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Barn Find Beeza #782227 08/22/19 2:49 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I picked up this A65L last weekend. It is a 1967 model and has sat for 20 years in a neighbor's garage. All I've done is give it a good wash and a visual inspection. The engine turns over on the kickstart, but I have not attempted anything on it yet.

I'm curious about the front fork. The PO said something about Betor forks, but didn't know much (anything) about them. Does anyone know about them?

Also, if the eagle-eyed notice anything about the bike, I'd be grateful for any/all comments. Although I'm familiar with bikes from the 80s on, I know nothing about BSAs of this period.

Last edited by Psychopasta; 08/22/19 2:52 pm.
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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782231 08/22/19 3:14 pm
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kommando Online Content
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Stay away from jet washing old bikes in water in future, they are not sealed very well so the water is now lurking inside. An oily rag would be better, cleans just as well and leaves a protective layer. For now leave it out in the hot sun so it dries off, you may need to remove some covers to get all the water out.

Your front wheel is BSA but the fork legs and triple tree are from something else

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782234 08/22/19 3:26 pm
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Mazzochi?

Engine is 70 or later, Although looking at the barrel it could even be 69' (later barrels have bigger studs with 12pt nut mounting, the barrels are cutaway on the bottom fin to accomodate this.... pre 90 dont)


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782269 08/22/19 10:06 pm
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TT100s , decent forks, the good 8" single leading shoe front brake , a well worn saddle , 2 into one pipes and later Concentrics with a twin pull maybe Tomasellii twistgrip ( would have been monos in 67). As Allan says a 70 or 71 motor with the early no fins rocker cover , head must be 70 or earlier , twin carbs no tach drive , possibly A65 T with a lightning head Someone enjoyed this bike. All good mods , could be a fun bike to ride. The shocks look like early Jap, change them .

Last edited by gavin eisler; 08/22/19 10:10 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782294 08/23/19 3:48 am
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Danam Offline
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wow, that's a barn find?? It's way better than mine! Good one!

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782344 08/23/19 4:13 pm
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+1 for the fun looking and riding bike, Betor forks were more advance and better working than 67 originals ( really crude ), carbs will be in need of cleaning, charging system and electric loom has to be checked, compression is probably low, but nothing good trashing on the road wouldn't cure. Seat has to be rebuild with a new foam and probably cover.
What are your plans for a bike ?

Last edited by Adam M.; 08/23/19 4:14 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782347 08/23/19 4:37 pm
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Lannis Online Content
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Originally Posted by Psychopasta
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I picked up this A65L last weekend. It is a 1967 model and has sat for 20 years in a neighbor's garage. All I've done is give it a good wash and a visual inspection. The engine turns over on the kickstart, but I have not attempted anything on it yet.

I'm curious about the front fork. The PO said something about Betor forks, but didn't know much (anything) about them. Does anyone know about them?

Also, if the eagle-eyed notice anything about the bike, I'd be grateful for any/all comments. Although I'm familiar with bikes from the 80s on, I know nothing about BSAs of this period.


It's definitely a "Bitsa"; the forks, rocker cover, etc show that, so that sort of frees you up to do what you like with it. I'd make a close-to-stock rider out of it if it were mine. Get the frame and engine numbers so you know what parts books to order from.

If it were sitting in my garage right now, I'd take the primary cover and outer timing cover off and look and see what's in there. I'd do a leak-down check on the cylinders, adjust the valves, I'd pull the sump plate and do a crank end-play check, and would pull the oil tank and get the 20 years worth of sludge out of it.

If the crank isn't loose, the cylinders have reasonable compression, and the chains and such look good, I'd fill it up with oil and gas and enjoy it; otherwise, fix what's worn and go from there.

Lannis


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782414 08/24/19 1:52 am
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Hey Lannis, are you the same Lannis who posts on WildGuzzi?

Last edited by Psychopasta; 08/24/19 2:21 pm. Reason: grammar Nazi
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782416 08/24/19 1:58 am
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Thanks everyone!

My plans are pretty close to what Lannis said. I need to get the wheels off and look at the brakes, as I know nothing about drums anymore. I'll also pull the forks, which I believe are Betor, and just see what they are. I'm imagining at the least they'll need new seals and oil, but I just have no idea what I'll find. It also needs speedo, horn, headlamp...all the boring stuff.

