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Barn Find Beeza #782227 08/22/19 2:49 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I picked up this A65L last weekend. It is a 1967 model and has sat for 20 years in a neighbor's garage. All I've done is give it a good wash and a visual inspection. The engine turns over on the kickstart, but I have not attempted anything on it yet.

I'm curious about the front fork. The PO said something about Betor forks, but didn't know much (anything) about them. Does anyone know about them?

Also, if the eagle-eyed notice anything about the bike, I'd be grateful for any/all comments. Although I'm familiar with bikes from the 80s on, I know nothing about BSAs of this period.

Last edited by Psychopasta; 08/22/19 2:52 pm.
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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782231 08/22/19 3:14 pm
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kommando Online Content
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Stay away from jet washing old bikes in water in future, they are not sealed very well so the water is now lurking inside. An oily rag would be better, cleans just as well and leaves a protective layer. For now leave it out in the hot sun so it dries off, you may need to remove some covers to get all the water out.

Your front wheel is BSA but the fork legs and triple tree are from something else

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782234 08/22/19 3:26 pm
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Mazzochi?

Engine is 70 or later, Although looking at the barrel it could even be 69' (later barrels have bigger studs with 12pt nut mounting, the barrels are cutaway on the bottom fin to accomodate this.... pre 90 dont)


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782269 08/22/19 10:06 pm
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TT100s , decent forks, the good 8" single leading shoe front brake , a well worn saddle , 2 into one pipes and later Concentrics with a twin pull maybe Tomasellii twistgrip ( would have been monos in 67). As Allan says a 70 or 71 motor with the early no fins rocker cover , head must be 70 or earlier , twin carbs no tach drive , possibly A65 T with a lightning head Someone enjoyed this bike. All good mods , could be a fun bike to ride. The shocks look like early Jap, change them .

Last edited by gavin eisler; 08/22/19 10:10 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782294 08/23/19 3:48 am
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wow, that's a barn find?? It's way better than mine! Good one!

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782344 08/23/19 4:13 pm
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+1 for the fun looking and riding bike, Betor forks were more advance and better working than 67 originals ( really crude ), carbs will be in need of cleaning, charging system and electric loom has to be checked, compression is probably low, but nothing good trashing on the road wouldn't cure. Seat has to be rebuild with a new foam and probably cover.
What are your plans for a bike ?

Last edited by Adam M.; 08/23/19 4:14 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782347 08/23/19 4:37 pm
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Lannis Online Content
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Originally Posted by Psychopasta
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I picked up this A65L last weekend. It is a 1967 model and has sat for 20 years in a neighbor's garage. All I've done is give it a good wash and a visual inspection. The engine turns over on the kickstart, but I have not attempted anything on it yet.

I'm curious about the front fork. The PO said something about Betor forks, but didn't know much (anything) about them. Does anyone know about them?

Also, if the eagle-eyed notice anything about the bike, I'd be grateful for any/all comments. Although I'm familiar with bikes from the 80s on, I know nothing about BSAs of this period.


It's definitely a "Bitsa"; the forks, rocker cover, etc show that, so that sort of frees you up to do what you like with it. I'd make a close-to-stock rider out of it if it were mine. Get the frame and engine numbers so you know what parts books to order from.

If it were sitting in my garage right now, I'd take the primary cover and outer timing cover off and look and see what's in there. I'd do a leak-down check on the cylinders, adjust the valves, I'd pull the sump plate and do a crank end-play check, and would pull the oil tank and get the 20 years worth of sludge out of it.

If the crank isn't loose, the cylinders have reasonable compression, and the chains and such look good, I'd fill it up with oil and gas and enjoy it; otherwise, fix what's worn and go from there.

Lannis


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782414 08/24/19 1:52 am
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Hey Lannis, are you the same Lannis who posts on WildGuzzi?

Last edited by Psychopasta; 08/24/19 2:21 pm. Reason: grammar Nazi
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782416 08/24/19 1:58 am
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Thanks everyone!

My plans are pretty close to what Lannis said. I need to get the wheels off and look at the brakes, as I know nothing about drums anymore. I'll also pull the forks, which I believe are Betor, and just see what they are. I'm imagining at the least they'll need new seals and oil, but I just have no idea what I'll find. It also needs speedo, horn, headlamp...all the boring stuff.

I'm looking at a fairly minimal restoration, but you know how it goes once you start poking and prodding.

- Pasta

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782417 08/24/19 2:23 am
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I'm surprised no one has brought up the old sludge trap bugaboo. Ok, there's a sludge trap in the crankshaft. If the bike was run a lot with dirty oil, and/or stored for a long period of time with dirty oil in it, particularly in a cold damp environment, the sludge trap could be full of sludge. The sludge trap runs through the crankpins, so if it is clogged, oil will not reach the big end bearings.

What you find when you remove the sump plate from the bottom of the crankcase will be an indication of how the bike was maintained. If it looks pretty good, you may decide to take a chance and run it as is. Unfortunately, clearing the sludge trap requires a complete engine tear-down.

I agree this looks like a fun project. The front forks are a nice upgrade, performance-wise; the originals leave a lot to be desired. In addition to what's already been said, the rocker cover is pre-'67, and the fuel tank is post-'67.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782422 08/24/19 3:28 am
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Thanks Mark. Seems to me that a sludge trap that needs the engine to be torn down to get at defeats the point of a sludge trap. You'd ideally be able to clean it without the engine teardown. But what do I know?

I'm getting used to the idea that the engine may need to be torn down anyway, but I would like to get her running first so I at least know what sounds she makes.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782444 08/24/19 1:53 pm
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Nick H Online Content
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I tore down a perfectly fine Triumph to check the sludge trap only to find it perfectly clean and no witness marks on the crank to indicate that it had ever been touched. Peace of mind.
Someone commented to me that in here in the US we use bikes recreationally unlike in Britain where they are more commonly the primary transportation. Helps to know some history of the bike but if not, I wouldn't take chances.


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782448 08/24/19 2:12 pm
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Hey Nick, thanks for that. I'm British originally, now in the good ol'US and you're right about bikes being used as transport, but only bikes of this vintage. Things like a Lightning would definitely have been working beasts, and not garage queens dripping in chrome :-)

Last edited by Psychopasta; 08/24/19 2:23 pm. Reason: Typo
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: gavin eisler] #782450 08/24/19 2:19 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
TT100s , decent forks, the good 8" single leading shoe front brake , a well worn saddle , 2 into one pipes and later concentrics with a twin pull maybe Tomasellii twistgrip ( would have been monos in 67). As Allan says a 70 or 71 motor with the early no fins rocker cover , head must be 70 or earlier , twin carbs no tach drive , possibly A65 T with a lightning head Someone enjoyed this bike. All good mods , could be a fun bike to ride. The shocks look like early Jap, change them .


Thanks Gavin, and Allan.

