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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #785582 09/27/19 3:07 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Now for the cases:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

All case parts now off for vapor blasting

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Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786314 10/05/19 8:50 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Any advice on removing the swing arm pivot? I've removed both nuts, sprayed with WD40, used a propane torch and wailed mightily with a hammer but I cannot get the pivot to budge. The swing arm rotates around the pivot bolt just fine, but the bolt just doesn't want to come out. Help!

Last edited by Psychopasta; 10/05/19 8:51 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786320 10/06/19 12:05 am
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Hugh Jorgen Online Content
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No experience myself (yet), but there are ghosts from the past:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=290597


1970 T120R
1970 Commando
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786330 10/06/19 1:25 am
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D
David Kavanagh Offline
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I used a rubber mallet. I had the nut threaded on a few threads and the mallet did the job to get it moving safely.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786333 10/06/19 1:42 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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That's a useful thread you linked there Huge. Mine is on tighter than a very tight thing and I may have to resort to some hacksawery to get it off. Bugger.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786337 10/06/19 1:56 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Finished off dismantling the frame today. Or almost.

Rear wheel came off just fine. My bike has no speedo drive, just a spacer and a cap. More evidence (if it were needed) that's she's mainly been a racer:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Rear wheel came off just fine, as did the drive wheel:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Front wheel came off as usual, and the betor forks my bike has just came smoothly out of the triple clamps without fuss:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Disassembling the top clamp showed that the triple tree runs of open ball bearings in races:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Oh well. Will look into replacing these with proper bearings in due course.

The biggest cause of frustration today was getting the swing arm pivot spindle out, and it still is. I may have to get medieval on it tomorrow. We'll see what tomorrow brings. But the frame is now completely disassembled except for the swing arm, which is clinging on for dear life.

Last edited by Psychopasta; 10/06/19 1:57 am.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786382 10/06/19 8:01 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Well, have given the swing arm pivot as good as I've got and decided to give up. Discretion is the better part of valour, and all that. Need to find a shop with a press that can take it out.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786394 10/06/19 10:29 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Hah! Never discount a Scotsman in a bad mood. Swingarm removed.

Destroyed, possibly, but removed definitely. Look away now if you're of a nervous disposition...

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Coupled with a hacksaw leads to this:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So swingarm is now out, but still embedded solidly inside the rubber bushings. Will try burning them out now.

Also, the frame piece where the swingarm pushes against now has a gentle raise in it:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

A bit of heat and I'll know that back too.

Are there any upgrades to the swingarm that don't involve all this rubber mounting?

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786396 10/06/19 10:48 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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I am the God of Hellfire!

Managed to burn the bushings right out. Took some time, too:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Is there a better way of mounting the swingarm than this?

Last edited by Psychopasta; 10/06/19 10:49 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786405 10/06/19 11:46 pm
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gavin eisler Online Content
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The 1970 swinging arm is on solid bushes, I dont know if they fit the earlier arm, maybe they could be made to fit?, someone will know, keeping it stock is easy, the rubber bushes work well.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786408 10/07/19 12:00 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Hey Gavin, Yep now I have destroyed the whole damn thing I can see that the problem is that the inner spindle seems to have been pressed in with no grease or any other lube, with the result that the whole thing has just frozen solid over the years. The manual says to give the pivot a move every 2000 miles, I'll bet that works just fine.

In other news, here's the front drum:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

How does that look to those who know their drums from their calipers? The brake surface looks very shiny, does it need roughing up, changing or leaving alone?

Last edited by Psychopasta; 10/07/19 12:03 am.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786435 10/07/19 6:47 am
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Allan Gill Offline
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Looks like the original asbestos shoes.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Allan Gill] #786456 10/07/19 11:21 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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U-oh. I take it that's bad?

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786464 10/07/19 1:34 pm
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GrandPaul Offline
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I may still have some bushings and materials, you can make a nice spindle with sintered bronze bushings like the ones I used to make for featherbeds. 140w oil like a Commando.


GrandPaul (does not use emoticons)
Author of the book "Old Bikes"
Too many bikes to list, mostly Triumph & Norton, some BSA & European
"The Iron in your blood should be Vintage"
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786469 10/07/19 2:54 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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If were still on about headstock bearings, All pre OIF BSAs used cup and cone originally as pictured, they work perfectly fine if maintained properly and I would have no problems fitting another set myself. An alternative is taper roller bearings from the likes of SRM, I have these in mine, I think I dropped the bottom yoke out after 10 years and re-greased the bearings, they were still absolutly fine. The Alls Balls ones I got for my Honda had dust seals with them though ( I don't know if the new SRM ones do or not) but its something I would look at fitting another time!