I'm looking at a fairly minimal restoration, but you know how it goes once you start poking and prodding.

- Pasta

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782417 08/24/19 2:23 am
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I'm surprised no one has brought up the old sludge trap bugaboo. Ok, there's a sludge trap in the crankshaft. If the bike was run a lot with dirty oil, and/or stored for a long period of time with dirty oil in it, particularly in a cold damp environment, the sludge trap could be full of sludge. The sludge trap runs through the crankpins, so if it is clogged, oil will not reach the big end bearings.

What you find when you remove the sump plate from the bottom of the crankcase will be an indication of how the bike was maintained. If it looks pretty good, you may decide to take a chance and run it as is. Unfortunately, clearing the sludge trap requires a complete engine tear-down.

I agree this looks like a fun project. The front forks are a nice upgrade, performance-wise; the originals leave a lot to be desired. In addition to what's already been said, the rocker cover is pre-'67, and the fuel tank is post-'67.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782422 08/24/19 3:28 am
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Thanks Mark. Seems to me that a sludge trap that needs the engine to be torn down to get at defeats the point of a sludge trap. You'd ideally be able to clean it without the engine teardown. But what do I know?

I'm getting used to the idea that the engine may need to be torn down anyway, but I would like to get her running first so I at least know what sounds she makes.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782444 08/24/19 1:53 pm
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Nick H Online Content
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I tore down a perfectly fine Triumph to check the sludge trap only to find it perfectly clean and no witness marks on the crank to indicate that it had ever been touched. Peace of mind.
Someone commented to me that in here in the US we use bikes recreationally unlike in Britain where they are more commonly the primary transportation. Helps to know some history of the bike but if not, I wouldn't take chances.


1966 BSA Lightning
1967 Triumph "Choppa"
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782448 08/24/19 2:12 pm
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Hey Nick, thanks for that. I'm British originally, now in the good ol'US and you're right about bikes being used as transport, but only bikes of this vintage. Things like a Lightning would definitely have been working beasts, and not garage queens dripping in chrome :-)

Last edited by Psychopasta; 08/24/19 2:23 pm. Reason: Typo
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: gavin eisler] #782450 08/24/19 2:19 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
TT100s , decent forks, the good 8" single leading shoe front brake , a well worn saddle , 2 into one pipes and later concentrics with a twin pull maybe Tomasellii twistgrip ( would have been monos in 67). As Allan says a 70 or 71 motor with the early no fins rocker cover , head must be 70 or earlier , twin carbs no tach drive , possibly A65 T with a lightning head Someone enjoyed this bike. All good mods , could be a fun bike to ride. The shocks look like early Jap, change them .


Thanks Gavin, and Allan.

The engine number pulls up as 67, so I'm assuming that this engine has been heavily modded. Judging from the looks of the bike, and the fact that it has no instruments, the choke cables are gone etc, I think its primary use was not on the road but flattracking and general hooning around on.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782451 08/24/19 2:27 pm
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As its a Y it may be one of those 69's with a 67 number and the engine is not heavily modded.

Read this thread

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=523437&page=29

Note there are Y bikes and -Y bikes and not all are the same.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782462 08/24/19 5:43 pm
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Certain elements of the motor are certainly 1970, eg the top entry clutch cable and what looks like bi hex barrel flange nuts on 3/8" studs. Read the thread kommando linked.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782465 08/24/19 6:19 pm
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Indeed! Thank you very much guys, lots of reading and learning ahead of me.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782569 08/25/19 6:47 pm
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I have a question on compression testing. The engine turns over on the kickstart, but does not run yet. Should I put some oil in the top of the cylinders to help seal the bores when I test the engine compression?

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782570 08/25/19 6:51 pm
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It will most likely give a higher reading than without the oil but most people say cold compressions tests are worth much.


1966 BSA Lightning
1967 Triumph "Choppa"
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782571 08/25/19 6:51 pm
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It will most likely give a higher reading than without the oil but most people say cold compressions tests aren't worth much.


1966 BSA Lightning
1967 Triumph "Choppa"
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782574 08/25/19 7:08 pm
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Originally Posted by Psychopasta
Hey Lannis, are you the same Lannis who posts on WildGuzzi?


As far as I know, I'm like Tigger : I'm The Only One!