The engine number pulls up as 67, so I'm assuming that this engine has been heavily modded. Judging from the looks of the bike, and the fact that it has no instruments, the choke cables are gone etc, I think its primary use was not on the road but flattracking and general hooning around on.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782451 08/24/19 2:27 pm
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As its a Y it may be one of those 69's with a 67 number and the engine is not heavily modded.

Read this thread

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=523437&page=29

Note there are Y bikes and -Y bikes and not all are the same.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782462 08/24/19 5:43 pm
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Certain elements of the motor are certainly 1970, eg the top entry clutch cable and what looks like bi hex barrel flange nuts on 3/8" studs. Read the thread kommando linked.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782465 08/24/19 6:19 pm
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Indeed! Thank you very much guys, lots of reading and learning ahead of me.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782569 08/25/19 6:47 pm
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I have a question on compression testing. The engine turns over on the kickstart, but does not run yet. Should I put some oil in the top of the cylinders to help seal the bores when I test the engine compression?

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782570 08/25/19 6:51 pm
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Nick H Online Content
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It will most likely give a higher reading than without the oil but most people say cold compressions tests are worth much.


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782571 08/25/19 6:51 pm
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Nick H Online Content
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It will most likely give a higher reading than without the oil but most people say cold compressions tests aren't worth much.


1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782574 08/25/19 7:08 pm
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Originally Posted by Psychopasta
Hey Lannis, are you the same Lannis who posts on WildGuzzi?


As far as I know, I'm like Tigger : I'm The Only One!

Lannis


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782578 08/25/19 7:31 pm
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I thought it must be you. I'm the same Psychopasta as over there...

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782581 08/25/19 8:41 pm
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Originally Posted by Psychopasta
Thanks Mark. Seems to me that a sludge trap that needs the engine to be torn down to get at defeats the point of a sludge trap.


When these things were built, the expected time-to-overhaul was 10-15K miles, 20K at most. With proper maintenance, the sludge trap would not fill up in that span. They were also not planning on bikes sitting idle for 20 years.

The sitting idle is a big part of the problem. In one engine I tore down, the sludge in the trap had the consistency of a wax crayon, which can only have occurred from sitting over a long period of time, possibly in an adverse environment.

But again, take a reading on what you find in the sump; if it's not excessively grungy, it may be safe to run the engine as is.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782590 08/25/19 10:13 pm
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Fair point Mark. I have a feeling the engine will need to be torn down. It looks like the bike has been well (ab)used as a tracker. I'll be draining the fluids and having a looksee soon.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782686 08/26/19 8:06 pm
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Took the tank and seat off to get a closer look. The old girl does look a bit knackered:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and can you believe it? No toolkit!
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

But basically sound. I do not like the exhausts that it has. Note how they are held onto the head:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the way they go below the frame rails:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

You can see why it has no center stand, and I'm going to have to remove the exhausts in order to be able to support the bike on its frame. Nice use of a piece of wire to keep them connected!

Next thing: I can find no evidence of a frame number:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Took off the side panel. I have three of the four Oddie screws
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Does anyone have any idea why it has three condensors?
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

In other news, the tank is in good shape. A few small dents, any suggestions fro removing them?

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Though all the mounting rubbers are more depressed than Marvin the paranoid android. All thoughts and observations gratefully received

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782696 08/26/19 11:15 pm
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raf940 Online Content
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might as well take the whole thing apart and start from square one do one piece at a time allow several thousand bucks and many months of work it will be fun!! here before and after of my bitsa rig

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]anthropology careers and salaries
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Last edited by raf940; 08/26/19 11:17 pm.

1972 Triumph T120
1968 BSA A65
1968 MGB Roadster
1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
1969 Honda Mini Trail
1939 farmall f30 tractor
2004 Honda Shadow Aero
1972 BSA Thunderbolt
1975 yamaha xs650b
1972 Norton commando
2 olive drab WWII military bicycle replicas
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782711 08/27/19 1:18 am
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Wow Psychopasta, how did the first picture look so good? Yeah, like Raf said, you're looking at a bit by bit resto...

Condensers: Someone used a 3-pack off a Trident or a Rocket 3. Note only two are connected.

So it's not a 2-into-1 exhaust. The stock header pipes also just push into the head, but they are secured by the frame mounts and either a cross-brace, or a crossover pipe on later models. In lieu of these supports, the springs are required to hold the pipes in place. This is a common racing adaptation.

'67 models had the serial number on the gusset around the headstock, left side.










Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782720 08/27/19 2:47 am
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what MarkZ said is pretty much what I thought (about how did 1st pic look so good)

when I first saw it I thought ........wow that tank looks good but on 2nd batch of pics now I see

Its a full tear down job for sure ........you can guarantee all the seals will be gone and going by the amount of rust on nuts ect all the motor internals wont be so good either ........good start point for a restoration however

what you need to decide before you start is what sort of standard you want to finish it to ........a parts books restoration would be a money pit........everything re-plated ect will add up fast.......but hey its a good bike worth doing to what ever standard you decide.


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782725 08/27/19 3:24 am
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That frame doesn't appear to match the motor. That's a set of 69-and-up cases, based on the shifting mechanism in the timing cover and the oil pressure fitting in the front. If it's a Y bike then it's a 1970 motor. It's possible it was put in a 67 frame because of the A65LA VIN confusion, and the vin rubbed (or filed) off to hide the mismatched numbers.

In any case, a lot of work ahead for you.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782726 08/27/19 3:28 am
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Very nice raf! How does she go and handle now?

Last edited by Psychopasta; 08/27/19 3:29 am.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782727 08/27/19 3:36 am
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Yep, I think the chances of change the fluids and fire her up are pretty slim. Here's a bit more:

Closeup of the exhaust going into the cylinder head:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Spring removed:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Remove this one bolt:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Off it comes! One spring, one bolt:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

same on the other side, of course. Peek-a-boo:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782733 08/27/19 5:09 am
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By the fact there is no raised pad on the left hand front engine lug I would say the frames a 65/66 (65 frame number on headstock, 66 frame number on engine lug. From 67 the pig had a squared off section for stamping on)

Motor looks like 69, got all the later features but with 5/16 barrel studs, some ones fitted a later outer timing cover on there.

Still it’s all a very good start for a project.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782769 08/27/19 4:43 pm
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Thanks Allen. I'm pleased with it, and am looking forward to getting started. I bought it as-is, from a previous owner who didn't know much more about it than I did. My goal is to turn it into a nice little runner, but not a concours or period-correct thing.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #782770 08/27/19 4:49 pm
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Best way to be, if you have something a little more unique or special then it’s nice to keep it stock but it’s always much more fun to make it as something which suits you, you’ll also get more pleasure from it that way.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783542 09/05/19 9:16 pm
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So here's my current thinking on the Lightning project.

