2400 rpm. The single phase is more linear throughout the Rev range.


beerchug
Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782562 08/25/19 5:23 pm
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...if I remember right; I connected the regulator "earth" to the bolt in the frame and the hot wire to the hot wire used with the zener. Is all working.
The stator wires are perfectly connected. I will check the voltage with those numbers.

Yes, may be is just that I killed the battery with the gloves, then the traffic jams did not helped but still plenty of km on the road at 4200 or more and battery with light in Red.
Yes, I will do the volt meter test; I need to find one with alligator clips or similar. Also now I dismantled the rear stuff to try to put the wiring cover that goes inside the rear mudguard; fix the external filter holder (that when I find a timing cover I will remove it forever) and connect the rear brake light wires that were missed.
All crap bad done by PO.

-I do not have a problem with chest etc; I have enough warm there; the problem (other riders too) is with the hands and the legs before the feet. These gloves have plenty of layers and many reviews in other countries like USA, say that they use them without plug in...not possible in Winter here. I am on the road for few hours normally.

Hi Wilfred, my riding sometimes is by night and as you see in your experience, the old stuff do not work. Also, I removed the zener diode and rectifier due to not working not because I want these new devices.



Re: battery and kilometers [Re: Allan Gill] #782563 08/25/19 5:36 pm
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Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782670 08/26/19 3:25 pm
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...if its made for more than one zener diode and now I have a podtronics instead of one zener and rectifier; I assume that still the podtronics can handle it?

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782671 08/26/19 3:31 pm
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If it's a 5 wire podtronics then there's no problem.


beerchug
Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782672 08/26/19 3:44 pm
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Allen's right, if the podtronics is three phase it will have 3 yellow wires which connect to the alternator. one red wire (usually earth) and one black wire to connect to the battery.

The 3 phase podtronics are rated at 240 watts which is more than the high output RM24 can produce (180watts) and much more than the low output RM24 (120 watts).


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Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782679 08/26/19 5:44 pm
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...yes, of course is three phase; is a RM24 that is three phase...but what was the point for the RM24 if provide 120W? similar to the previous iterations; could be provide such Watts at lower RPMs than the others? Then for the 80s models came these 180W high outputs

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782681 08/26/19 6:06 pm
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Regardless of the total output. The RM24 achieves that earlier in the Rev range than the single phase units. Even the RM23


beerchug
Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782698 08/26/19 11:19 pm
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...hi Allan, seems that we are talking the same.
I refitted the external filter etc then did the test at idling and revving. I still do not find a volt meter with alligator clips and smaller enough.
Anyway, I had bad numbers so very possible that stator or one of the phases is not working properly.
12.65 Battery. Idling a bit less; then with pilot light and tail light decrease at 12.38V then with low beam went down to 12.25 and then I start to rev at 2500 or so.
Somewhat complicated to grab the volt meter pins and to rev but the battery light was in RED; read 13 something and a bit of 14 something but overall not good.
I thought that idling with pilot and tail lights the consume could be a bit less than 12.65V.

I do not think that the podtronics is not acting due to I do not have something like 16V or more but may be it reduce too much the power?
Also I do not think that some wire is keeping some consume because I do not finish with a flat battery over the night.

I think that is time to spend big Dollars in the Smartfire for dual plug head, the stator, a timing cover and smaller bits.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782739 08/27/19 6:33 am
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Is it possible to measure directly across the AC output of the stator?

I think there are some resistance values also to check but I don’t know what they are.

Like you I don’t think the Pod is the problem, disconnecting from the battery (if possible) should show a maximum output from the pod without it having to work against the resistance of the battery. If you did this test first then it might save you checking the stator directly.


beerchug
Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782743 08/27/19 8:01 am
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NickL Offline
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It's unlikely the Pod unit is playing up. They are pretty good.
As i said before the connections to the stator are normally the problem as are good battery connections.
The resistance of the stator coils is very small,less than a couple of ohms. If you measure between any pair of the stator wires.
Also check that there is NO connection between the stator wires and frame/earth/ground whatever you want to call it.
Measuring the Pod output with no battery can be misleading unless using an accurate analogue type meter, you will tend to read
the peak voltages. The better way is to measure with the battery connected as this will absorb the peaks like a large capacitor.
The reading should be around 14.5v dc when the bike is at around 2000rpm if the battery is healthy and no lights are on.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782773 08/27/19 5:48 pm
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reverb Offline OP
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...if I have the podtronics connected to the battery and I have been measuring directly to the battery, I was not measuring the podtronics?