Lannis


Play stupid games ... Win stupid prizes!
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782578 08/25/19 7:31 pm
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I thought it must be you. I'm the same Psychopasta as over there...

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782581 08/25/19 8:41 pm
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Originally Posted by Psychopasta
Thanks Mark. Seems to me that a sludge trap that needs the engine to be torn down to get at defeats the point of a sludge trap.


When these things were built, the expected time-to-overhaul was 10-15K miles, 20K at most. With proper maintenance, the sludge trap would not fill up in that span. They were also not planning on bikes sitting idle for 20 years.

The sitting idle is a big part of the problem. In one engine I tore down, the sludge in the trap had the consistency of a wax crayon, which can only have occurred from sitting over a long period of time, possibly in an adverse environment.

But again, take a reading on what you find in the sump; if it's not excessively grungy, it may be safe to run the engine as is.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782590 08/25/19 10:13 pm
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Fair point Mark. I have a feeling the engine will need to be torn down. It looks like the bike has been well (ab)used as a tracker. I'll be draining the fluids and having a looksee soon.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782686 08/26/19 8:06 pm
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Took the tank and seat off to get a closer look. The old girl does look a bit knackered:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and can you believe it? No toolkit!
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

But basically sound. I do not like the exhausts that it has. Note how they are held onto the head:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the way they go below the frame rails:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

You can see why it has no center stand, and I'm going to have to remove the exhausts in order to be able to support the bike on its frame. Nice use of a piece of wire to keep them connected!

Next thing: I can find no evidence of a frame number:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Took off the side panel. I have three of the four Oddie screws
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Does anyone have any idea why it has three condensors?
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

In other news, the tank is in good shape. A few small dents, any suggestions fro removing them?

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Though all the mounting rubbers are more depressed than Marvin the paranoid android. All thoughts and observations gratefully received

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782696 08/26/19 11:15 pm
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raf940 Offline
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might as well take the whole thing apart and start from square one do one piece at a time allow several thousand bucks and many months of work it will be fun!! here before and after of my bitsa rig

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]anthropology careers and salaries
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Last edited by raf940; 08/26/19 11:17 pm.

1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
2 olive drab WWII military bicycle replicas
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782711 08/27/19 1:18 am
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Wow Psychopasta, how did the first picture look so good? Yeah, like Raf said, you're looking at a bit by bit resto...

Condensers: Someone used a 3-pack off a Trident or a Rocket 3. Note only two are connected.

So it's not a 2-into-1 exhaust. The stock header pipes also just push into the head, but they are secured by the frame mounts and either a cross-brace, or a crossover pipe on later models. In lieu of these supports, the springs are required to hold the pipes in place. This is a common racing adaptation.

'67 models had the serial number on the gusset around the headstock, left side.










Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782720 08/27/19 2:47 am
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what MarkZ said is pretty much what I thought (about how did 1st pic look so good)

when I first saw it I thought ........wow that tank looks good but on 2nd batch of pics now I see

Its a full tear down job for sure ........you can guarantee all the seals will be gone and going by the amount of rust on nuts ect all the motor internals wont be so good either ........good start point for a restoration however

what you need to decide before you start is what sort of standard you want to finish it to ........a parts books restoration would be a money pit........everything re-plated ect will add up fast.......but hey its a good bike worth doing to what ever standard you decide.


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782725 08/27/19 3:24 am
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MarcB Online Content
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That frame doesn't appear to match the motor. That's a set of 69-and-up cases, based on the shifting mechanism in the timing cover and the oil pressure fitting in the front. If it's a Y bike then it's a 1970 motor. It's possible it was put in a 67 frame because of the A65LA VIN confusion, and the vin rubbed (or filed) off to hide the mismatched numbers.

In any case, a lot of work ahead for you.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782726 08/27/19 3:28 am
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Very nice raf! How does she go and handle now?

Last edited by Psychopasta; 08/27/19 3:29 am.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782727 08/27/19 3:36 am
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Yep, I think the chances of change the fluids and fire her up are pretty slim. Here's a bit more:

Closeup of the exhaust going into the cylinder head:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Spring removed:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Remove this one bolt:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Off it comes! One spring, one bolt:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

same on the other side, of course. Peek-a-boo:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782733 08/27/19 5:09 am
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By the fact there is no raised pad on the left hand front engine lug I would say the frames a 65/66 (65 frame number on headstock, 66 frame number on engine lug. From 67 the pig had a squared off section for stamping on)

Motor looks like 69, got all the later features but with 5/16 barrel studs, some ones fitted a later outer timing cover on there.