My goal is the minimum restore, get her running and roadworthy. To that end, and in no particular order:

1. Top end service, check valve clearance and give it a general once over. I don't want to ask any questions I might not like the answer to, so I won't strip the engine down right now. I'll swap out the valve springs in any case, but won't go further than I obviously need to when the head's open.

My only uncertainly is the oil pump. I'm OCD about oil, and am thinking about the SRM oil pump. Can I install that with the engine still in the frame?

2. Wiring. I have zero confidence in 52 year old wiring, so I'm going to rewire it. I'll also make it 12V negative earth like the good Lord intended, and fit electronic ignition. I'm leaning towards Pazon but would be open to advice and experience from the forum.I'll need to add indicators cos I don't like not having them, and rebuild the headlamp shell and idiot light. Rather tha upgrade the alternator I'll use LED bulbs to minimize the draw from the system

3. I'm going to rebuild the front forks, just so I know what I've got. The forks are Betor units, and I don't know much about them so I want to have a good look and see what I've got.

4. I'll also rebuild both brakes and just see what condition the wheels are in. I'll swap out bearings as a matter of course.

5. The frame is in good shape, and doesn't need repainting, so I'll restrict myself to pulling the swing arm and changing the bearings.

6. New Hagon shocks, new tires, new exhaust, new handlebars.

7. General clean up and paint with VHT Gloss epoxy paint.

Any thoughts, experiences, suggestions?

Last edited by Psychopasta; 09/05/19 9:18 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783543 09/05/19 9:49 pm
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That one port (drive side?) looks like it has a look of oil in it. Maybe a badly leaking exhaust guide?


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783545 09/05/19 10:03 pm
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Maybe you'll get lucky and get one of the later iron oil pumps. Said to be better. Informative post here by CBS:
https://www.classicbritishspares.com/blogs/news/the-bsa-a65-oil-pump-journal-1962-1972
I bought a '67 BSA A65 Lightning on eBay and while it looks nice and the price was good, the motor had no pistons, clutch, alternator, oil pump.
All stuff that is inside and one can't tell they weren't there! That's my next project.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Nick H; 09/05/19 10:05 pm.

1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783550 09/05/19 11:23 pm
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@Htown, yeah, the top end may need some work. @Nick H, yes the bike looks great but I didn't realize the engine cases were hollow...

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783552 09/05/19 11:37 pm
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Before I spent the money on an SRM pump, I'd try to gauge the amount of wear on the timing side bush. Mike Brown shows how to in this book.
https://www.amazon.com/Building-Bud...567726469&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmr0


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783553 09/05/19 11:40 pm
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Ignoramus Online Content
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gota say Psy you have a seriously good camera..........superb close up detail


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: htown] #783559 09/06/19 12:32 am
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Originally Posted by htown
Before I spent the money on an SRM pump, I'd try to gauge the amount of wear on the timing side bush. Mike Brown shows how to in this book.
https://www.amazon.com/Building-Bud...567726469&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmr0


+1.

A complete waste of money if the bush is worn.
If you can get bigger than a 1.5-2 thou feeler in the bush/journal then a new bush is needed.
Stick a return line oil filter on it as a matter of course.
Chances are the existing pump would be ok if rebuilt properly.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783569 09/06/19 1:25 am
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Good point, thanks

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783600 09/06/19 1:01 pm
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Sounds a bit backwards approach to me. What good is a bike with new valve springs (?!?) and great brakes, suspension, tires, electrical, and wheel bearings if the motor is shot? The amount of oil in the exhaust port is way too much to be a simple leaky exhaust guide. That sticky stuff has actually been through the combustion chamber. Note that the pressure in the exhaust chamber is up and out so any oil getting pulled in would be in the pipes, not around the valve.

At a minimum, pull the head and primary cover. If it were me, I'd also pull the barrels to check rings and big-end play, and re-ring if within specs. Check the state of the mechanical bits, like pistons/cylinders, valves, bearing/bush. The biggest unknown on these bikes tends to be the sludge trap, and that can't be checked without a full teardown, so you'll be taking a chance regardless.

If it isn't too bad, fix the minimum needed to fire it up and listen for weird noises. Keep in mind that any the motor may have sat for a long time and may have debris just waiting for heat and fresh detergent oil to break free and cause havoc. Once you have a working motor, now's the time to build a bike around it.

Lastly, the right-side case is definitely 69-and-up. I haven't seen a good picture of the primary side to know if it's matching. If the engine is a A65LA with a Y in the VIN, it's not a '67. There were a ton of changes that happened to the engine cases between 1968 and 1970, including different threads on the hardware and different sized studs. You don't have a VIN on the frame... do you have a title for this? Don't go too far before you know if this thing is legal.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783602 09/06/19 1:44 pm
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Originally Posted by Psychopasta
So here's my current thinking on the Lightning project.

My goal is the minimum restore, get her running and roadworthy. To that end, and in no particular order:

1. Top end service, check valve clearance and give it a general once over. I don't want to ask any questions I might not like the answer to, so I won't strip the engine down right now. I'll swap out the valve springs in any case, but won't go further than I obviously need to when the head's open.

My only uncertainly is the oil pump. I'm OCD about oil, and am thinking about the SRM oil pump. Can I install that with the engine still in the frame?

2. Wiring. I have zero confidence in 52 year old wiring, so I'm going to rewire it. I'll also make it 12V negative earth like the good Lord intended, and fit electronic ignition. I'm leaning towards Pazon but would be open to advice and experience from the forum.I'll need to add indicators cos I don't like not having them, and rebuild the headlamp shell and idiot light. Rather tha upgrade the alternator I'll use LED
>
Any thoughts, experiences, suggestions?


Mhm, I expect a hard working A65 engine without a proper oil filter to be worn down and your engine looks like it is.
It needs proper rebuild if you want to have a reliable bike in a future. Stock or old pattern parts don't have a very long life in those engines, exhaust valves and guides were normally done after 2 seasons, I believe they will be done after a season of track racing.
The head needs higher quality valves and guides ( Kibblewhite in a US ), I'm pretty sure your timing bush and con rod's shells need replacing as well.
I'm curious about a head in this bike, is it a small port or later big port head?
Small port is worth to have, here have it works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UEJ-4I_QnQ

Additional full flow engine oil filter is a must to protect your investment in a bike, but I don't agree with not upgrading an alternator, when prices of 1 phase and 3 phase stators are the same. You need only a new stator and regulator / rectifier which you would need with 1 phase alternator anyway. Pazon for ignition is OK, I don't think your Betor front end needs anything but changing oil.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783607 09/06/19 2:36 pm
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Thanks for the suggestions guys. The comment about valve springs was that the bike has sat for 20 years, and so one of the springs has been under compression all that time. It's generally accepted that valve springs are consumables to be renewed with the barn find class. All I meant was, I expect to replace those, the rest is wait and see.