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782777 08/27/19 6:24 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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Your measuring the output of the podtronics against the resistance of the battery. If the podtronics has a peak limited output (I’ve probably just
Made that term up) say 16vdc then disconnected from the battery is should give that max output.

In some CDI systems I have seen 50v unregulated when disconnected from the battery, on the same bike it was also killing off batteries. About 1 a season.

Working back through the system you should be able to pin point anything, I’m not shooting anyone’s advice down on here, guys like Nick blow my knowledge way out of the water on these old turds.


beerchug
Re: battery and kilometers [Re: Allan Gill] #782786 08/27/19 7:23 pm
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quinten Offline
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Originally Posted by reverb
...if I have the podtronics connected to the battery and I have been measuring directly to the battery, I was not measuring the podtronics?


Yes , but you're measuring the pod voltage under a variable load ...

At a minimum ,
The ignition load .

But also the battery as a load .

.. the battery never disappears from circuit ... unless you remove it from circuit.
The battery imposes its own 'variable load' on the Pod Tronics ... depending on its state of charge ( and health )
... this , like all other loads ...shows up as voltage drop.

(The resistance of a battery goes down as it charges ) ( and voltage of the alternator- battery circuit increases)
If a battery has gone high resistance... it places a higher load on the alternators output ... that will not
Go away because the battery isnt really able to charge .

Its possible your low voltage readings are, at least partially , a battery problem.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782810 08/27/19 10:42 pm
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NickL Offline
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Actually Q, the batter's resistance increases as it charges, that's why at full charge
the incoming voltage from a charging circuit will be supplying less current. VIR and all that........
Anyway that doesn't matter at the moment, just sort the wiring/connections out Fernando and your
problems will probably go away.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782812 08/27/19 10:51 pm
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reverb Offline OP
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Hi Quinten; both (older and new) batteries have the problem so the problem is not with the battery.

Hi Niquel, so exactly where should I put the voltmeter pins to achieve a good measure of the podtronics? Is not clearly for me, hence the question in previous comment. If I disconnect the Red and Black wire from the hot wire and the earthed bolt the podtronics would be disconnected from the battery...if I let the connections is like to read the battery; so I do not get or I still I cannot visualize something.

Thanks

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782816 08/27/19 10:59 pm
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NickL Offline
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The pod should be directly connected to the battery with as few in line connections as possible.
You can then measure the voltage at the battery. + - terminals.
Make up a couple of leads so you can see your meter easily when you operate the throttle.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: NickL] #782817 08/27/19 11:11 pm
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reverb Offline OP
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Why is not the same to have the Red wire connected to the hot wire that goes to the battery; is just the same current...also still do not get it why is not like I have been measuring; I mean I touch the positive and negative of the battery...I understand about that the battery is like a resistance but I have been having those numbers; 13 something and 14 something but plenty of voltage drop at idling. No doubt that is the stator.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782849 08/28/19 8:24 am
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NickL Offline
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I'm not very good at explaining stuff, sorry.

If you are testing the system as i said with the battery in circuit, you should get around 14.5 volts at 2000 rpm with no lights on.
This voltage may take a while to get up to that if the battery is not very good.
When you let the bike idle, the voltage will drop as the alternator is probably not able to run the ignition and keep the battery
on charge at around 800-1000 rpm.

If you have measured the stator leads as mentioned before, the stator is ok. All 3 phases should be working if you measure across any two leads and read less than 2 ohms.
You need to do this for all the combinations of the 3 wires. Example: A-B A-C B- C And any phase to Frame, if there is a circuit to frame the stator is faulty or one of it's
wires has lost it's insulation.

With the stator being ok, the rotor needs to be well magnetized for a good output and the air gap needs to be around 8 thou all around the fitted rotor.

Re: battery and kilometers [Re: reverb] #782877 08/28/19 5:34 pm
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Dibnah Offline
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Monitor voltage and current, increase cable size, install LED lights, cycle the power to the gloves/grips,

In the UK, if it's time for heated gloves then it's time for a Land Rover.

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