Still it’s all a very good start for a project.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782769 08/27/19 4:43 pm
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Thanks Allen. I'm pleased with it, and am looking forward to getting started. I bought it as-is, from a previous owner who didn't know much more about it than I did. My goal is to turn it into a nice little runner, but not a concours or period-correct thing.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782770 08/27/19 4:49 pm
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Best way to be, if you have something a little more unique or special then it’s nice to keep it stock but it’s always much more fun to make it as something which suits you, you’ll also get more pleasure from it that way.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783542 09/05/19 9:16 pm
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So here's my current thinking on the Lightning project.

My goal is the minimum restore, get her running and roadworthy. To that end, and in no particular order:

1. Top end service, check valve clearance and give it a general once over. I don't want to ask any questions I might not like the answer to, so I won't strip the engine down right now. I'll swap out the valve springs in any case, but won't go further than I obviously need to when the head's open.

My only uncertainly is the oil pump. I'm OCD about oil, and am thinking about the SRM oil pump. Can I install that with the engine still in the frame?

2. Wiring. I have zero confidence in 52 year old wiring, so I'm going to rewire it. I'll also make it 12V negative earth like the good Lord intended, and fit electronic ignition. I'm leaning towards Pazon but would be open to advice and experience from the forum.I'll need to add indicators cos I don't like not having them, and rebuild the headlamp shell and idiot light. Rather tha upgrade the alternator I'll use LED bulbs to minimize the draw from the system

3. I'm going to rebuild the front forks, just so I know what I've got. The forks are Betor units, and I don't know much about them so I want to have a good look and see what I've got.

4. I'll also rebuild both brakes and just see what condition the wheels are in. I'll swap out bearings as a matter of course.

5. The frame is in good shape, and doesn't need repainting, so I'll restrict myself to pulling the swing arm and changing the bearings.

6. New Hagon shocks, new tires, new exhaust, new handlebars.

7. General clean up and paint with VHT Gloss epoxy paint.

Any thoughts, experiences, suggestions?

Last edited by Psychopasta; 09/05/19 9:18 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783543 09/05/19 9:49 pm
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That one port (drive side?) looks like it has a look of oil in it. Maybe a badly leaking exhaust guide?


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783545 09/05/19 10:03 pm
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Nick H Online Content
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Maybe you'll get lucky and get one of the later iron oil pumps. Said to be better. Informative post here by CBS:
https://www.classicbritishspares.com/blogs/news/the-bsa-a65-oil-pump-journal-1962-1972
I bought a '67 BSA A65 Lightning on eBay and while it looks nice and the price was good, the motor had no pistons, clutch, alternator, oil pump.
All stuff that is inside and one can't tell they weren't there! That's my next project.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Nick H; 09/05/19 10:05 pm.

1966 BSA Lightning
1967 Triumph "Choppa"
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783550 09/05/19 11:23 pm
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@Htown, yeah, the top end may need some work. @Nick H, yes the bike looks great but I didn't realize the engine cases were hollow...

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783552 09/05/19 11:37 pm
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Before I spent the money on an SRM pump, I'd try to gauge the amount of wear on the timing side bush. Mike Brown shows how to in this book.
https://www.amazon.com/Building-Bud...567726469&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmr0


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
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Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783553 09/05/19 11:40 pm
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gota say Psy you have a seriously good camera..........superb close up detail


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: htown] #783559 09/06/19 12:32 am
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Originally Posted by htown
Before I spent the money on an SRM pump, I'd try to gauge the amount of wear on the timing side bush. Mike Brown shows how to in this book.
https://www.amazon.com/Building-Bud...567726469&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmr0


+1.

A complete waste of money if the bush is worn.
If you can get bigger than a 1.5-2 thou feeler in the bush/journal then a new bush is needed.
Stick a return line oil filter on it as a matter of course.
Chances are the existing pump would be ok if rebuilt properly.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783569 09/06/19 1:25 am
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Good point, thanks

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783600 09/06/19 1:01 pm
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Sounds a bit backwards approach to me. What good is a bike with new valve springs (?!?) and great brakes, suspension, tires, electrical, and wheel bearings if the motor is shot? The amount of oil in the exhaust port is way too much to be a simple leaky exhaust guide. That sticky stuff has actually been through the combustion chamber. Note that the pressure in the exhaust chamber is up and out so any oil getting pulled in would be in the pipes, not around the valve.