Most of the earlier advice I got was to do a minimum of work until the bike is rideable, but as time has gone on the majority opinion seems to be that a full engine teardown is needed :-) I suspect that when I do open the engine up, one thing will lead to another ohno

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #783893 09/10/19 2:00 am
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Ah, British bikes...they put the side stand on the left, and the oil tank drain hole on the side at the right, so you have to lean the bike over and hold it the other way to the side stand in order to get all the oil out. Love it.

That gripe aside, the 'filter', if I can call it that looked fairly clean:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and it was time to get the bike up on the ramp. It doesn't have a center stand, so I just used a scissor jack at the rear of the frame, plus a wheel chock and some tie-downs to keep it all solid:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Here's a better close-up of the oily port:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the dry one:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Current plan is get the top off and have a good look, then get the barrels off and have a good look, and then get the rest of the engine out of the frame for rebuilding. Stay tuned!

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784021 09/12/19 4:33 am
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Wife was out with her boozy mates tonight so I got a little Bitsa time. Took off the air filters and carbs:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

On the RHS the bolts were so tight that the stud unscrewed from the cylinder head instead:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Red loctite on the carb mounting bolts:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

LHS one came off without any trouble but I noticed its tickler is gone:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the throttle cable has corroded solidly into the carb slide:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Soaked it in WD40 and left it for another day.

Sump plate came off:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and judging from the sheer volume of oil, I'd say it was wet-sumping. Seriously, more came out the sump than the tank! Filter looked OK, as did the oil itself:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784035 09/12/19 9:19 am
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With the sump plate off you can get a crude indication of crank end float by prying the flywheel left / right, better still if you put a clock gauge on the crank end, primary side is easiest at this stage. The seized carb stud is a crude piece of screwed rod, the carb end should have a finer thread.


71 Devimead A65 750
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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784306 09/15/19 1:09 am
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Good point Gavin, I'll try that soon

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784308 09/15/19 1:13 am
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So today was mainly about removing all the stuff so I can get clear access to the engine. My plan now is to do a full rebuild of the motor, so it has to come out of the frame, and a bunch of stuff has to move to allow that. The good news is that soaking the bike in WD40 when I first got it, and a few more times since, seems to have worked well, and I had no problems with undoing any bolts. Yet.

Anyway, off with all this:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Mr. Frodo! Thaat's a left-'anded Whitworth right there!
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and off with this:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Lets the whole brake chain come off as a piece. Interestingly, there seems to be no bolt for this to screw into, and it seems to have been held in place by the rust. Held quite well, I might add.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Then another left'aanded Whitworth:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Removing the clutch inspection cover revealed some fine swarf-like material
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Urgh. With the footpeg off, I could see a crack in the sidecover that had been masked by the footpeg:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
The bigger ding I could see before, and I'm OK with, but I don't like the crack. Getting the cover off shows it's been supported from the rear by some JB Weld or similar:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Would welcome opinions on whether this is serviceable or scrap.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784309 09/15/19 1:22 am
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Looking at the clutch, it seems that the clutch springs were not done up with the correct tool, or even a chisel with a divot ground in it
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
The screws are flush with where you could get it with an ordinary screwdriver, or a smaller one used on just one side with a hammer used to drift the screw round. Oh well. Everything else look OK:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
On the other side, the timing cover came off easily
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and looks fine at first glance. I pulled out the bodged wiring loom, ignition coils and mounting brackets, and removed all the oil lines from the tank. Then removed the screws holding the toolholder in:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Both the oil tank and toolholder are now free, but will not come out until I remove the rear fender I think. Then, 'twas beer o'clock and tools were downed for the day

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784313 09/15/19 1:38 am
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See if you can get hold of a late primary chain cover, they have the window for timing the bike.
It would be correct for the engine year too.
The old heap has been dropped at some stage so the dinged primary is standard, put a welding tip
on it and it'll be like a banana unless the bloke who's doing it is good. JB weld is fine in there if done
reasonably well.
Love the points wiring lol.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784337 09/15/19 10:03 am
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A couple of tips.
Leave the gearchange return spring mounted, do not disturb this unless you suspect the change is not clean in both directions, the spring is mounted on an eccentric which is turned to tune the change action, if its good dont mess with it.

The clutch plate stack is very worn, as shown by the amount of free threads on the adjuster, budget for new steels and frictions for the rebuild, the swarf is most likely from the adjuster screw chewing into the inspection cap, I have had cracked cases successfully welded before , SRM did the fix, best get someone who is V competent for this, or stick with the JB weld repair. Nicks suggestion is a better fix. giving easy access to the strobe marks.

You might want to re assemble the rear wheel and brake after removing the oil tank, its very useful to use the brake when undoing transmission fasteners.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784339 09/15/19 1:11 pm
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Or use a dry clutch and not worry about the repair. If using an epoxy like Jb weld, you need all the oil removed from the case, before application. Using a dremel sander will help remove any varnishing before applying, but once it’s on it will give a good seal for a very long time.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784370 09/15/19 7:48 pm
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Thanks guys. I know what you mean Gavin, but the whole thing is going to get stripped down.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784418 09/16/19 12:50 am
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lookin at the pics, you have the later 3 spring clutch, the earlier flat top ball type oil pressure relief valve, a V early primary chaincase with no strobe plate, late 70 or 71 timing chest with the ball ramp clutch actuator and adjustable gear change return spring, late 6CA type points. The case fasteners dont look too bad , not too many signs of butchery, apart from the points wire.And that looks better than the usual bodge.
Guessing that the core of the motor is 70 and the old primary replaced an early prang victim, probably what claimed the original front end

Last edited by gavin eisler; 09/16/19 12:53 am.

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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784421 09/16/19 1:03 am
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But apart from the clutch, the oil relief valve, the primary chaincase, the timing chest, the clutch actuator, the gear change return spring and the points, it's all original, right?

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784422 09/16/19 1:26 am
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Yeah , forsure , still a good bike, most of the wrong stuff is better.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 09/16/19 1:27 am.

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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784423 09/16/19 1:30 am
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Nothing on this motor indicates '67 to me. That's a '70 on both sides... Except for the early primary cover.

The raised VIN pad and cast-in stator mount proves that.

Hardware holding the primary and timing covers will be different between 67 and 70 so tread carefully when repaving hardware.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784424 09/16/19 1:41 am
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This is a good time to check crank end float, remove the 4 sump plate bits , pry the flywheels left /right, if you hear a clunk, try to measure it with a clock gauge on the end of the shaft at the primary , this is good to know, and will help later. It should be close to FA , which is in laymans terms 0.0015 to 0.003 ", or put poritry , just perceptible.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: MarcB] #784448 09/16/19 8:13 am
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Originally Posted by MarcB
Nothing on this motor indicates '67 to me. That's a '70 on both sides... Except for the early primary cover.

The raised VIN pad and cast-in stator mount proves that.




Not really, cast stator mounts were used from 68, and late 68 build motors (NC) had raised number pads. But since it’s fitted with 69 and earlier barrels then I’d say it’s a 69


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Allan Gill] #784466 09/16/19 1:12 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Not really, cast stator mounts were used from 68, and late 68 build motors (NC) had raised number pads. But since it’s fitted with 69 and earlier barrels then I’d say it’s a 69

Still not a '67. Allan, do you know if the '69 cases had the raised pad without the BSA imprints in them? I have a set of cases that match this (small studs, no imprints).

Originally Posted by Psychopasta
But apart from the clutch, the oil relief valve, the primary chaincase, the timing chest, the clutch actuator, the gear change return spring and the points, it's all original, right?


I think you were joking there, but apart from the timing cover it appears to be '69 based on the barrel studs.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: MarcB] #784477 09/16/19 3:05 pm
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Originally Posted by MarcB
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Not really, cast stator mounts were used from 68, and late 68 build motors (NC) had raised number pads. But since it’s fitted with 69 and earlier barrels then I’d say it’s a 69

Still not a '67. Allan, do you know if the '69 cases had the raised pad without the BSA imprints in them? I have a set of cases that match this (small studs, no imprints).


Far from it (from being a 67)

There were different variations on the castings around that point.

The first lot were not machined at all, and the numbers stamped straight on the casting.

There were others where the whole area below the casting was also raised, but the area for the numbers was machined and had the BSA backing stamp,

then the more common type which is like the first but a machined face with backing stamp.


All in 69'

More sadly the "TA/LA -Y" numbers were used regardless of 69 or 70. Some even marked up with an X but I don't think Ive seen more than 1 (that would have been a set of cases on a jumble somewhere)


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784499 09/16/19 7:02 pm
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This is a Y numbered engine (can't recall ifY or -Y, will check)

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784563 09/17/19 9:44 am
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So I got the rocker cover off today

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Also took off the points to show the advance/retard
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Not much to report, looks clean enough. In other news, the middle engine mounting bolt is MIA:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784567 09/17/19 10:38 am
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The rear fender looks to be a Hornet/Wasp style. Hard to source those. It has value.


1967 BSA Wasp
1967 BSA Hornet (West Coast Model)
1967 BSA Hornet (East Coast Model)
1968 BSA Firebird Scrambler
1968 BSA Spitfire Mark IV
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784587 09/17/19 2:50 pm
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And it's in great shape too, Gary. It should clean up well

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784631 09/17/19 11:00 pm
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If it's suspected of being anything other than a '67 (which it is)
You can stop all the procrastination by having the bloody thing carbon dated.

OR just tell people it's an old beezer and ride it.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784634 09/17/19 11:19 pm
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Carbon dating for motorcycles...I'll bet Ichiban Moto has a video on that...

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784746 09/19/19 3:32 am
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OK chaps, I got the inner timing cover off with no real issues, but one oddity I wasn't expecting. The back of the advance/retard mechanism just doesn't want to be removed:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Once the inner cover was off, the intermediate gear is connected to it:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

How do I separate them? Just a puller, or something more subtle?

Also, here's some shots of the gear side now the cover is off:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Some fairly thick, gloopy gearbox oil there.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784754 09/19/19 7:20 am
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I’m not sure of the thread size but a bolt will be thread-able into the AAU (didn’t need stripping apart) once you’ve found a long one that fits. Grind about the first 5 threads off so that they go past the threads of the AAU, when tighten this it should push the AAU off the idler gear


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784757 09/19/19 8:53 am
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The workshop manual explains how to remove the AR mech.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784779 09/19/19 2:01 pm
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Looks like DD oil pump.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784780 09/19/19 2:10 pm
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Thanks guys. Adam, what is a DD oil pump?

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784782 09/19/19 2:37 pm
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This is the best pump BSA made with one exception - it still have zinc alloy body.
The last pumps from 1972 had cast iron body, much less susceptible for leaks between two parts of the body and much stiffer.

Last edited by Adam M.; 09/19/19 2:45 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784783 09/19/19 2:40 pm
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Nick H Online Content
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1966 BSA Lightning
(2) 1967 Triumph "Choppa"s
1974 Indian ME125
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784789 09/19/19 4:58 pm
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Thanks!

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784796 09/19/19 7:40 pm
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To separate the idler gear from the aa-unit, you can put approx 1∕2 inch of a suitable nail or bolt in the hole, and use the headlight fixing bolt as a puller.

Last edited by Ola; 09/19/19 7:40 pm.

There are no bosses in a technical discussion
(Doug Hele, 1919 - 2001)
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784879 09/20/19 7:56 pm
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Thanks all. Got the idler off just fine.

I have something else I'd like your advice on. On the clutch, I have the three retaining bolts

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and I have a tool for them from CBS. The top two respond just fine, but the third one, at the bottom, doesn't. The slots are pretty graunched up to begin with, but as I try to turn the screw I can feel the spring behind resist me until the tool loses purchase on the slot and slips out. The slot springs back to its original position. Any experience with this?

Last edited by Psychopasta; 09/20/19 7:57 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784883 09/20/19 8:28 pm
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The spring is wound is the same way a lock washer is... so it effectively "holds" the screw in place and bites as you try to undo it. Being a spring, it will twist in place and pop back the second you let go. You'll never to overcome the friction to get it undone.

Try putting a bit of weight against it as you undo it to prevent the tool from popping out. Once it starts it will be much easier.

The spring cups look pretty knackered on yours as well.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784884 09/20/19 8:57 pm
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Thanks. I can see drilling two small holes into this screw to give the tool more to bite into. I'm going to replace this with an SRM clutch so don't mind being a little destructive

Last edited by Psychopasta; 09/20/19 8:58 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784891 09/20/19 10:17 pm
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Drilling those two small indents let me get the screw off
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
The other two came off, and the cover came off complete with the cover over the cush drive rubbers:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
so I removed the rubbers as well. You can see two broken-off studs still in the clutch basket:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
I was able to get the clutch nut off with an air-powered impact driver, just like Mike Brown says in his book.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784896 09/20/19 11:19 pm
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What does the other side of the end plate that fell off look like?


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784904 09/21/19 12:37 am
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Like so:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784938 09/21/19 9:37 am
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that looks pretty unworn, just unlucky with the broken studs.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784940 09/21/19 9:49 am
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It's got an aftermarket one piece bronze timing side main bush in it.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784942 09/21/19 10:30 am
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Once you get the clutch in bits compare the wear on the inner cush drive end plate to the relatively unworn outer, thats where all the slop tends to appear , you can see the spider wear marks in the pics. IME its cheaper in the long run to fit a complete new cush drive rather than try to repair old worn items.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784966 09/21/19 3:45 pm
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Thanks very much guys, I appreciate the help. I know nothing about BSAs of this vintage, so I'm learning as I go.