At a minimum, pull the head and primary cover. If it were me, I'd also pull the barrels to check rings and big-end play, and re-ring if within specs. Check the state of the mechanical bits, like pistons/cylinders, valves, bearing/bush. The biggest unknown on these bikes tends to be the sludge trap, and that can't be checked without a full teardown, so you'll be taking a chance regardless.

If it isn't too bad, fix the minimum needed to fire it up and listen for weird noises. Keep in mind that any the motor may have sat for a long time and may have debris just waiting for heat and fresh detergent oil to break free and cause havoc. Once you have a working motor, now's the time to build a bike around it.

Lastly, the right-side case is definitely 69-and-up. I haven't seen a good picture of the primary side to know if it's matching. If the engine is a A65LA with a Y in the VIN, it's not a '67. There were a ton of changes that happened to the engine cases between 1968 and 1970, including different threads on the hardware and different sized studs. You don't have a VIN on the frame... do you have a title for this? Don't go too far before you know if this thing is legal.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783602 09/06/19 1:44 pm
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Adam M. Offline
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Originally Posted by Psychopasta
So here's my current thinking on the Lightning project.

My goal is the minimum restore, get her running and roadworthy. To that end, and in no particular order:

1. Top end service, check valve clearance and give it a general once over. I don't want to ask any questions I might not like the answer to, so I won't strip the engine down right now. I'll swap out the valve springs in any case, but won't go further than I obviously need to when the head's open.

My only uncertainly is the oil pump. I'm OCD about oil, and am thinking about the SRM oil pump. Can I install that with the engine still in the frame?

2. Wiring. I have zero confidence in 52 year old wiring, so I'm going to rewire it. I'll also make it 12V negative earth like the good Lord intended, and fit electronic ignition. I'm leaning towards Pazon but would be open to advice and experience from the forum.I'll need to add indicators cos I don't like not having them, and rebuild the headlamp shell and idiot light. Rather tha upgrade the alternator I'll use LED
>
Any thoughts, experiences, suggestions?


Mhm, I expect a hard working A65 engine without a proper oil filter to be worn down and your engine looks like it is.
It needs proper rebuild if you want to have a reliable bike in a future. Stock or old pattern parts don't have a very long life in those engines, exhaust valves and guides were normally done after 2 seasons, I believe they will be done after a season of track racing.
The head needs higher quality valves and guides ( Kibblewhite in a US ), I'm pretty sure your timing bush and con rod's shells need replacing as well.
I'm curious about a head in this bike, is it a small port or later big port head?
Small port is worth to have, here have it works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UEJ-4I_QnQ

Additional full flow engine oil filter is a must to protect your investment in a bike, but I don't agree with not upgrading an alternator, when prices of 1 phase and 3 phase stators are the same. You need only a new stator and regulator / rectifier which you would need with 1 phase alternator anyway. Pazon for ignition is OK, I don't think your Betor front end needs anything but changing oil.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783607 09/06/19 2:36 pm
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Thanks for the suggestions guys. The comment about valve springs was that the bike has sat for 20 years, and so one of the springs has been under compression all that time. It's generally accepted that valve springs are consumables to be renewed with the barn find class. All I meant was, I expect to replace those, the rest is wait and see.

Most of the earlier advice I got was to do a minimum of work until the bike is rideable, but as time has gone on the majority opinion seems to be that a full engine teardown is needed :-) I suspect that when I do open the engine up, one thing will lead to another ohno

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783893 09/10/19 2:00 am
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Ah, British bikes...they put the side stand on the left, and the oil tank drain hole on the side at the right, so you have to lean the bike over and hold it the other way to the side stand in order to get all the oil out. Love it.

That gripe aside, the 'filter', if I can call it that looked fairly clean:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and it was time to get the bike up on the ramp. It doesn't have a center stand, so I just used a scissor jack at the rear of the frame, plus a wheel chock and some tie-downs to keep it all solid:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Here's a better close-up of the oily port:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the dry one:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Current plan is get the top off and have a good look, then get the barrels off and have a good look, and then get the rest of the engine out of the frame for rebuilding. Stay tuned!