@NickL, do you mean the bushing the pinion is in, or some other:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784974 09/21/19 5:01 pm
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Nick means the large bush behind the crank end pinion. The nut securing the pinion and worm drive is a Left hand Thread, to pull the pinion you will probably have to grind down the claws of a small puller to get into the notches at the rear of the pinion. Do not be tempted to pull the gear through the bush, that guarantees destruction. before you do that check for up and down play in the bush mentioned , more than 0.0015 " is not good. The 70 in front of the casting mark, suggests 1970 cases , could be wrong though.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784975 09/21/19 5:06 pm
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The timing chest looks pretty clean in side, by comparison my motor has a load more staining and varnish on the inner surfaces, could be its barely run since last opened up. What threads are the case 1/4" diameter fasteners, fine ( BSF) or coarse , UNC?


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784988 09/21/19 7:41 pm
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Something else to check at this stage, beneath the main shaft of the gearbox there is the layshaft, before stripping any further check the end float of the layshaft, it should be " just perceptible" or about 2- 3 thou if it clunks measure how much there is so you can shim correctly on the rebuild, this one small step will make or mar the gear change.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784989 09/21/19 8:07 pm
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OK, so here's where I got to today. I'll go back and make the measurements Gavin suggested. Alternator and clutch are now full off, with no major issues. Hand pressure with a pickle fork got the rotor off:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and here's the removed assembly
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the rotor passes the toolbox test:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Last edited by Psychopasta; 09/21/19 8:11 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784994 09/21/19 9:21 pm
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Be nice to the rotor , keep it wrapped in the stator or the magnetism will bleed away.

To get a decent endfloat measurement on the crank its best if the rotor and sprocket are still fitted otherwise it wont make any sense.
Temp refit the the front sprocket and rotor with nut tight before taking end floats if you havent done so already. Theres two ways the crank wears, thrust end to end , and up and down , gotta know both , the thrust is looked after by a fancy bronze washer and some shims at the drive side bearing, if you get a reading now it will save some time on reassembly, at least you will know if it needs , no shimming or + 10 or whatever.
For up and down you are looking at wear at the timing side bush, a clock gauge is the usual way, but as Nick suggests , if you can get a 2 thou feeler into the bush / crank you know its Fecked.
Theres meant to be a washer behind the chain tensioner blade, and the crank to sprocket spacer is still sitting in the oi seal at the mains. On the TS , there is no tab washer fitted to the mainshaft nut , good job you are in there.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #784997 09/21/19 9:39 pm
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Put up a few good pics of the drive side crank cases around the engine numbers, the primary case and timing case screws, and one or two of the barrel flanges and flange nuts.
The number boss is late, the cases around the boss look like they have been buffed down , there is usually a prominent casting flash running vertically around where the L is in the motor number.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 09/21/19 9:42 pm.

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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: gavin eisler] #784998 09/21/19 9:55 pm
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quinten Online Happy
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.
buried in some official workshop manuals
... it states ... a rotor keeper is not needed .


.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785004 09/21/19 10:49 pm
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When I bought my last rotor it came with a keeper. Dont take any chances with magnetism. Once its gone you need to have sex with a welder to get it back. The manual is just marks on paper.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 09/21/19 10:50 pm. Reason: drunk

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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: gavin eisler] #785008 09/21/19 11:27 pm
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You have quite the way the words there Gavin. I'll keep the rotor inside the armature at all times.

Sadly I didn't think of measuring the end float prior to disassembly and do not yet have a dial gauge. I did get th gearbox out however:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

BTW, it ran rich when it last ran:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785009 09/21/19 11:29 pm
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And here are the requested photos:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785013 09/21/19 11:47 pm
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Jon W. Whitley Offline
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Definitely 1970 model engine.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1971 BSA A65 650 - Project
1972 Norton Commando 750 "Combat"

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785023 09/22/19 12:47 am
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Put the gear cluster back in temp, do up the nuts and make the end float measurement, if you dont do it now do it on the rebuild, doing it now lets you buy the right shim in time. These cases look buffed to me, someone might have cared for this motor.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785024 09/22/19 12:50 am
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Weird barrel nuts for a 70, would have been bihex originally, the flange looks thick enough, measure the studs OD are they 3/8th".?


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785027 09/22/19 1:09 am
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The end float is clearly noticeable by hand, and I can hear a clunk as I push and pull the end the the crank... eek

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785028 09/22/19 1:17 am
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So I got the top end off. Loosened the rockers:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and knocked out the cams and took off the rockers carefully labelling everything. Then it was time fro the Whitworth and Hammer:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Got all the bolts off, including the deeply recessed one. The top end came off with just a little encouragement froma block of wood in the ports and a hammer
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Here's the lower part:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Copper washer looks OK
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785029 09/22/19 1:22 am
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And here she is at the end of play today:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785040 09/22/19 3:27 am
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Dogs and gears look pretty good, make sure the camplate tracks for the selectors and the index plunger are not worn too badly.
When you shim the layshaft do it from the drive side. (the factory never did it!) As Gavin says, a couple of thou endfloat is all you want.
All looks pretty good so far. If the rotor is out for any length of time a keeper is needed. (just use the stator)
If you use a drop of loctite on the timing side crank locknut, you can dispense with the tab washer.
As you've probably found out, it's easier to remove the oil pump and worm drive as one. You don't have to do that if you use 3 bolts
rather than the original studs for the pump.

That's a 5/16 top end Gavin, probably cases too, that's why the hex nuts.

Last edited by NickL; 09/22/19 3:31 am.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785058 09/22/19 9:33 am
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The cases have the BSA embossed number pad, weird to find 5/16" barrel studs.I thought the embossed number pads all came with 3/8" barrel studs.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785073 09/22/19 1:41 pm
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Head also appears to have small studs. Maybe a set of factory replacement cases?

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785076 09/22/19 3:05 pm
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All the unstamped factory replacement cases built later I have seen come with the updated threads etc, ie cycle becomes UNF/UNC, the exception is some B25 cases made in 71 which had the narrow rear mount for 70 and before. There should be some small stamps on the crankcases showing a date, this started from 69 onwards or maybe earlier.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785115 09/22/19 9:36 pm
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OK, so now for the money shots. In as much as, how much money is this gonna cost?

I got the cylinder barrel off after using some heat to soften the gasket, which was clamping tight. Here are the pistons:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


and the bowel of the beast
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785117 09/22/19 9:39 pm
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And the cylinders...
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: MarcB] #785122 09/22/19 10:13 pm
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NickL Offline
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Originally Posted by MarcB
Head also appears to have small studs. Maybe a set of factory replacement cases?


No, the rear two are 3/8 as well.


That looks like a good set of barrels, the bores are evenly spaced, a lot of them were well over to one side.
Pistons look good, measure them up and check the ring gaps and bores, may not need any new gear there
just a hone and done.
Spend a while filing a 45 deg lead on the bores at the base, it makes assembly much easier.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785130 09/22/19 11:20 pm
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Yes--looks pretty good.
Suggestion: put some rag or some pipe insulation around the con rods to stop them banging against the crankcase.
Knocks and nicks start fatigue failures.
Sorry Nick--not referring to you! (Brit humor).