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784021 09/12/19 4:33 am
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Wife was out with her boozy mates tonight so I got a little Bitsa time. Took off the air filters and carbs:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

On the RHS the bolts were so tight that the stud unscrewed from the cylinder head instead:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Red loctite on the carb mounting bolts:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

LHS one came off without any trouble but I noticed its tickler is gone:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the throttle cable has corroded solidly into the carb slide:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Soaked it in WD40 and left it for another day.

Sump plate came off:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and judging from the sheer volume of oil, I'd say it was wet-sumping. Seriously, more came out the sump than the tank! Filter looked OK, as did the oil itself:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784035 09/12/19 9:19 am
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With the sump plate off you can get a crude indication of crank end float by prying the flywheel left / right, better still if you put a clock gauge on the crank end, primary side is easiest at this stage. The seized carb stud is a crude piece of screwed rod, the carb end should have a finer thread.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784306 09/15/19 1:09 am
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Good point Gavin, I'll try that soon

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784308 09/15/19 1:13 am
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So today was mainly about removing all the stuff so I can get clear access to the engine. My plan now is to do a full rebuild of the motor, so it has to come out of the frame, and a bunch of stuff has to move to allow that. The good news is that soaking the bike in WD40 when I first got it, and a few more times since, seems to have worked well, and I had no problems with undoing any bolts. Yet.

Anyway, off with all this:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Mr. Frodo! Thaat's a left-'anded Whitworth right there!
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and off with this:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Lets the whole brake chain come off as a piece. Interestingly, there seems to be no bolt for this to screw into, and it seems to have been held in place by the rust. Held quite well, I might add.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Then another left'aanded Whitworth:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Removing the clutch inspection cover revealed some fine swarf-like material
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Urgh. With the footpeg off, I could see a crack in the sidecover that had been masked by the footpeg:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
The bigger ding I could see before, and I'm OK with, but I don't like the crack. Getting the cover off shows it's been supported from the rear by some JB Weld or similar:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Would welcome opinions on whether this is serviceable or scrap.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784309 09/15/19 1:22 am
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Looking at the clutch, it seems that the clutch springs were not done up with the correct tool, or even a chisel with a divot ground in it
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
The screws are flush with where you could get it with an ordinary screwdriver, or a smaller one used on just one side with a hammer used to drift the screw round. Oh well. Everything else look OK:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
On the other side, the timing cover came off easily
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and looks fine at first glance. I pulled out the bodged wiring loom, ignition coils and mounting brackets, and removed all the oil lines from the tank. Then removed the screws holding the toolholder in:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Both the oil tank and toolholder are now free, but will not come out until I remove the rear fender I think. Then, 'twas beer o'clock and tools were downed for the day

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784313 09/15/19 1:38 am
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See if you can get hold of a late primary chain cover, they have the window for timing the bike.
It would be correct for the engine year too.
The old heap has been dropped at some stage so the dinged primary is standard, put a welding tip
on it and it'll be like a banana unless the bloke who's doing it is good. JB weld is fine in there if done
reasonably well.
Love the points wiring lol.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784337 09/15/19 10:03 am
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gavin eisler Offline
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A couple of tips.
Leave the gearchange return spring mounted, do not disturb this unless you suspect the change is not clean in both directions, the spring is mounted on an eccentric which is turned to tune the change action, if its good dont mess with it.

The clutch plate stack is very worn, as shown by the amount of free threads on the adjuster, budget for new steels and frictions for the rebuild, the swarf is most likely from the adjuster screw chewing into the inspection cap, I have had cracked cases successfully welded before , SRM did the fix, best get someone who is V competent for this, or stick with the JB weld repair. Nicks suggestion is a better fix. giving easy access to the strobe marks.

You might want to re assemble the rear wheel and brake after removing the oil tank, its very useful to use the brake when undoing transmission fasteners.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784339 09/15/19 1:11 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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Or use a dry clutch and not worry about the repair. If using an epoxy like Jb weld, you need all the oil removed from the case, before application. Using a dremel sander will help remove any varnishing before applying, but once it’s on it will give a good seal for a very long time.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784370 09/15/19 7:48 pm
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Thanks guys. I know what you mean Gavin, but the whole thing is going to get stripped down.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784418 Yesterday at 12:50 AM
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lookin at the pics, you have the later 3 spring clutch, the earlier flat top ball type oil pressure relief valve, a V early primary chaincase with no strobe plate, late 70 or 71 timing chest with the ball ramp clutch actuator and adjustable gear change return spring, late 6CA type points. The case fasteners dont look too bad , not too many signs of butchery, apart from the points wire.And that looks better than the usual bodge.
Guessing that the core of the motor is 70 and the old primary replaced an early prang victim, probably what claimed the original front end

Last edited by gavin eisler; Yesterday at 12:53 AM.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784421 Yesterday at 01:03 AM
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But apart from the clutch, the oil relief valve, the primary chaincase, the timing chest, the clutch actuator, the gear change return spring and the points, it's all original, right?

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784422 Yesterday at 01:26 AM
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Yeah , forsure , still a good bike, most of the wrong stuff is better.

Last edited by gavin eisler; Yesterday at 01:27 AM.

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Cagiva Raptor 650
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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784423 Yesterday at 01:30 AM
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MarcB Online Content
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Nothing on this motor indicates '67 to me. That's a '70 on both sides... Except for the early primary cover.

The raised VIN pad and cast-in stator mount proves that.

Hardware holding the primary and timing covers will be different between 67 and 70 so tread carefully when repaving hardware.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784424 Yesterday at 01:41 AM
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gavin eisler Offline
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This is a good time to check crank end float, remove the 4 sump plate bits , pry the flywheels left /right, if you hear a clunk, try to measure it with a clock gauge on the end of the shaft at the primary , this is good to know, and will help later. It should be close to FA , which is in laymans terms 0.0015 to 0.003 ", or put poritry , just perceptible.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: MarcB] #784448 Yesterday at 08:13 AM
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Allan Gill Offline
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Originally Posted by MarcB
Nothing on this motor indicates '67 to me. That's a '70 on both sides... Except for the early primary cover.

The raised VIN pad and cast-in stator mount proves that.




Not really, cast stator mounts were used from 68, and late 68 build motors (NC) had raised number pads. But since it’s fitted with 69 and earlier barrels then I’d say it’s a 69


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Allan Gill] #784466 Yesterday at 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Not really, cast stator mounts were used from 68, and late 68 build motors (NC) had raised number pads. But since it’s fitted with 69 and earlier barrels then I’d say it’s a 69

Still not a '67. Allan, do you know if the '69 cases had the raised pad without the BSA imprints in them? I have a set of cases that match this (small studs, no imprints).

Originally Posted by Psychopasta
But apart from the clutch, the oil relief valve, the primary chaincase, the timing chest, the clutch actuator, the gear change return spring and the points, it's all original, right?


I think you were joking there, but apart from the timing cover it appears to be '69 based on the barrel studs.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: MarcB] #784477 Yesterday at 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MarcB
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Not really, cast stator mounts were used from 68, and late 68 build motors (NC) had raised number pads. But since it’s fitted with 69 and earlier barrels then I’d say it’s a 69

Still not a '67. Allan, do you know if the '69 cases had the raised pad without the BSA imprints in them? I have a set of cases that match this (small studs, no imprints).


Far from it (from being a 67)

There were different variations on the castings around that point.

The first lot were not machined at all, and the numbers stamped straight on the casting.

There were others where the whole area below the casting was also raised, but the area for the numbers was machined and had the BSA backing stamp,

then the more common type which is like the first but a machined face with backing stamp.


All in 69'

More sadly the "TA/LA -Y" numbers were used regardless of 69 or 70. Some even marked up with an X but I don't think Ive seen more than 1 (that would have been a set of cases on a jumble somewhere)


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784499 Yesterday at 07:02 PM
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This is a Y numbered engine (can't recall ifY or -Y, will check)

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784563 9 hours ago
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So I got the rocker cover off today

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Also took off the points to show the advance/retard
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Not much to report, looks clean enough. In other news, the middle engine mounting bolt is MIA:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784567 8 hours ago
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Gary E Online Content
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The rear fender looks to be a Hornet/Wasp style. Hard to source those. It has value.


1967 BSA Wasp
1967 BSA Hornet (West Coast Model)
1967 BSA Hornet (East Coast Model)
1968 BSA Firebird Scrambler
1968 BSA Spitfire Mark IV
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784587 4 hours ago
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And it's in great shape too, Gary. It should clean up well

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