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785135 09/22/19 11:47 pm
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Did I spot a crack in #2 cylinder wall? I saw it in 2 pictures in a row, but later ones were blurry in that area, so I couldn't be sure.

Attached Files Screen Shot 2019-09-22 at 7.46.11 PM.jpg

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785144 09/23/19 12:57 am
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Hi David,

It does look like a crack, but it's just a scratch in the enamel. Looks fearsome:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
but a little rubbing with wire wool:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785145 09/23/19 1:00 am
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Well, end of phase 1 today: engine is out of the frame:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Now I have removed all the case connecting bolts, but it looks to have been stuck together with loads of sealant, and it has resisted moderate attempts to split the cases. Before I get medieval on it, any advice for case splitting?

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785172 09/23/19 6:38 am
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Allan Gill Offline
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Soak the cases in brake
fluid
cleaner around the sealant. It will soften it right up in a day.

Last edited by Allan Gill; 09/24/19 6:21 am.

beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785187 09/23/19 12:57 pm
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Its very clean inside, may not have done a lot of work before being layed up.
Nice going, enjoy.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785189 09/23/19 1:15 pm
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Adam M. Offline
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Great looking pistons and barrels, but lots of oil in one combustion chamber.
Check your valves / guides clearances.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785190 09/23/19 1:16 pm
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Great looking pistons and barrels, but lots of oil in one combustion chamber.
Check your valves / guides clearances.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785194 09/23/19 1:55 pm
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Thanks Allan, I would never have thought of using brake fluid.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785247 09/23/19 8:59 pm
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You have the old type oil pressure relief valve fitted , it may be worth replacing that with the late one especially if
you have an srm pump.
Should be running in a day or two eh?

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785295 09/24/19 6:23 am
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Originally Posted by Psychopasta
Thanks Allan, I would never have thought of using brake fluid.
. Sorry Psycho, had a typo. It was brake cleaner I was thinking of, brake fluid might work as it will remove paint but I did mean cleaner


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785306 09/24/19 8:48 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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OK, well I'll find out soon what brake fluid does as it put it on last night beerchug

I must admit, I was wondering how on earth you found out to use brake fluid. Brake cleaner I can get, good solvent.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785310 09/24/19 9:18 am
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gavin eisler Offline
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Petrol works as well, especially on Silicon RTV type gasket goo.
petrol makes RTV expand, thats why it isnt used on carbs.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785581 09/27/19 3:05 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Well, it turns out that brake fluid works pretty well too. Who knew? thumbsup

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785582 09/27/19 3:07 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Now for the cases:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

All case parts now off for vapor blasting

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786314 10/05/19 8:50 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Any advice on removing the swing arm pivot? I've removed both nuts, sprayed with WD40, used a propane torch and wailed mightily with a hammer but I cannot get the pivot to budge. The swing arm rotates around the pivot bolt just fine, but the bolt just doesn't want to come out. Help!

Last edited by Psychopasta; 10/05/19 8:51 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786320 10/06/19 12:05 am
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Hugh Jorgen Online Content
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No experience myself (yet), but there are ghosts from the past:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=290597


1970 T120R
1970 Commando
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786330 10/06/19 1:25 am
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D
David Kavanagh Offline
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I used a rubber mallet. I had the nut threaded on a few threads and the mallet did the job to get it moving safely.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786333 10/06/19 1:42 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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That's a useful thread you linked there Huge. Mine is on tighter than a very tight thing and I may have to resort to some hacksawery to get it off. Bugger.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786337 10/06/19 1:56 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Finished off dismantling the frame today. Or almost.

Rear wheel came off just fine. My bike has no speedo drive, just a spacer and a cap. More evidence (if it were needed) that's she's mainly been a racer:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Rear wheel came off just fine, as did the drive wheel:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Front wheel came off as usual, and the betor forks my bike has just came smoothly out of the triple clamps without fuss:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Disassembling the top clamp showed that the triple tree runs of open ball bearings in races:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Oh well. Will look into replacing these with proper bearings in due course.

The biggest cause of frustration today was getting the swing arm pivot spindle out, and it still is. I may have to get medieval on it tomorrow. We'll see what tomorrow brings. But the frame is now completely disassembled except for the swing arm, which is clinging on for dear life.

Last edited by Psychopasta; 10/06/19 1:57 am.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786382 10/06/19 8:01 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Well, have given the swing arm pivot as good as I've got and decided to give up. Discretion is the better part of valour, and all that. Need to find a shop with a press that can take it out.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786394 10/06/19 10:29 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Hah! Never discount a Scotsman in a bad mood. Swingarm removed.

Destroyed, possibly, but removed definitely. Look away now if you're of a nervous disposition...

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Coupled with a hacksaw leads to this:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So swingarm is now out, but still embedded solidly inside the rubber bushings. Will try burning them out now.

Also, the frame piece where the swingarm pushes against now has a gentle raise in it:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

A bit of heat and I'll know that back too.

Are there any upgrades to the swingarm that don't involve all this rubber mounting?

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786396 10/06/19 10:48 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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I am the God of Hellfire!

Managed to burn the bushings right out. Took some time, too:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Is there a better way of mounting the swingarm than this?

Last edited by Psychopasta; 10/06/19 10:49 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786405 10/06/19 11:46 pm
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gavin eisler Offline
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The 1970 swinging arm is on solid bushes, I dont know if they fit the earlier arm, maybe they could be made to fit?, someone will know, keeping it stock is easy, the rubber bushes work well.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786408 10/07/19 12:00 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Hey Gavin, Yep now I have destroyed the whole damn thing I can see that the problem is that the inner spindle seems to have been pressed in with no grease or any other lube, with the result that the whole thing has just frozen solid over the years. The manual says to give the pivot a move every 2000 miles, I'll bet that works just fine.

In other news, here's the front drum:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

How does that look to those who know their drums from their calipers? The brake surface looks very shiny, does it need roughing up, changing or leaving alone?

Last edited by Psychopasta; 10/07/19 12:03 am.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786435 10/07/19 6:47 am
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Allan Gill Offline
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Looks like the original asbestos shoes.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Allan Gill] #786456 10/07/19 11:21 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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U-oh. I take it that's bad?

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786464 10/07/19 1:34 pm
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GrandPaul Offline
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I may still have some bushings and materials, you can make a nice spindle with sintered bronze bushings like the ones I used to make for featherbeds. 140w oil like a Commando.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786469 10/07/19 2:54 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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If were still on about headstock bearings, All pre OIF BSAs used cup and cone originally as pictured, they work perfectly fine if maintained properly and I would have no problems fitting another set myself. An alternative is taper roller bearings from the likes of SRM, I have these in mine, I think I dropped the bottom yoke out after 10 years and re-greased the bearings, they were still absolutly fine. The Alls Balls ones I got for my Honda had dust seals with them though ( I don't know if the new SRM ones do or not) but its something I would look at fitting another time!

The asbestos shoes will work better than whats available now! but if your state/county what ever has a zero asbestos law then you'll need to replace them, however last thing I would do is glaze bust the shoes or anything like that, no problem with the front hub though. Best thing you can do once/if you have the front wheel re-laced is have the drum skimmed and checked for true (lacing can pull the drum out of round, mine was out 0.040") New shoes to match the new oversized drum are usually supplied to suit. However you may find that the person doing the work will want the shoes you have there, thus able to bond the new linings to the casting.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786537 10/08/19 2:35 am
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Mark Z Offline
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The swingarm pivot is not intended to rotate in the bushings, nor are the bushings intended to rotate in the swingarm. The only movement is the twisting of the rubber between the inner and outer bushing shells. That's why there's no grease on the swingarm pivot. Grease might help to get the pivot out "the next time", but those times are so few and far between that the grease would probably dry up anyway.

I'm not sure if the frame is different for the all-metal bushings, but the swingarm is definitely different. The diameter of the tube is significantly greater.

Changing the Silentbloc bushings is a PITA for sure; wait till you try to get the outer shells out of the swingarm. Fortunately, this is a job that most of us only have to do once.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786564 10/08/19 12:39 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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Once the swing arm shaft is tightened the bush inners clamp to the frame, if they haven’t then you will also see some side play in the arm. I grease mine and have never had a problem either by doing so.

The solid bush swing arms are narrower along where the cross over shaft sits, there then sits distance piece between that and the frame, I don’t believe the frames are any different in this area and one style of swing arm should fit a pre 69 frame.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #787437 10/18/19 9:34 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Been off this project for a few weeks. Now back. Got the sludge trap out, which was quite the battle:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Only to find the sludge trap was as clean as a whistle:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So clearly the engine wasn't run much after its last rebuild. Whether that's for good or ill, we'll have to see.

Next step is to measure up the crankshaft, cylinders etc and see what's what.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #787524 10/19/19 9:52 pm
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So I measured the cranks up. I took measurements in two planes, one along the oil holes in the crank (not across the holes themselves, of course, just in that plane) and one orthogonal to that. I took five measurements in each plane with a digital caliper than measured to 0.001 inches. Results were:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and across the output journals I took the same measurements, and got

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The cranks themselves were in well polished state with no obvious flaws. The output journal, inn er side has a bit of texture on it, but as this is the end of the piece that sits in the bush that may be normal. I just realized that the title should be 'Crank B, rotor side', oops.

I'm really open to your views as to whether the crank should be reground, or not.

Last edited by Psychopasta; 10/19/19 9:53 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #787530 10/19/19 11:08 pm
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gavin eisler Offline
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Your terminology is weird. What you label as the " output journal", can only be the timing side , the drive side is the output.
From the 70 manual
Drive side main journal 1.125".

Crank pins ( big end journals ) std 1.6865 "- 1.687"

Timing side journal bush ID 1.500, the manual does not list the journal OD, somewhere around 1.499 " - 1.4985 would give a reasonable running clearance
A digital vernier is not accurate enough ( better known as a guessing stick ) , you need a 1 -2 " external micrometer and a fine touch.
Your method of measuring at 90 degrees is sound.
Some of your measurements are suspicious, particularly the "output journal" figures, the only way they could be greater than 1.500 is if the journal has been sleeved, quite possible, but I would take these numbers with a pinch of salt , get a proper micrometer or take it somewhere that has one..

Last edited by gavin eisler; 10/19/19 11:13 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: gavin eisler] #787534 10/19/19 11:48 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Thanks Gavin. This is the journal I mean:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

which is, the timing side as you say. I do agree that getting a thou of accuracy over 1.6 inches is hard, so manybeing getting someone with proper measuring equipment is the right choice

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #787568 10/20/19 8:43 am
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Allan Gill Offline
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Get yourself a 2” micrometer. You should find that even if your vernier was really accurate you’d still have a high tolerance from user application.

Measure several points on the middle of the big end journal (inline with the oil holes) this is the area which shouldn’t see any wear. Then compare to both ends of the journal before the crank journal radius begins.

There’s no point in calculating standard deviation, either the journal reads the same all the way round over 4 measuring points per side or it doesn’t.

Also worth noting especially as the temperature is dropping now with the winter season approaching. Keep both the tool (micrometer) and the crank indoors for a few days, the indoor temperature will be more constant. It will also help you get a more consistent reading. A motor I did for a friend was showing a perfectly round journal but was showing to be between journal sizes, so before sending it for a regrind I did the above, left it several days with the micrometer sat on top of the crank then checked again. The journals were spot on size and it got built up into the motor.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #789114 11/04/19 2:04 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Betor Forks Disassembly

So today I got back onto it after a few weeks off and took the Betor forks apart. Everything disassembled easily enough, but I was surprised to find that the spring is unsupported through about half its travel

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I was expecting a rod that was held onto this right hand piece with a circlip or something, but no:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Bottom of the fork:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the top of the bottom piece, as it were:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The spring just sits on the cup at the RHS of this piece

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Anyhting look odd or out of place to anyone?

Last edited by Psychopasta; 11/04/19 2:06 am.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #789185 11/04/19 10:06 pm
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Ignoramus Online Content
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JUSt got to say Phyco you are doing a very thorough job well done!

one observation i would make (just going by the gearbox sprocket condition) is you might have found a pretty low mileage bike........well worth the effort


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Ignoramus] #789199 11/05/19 12:24 am
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Jon W. Whitley Offline
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Originally Posted by Ignoramus
JUSt got to say Psycho you are doing a very thorough job well done!

one observation i would make (just going by the gearbox sprocket condition) is you might have found a pretty low mileage bike........well worth the effort



I'll second that motion !!


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1971 BSA A65 650 - Project
1972 Norton Commando 750 "Combat"

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #789336 11/06/19 4:25 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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I second that emotion wink

Last edited by Allan Gill; 11/06/19 4:27 pm.

beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #789340 11/06/19 5:00 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Thanks guys! When you don't really know what you're doing, being slow and methodical helps. As does asking questions of those who do...

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #789924 11/12/19 7:08 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Hey guys, I need that advice now...

The cylinder barrels are within spec, however, they are cracked at the bottom of the skirts and have been previously repaired, but the cracks are coming through again:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

What say you? The bike will likely only be lightly used once reassembled, but I know these engines vibrate a LOT. Should I repair again, or get a new (or at least different) barrel?

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #789926 11/12/19 7:13 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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I have a crack at the bottom one the skirt on mine, mines been drilled just like yours and hasn’t spread since. The bike is also used in anger so providing the bore is true. Fit it and forget.


beerchug
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