The asbestos shoes will work better than whats available now! but if your state/county what ever has a zero asbestos law then you'll need to replace them, however last thing I would do is glaze bust the shoes or anything like that, no problem with the front hub though. Best thing you can do once/if you have the front wheel re-laced is have the drum skimmed and checked for true (lacing can pull the drum out of round, mine was out 0.040") New shoes to match the new oversized drum are usually supplied to suit. However you may find that the person doing the work will want the shoes you have there, thus able to bond the new linings to the casting.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786537 10/08/19 2:35 am
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Mark Z Offline
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The swingarm pivot is not intended to rotate in the bushings, nor are the bushings intended to rotate in the swingarm. The only movement is the twisting of the rubber between the inner and outer bushing shells. That's why there's no grease on the swingarm pivot. Grease might help to get the pivot out "the next time", but those times are so few and far between that the grease would probably dry up anyway.

I'm not sure if the frame is different for the all-metal bushings, but the swingarm is definitely different. The diameter of the tube is significantly greater.

Changing the Silentbloc bushings is a PITA for sure; wait till you try to get the outer shells out of the swingarm. Fortunately, this is a job that most of us only have to do once.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #786564 10/08/19 12:39 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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Once the swing arm shaft is tightened the bush inners clamp to the frame, if they haven’t then you will also see some side play in the arm. I grease mine and have never had a problem either by doing so.

The solid bush swing arms are narrower along where the cross over shaft sits, there then sits distance piece between that and the frame, I don’t believe the frames are any different in this area and one style of swing arm should fit a pre 69 frame.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #787437 10/18/19 9:34 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Been off this project for a few weeks. Now back. Got the sludge trap out, which was quite the battle:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Only to find the sludge trap was as clean as a whistle:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

So clearly the engine wasn't run much after its last rebuild. Whether that's for good or ill, we'll have to see.

Next step is to measure up the crankshaft, cylinders etc and see what's what.

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #787524 10/19/19 9:52 pm
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So I measured the cranks up. I took measurements in two planes, one along the oil holes in the crank (not across the holes themselves, of course, just in that plane) and one orthogonal to that. I took five measurements in each plane with a digital caliper than measured to 0.001 inches. Results were:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and across the output journals I took the same measurements, and got

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The cranks themselves were in well polished state with no obvious flaws. The output journal, inn er side has a bit of texture on it, but as this is the end of the piece that sits in the bush that may be normal. I just realized that the title should be 'Crank B, rotor side', oops.

I'm really open to your views as to whether the crank should be reground, or not.

Last edited by Psychopasta; 10/19/19 9:53 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #787530 10/19/19 11:08 pm
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gavin eisler Online Content
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Your terminology is weird. What you label as the " output journal", can only be the timing side , the drive side is the output.
From the 70 manual
Drive side main journal 1.125".

Crank pins ( big end journals ) std 1.6865 "- 1.687"

Timing side journal bush ID 1.500, the manual does not list the journal OD, somewhere around 1.499 " - 1.4985 would give a reasonable running clearance
A digital vernier is not accurate enough ( better known as a guessing stick ) , you need a 1 -2 " external micrometer and a fine touch.
Your method of measuring at 90 degrees is sound.
Some of your measurements are suspicious, particularly the "output journal" figures, the only way they could be greater than 1.500 is if the journal has been sleeved, quite possible, but I would take these numbers with a pinch of salt , get a proper micrometer or take it somewhere that has one..

Last edited by gavin eisler; 10/19/19 11:13 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: gavin eisler] #787534 10/19/19 11:48 pm
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Thanks Gavin. This is the journal I mean:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

which is, the timing side as you say. I do agree that getting a thou of accuracy over 1.6 inches is hard, so manybeing getting someone with proper measuring equipment is the right choice

Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #787568 10/20/19 8:43 am
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Allan Gill Offline
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Get yourself a 2” micrometer. You should find that even if your vernier was really accurate you’d still have a high tolerance from user application.

Measure several points on the middle of the big end journal (inline with the oil holes) this is the area which shouldn’t see any wear. Then compare to both ends of the journal before the crank journal radius begins.

There’s no point in calculating standard deviation, either the journal reads the same all the way round over 4 measuring points per side or it doesn’t.

Also worth noting especially as the temperature is dropping now with the winter season approaching. Keep both the tool (micrometer) and the crank indoors for a few days, the indoor temperature will be more constant. It will also help you get a more consistent reading. A motor I did for a friend was showing a perfectly round journal but was showing to be between journal sizes, so before sending it for a regrind I did the above, left it several days with the micrometer sat on top of the crank then checked again. The journals were spot on size and it got built up into the motor.


beerchug
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #789114 11/04/19 2:04 am
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Psychopasta Offline OP
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Betor Forks Disassembly

So today I got back onto it after a few weeks off and took the Betor forks apart. Everything disassembled easily enough, but I was surprised to find that the spring is unsupported through about half its travel

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I was expecting a rod that was held onto this right hand piece with a circlip or something, but no:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Bottom of the fork:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and the top of the bottom piece, as it were:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The spring just sits on the cup at the RHS of this piece

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Anyhting look odd or out of place to anyone?

Last edited by Psychopasta; 11/04/19 2:06 am.
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Psychopasta] #789185 11/04/19 10:06 pm
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Ignoramus Online Content
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JUSt got to say Phyco you are doing a very thorough job well done!

one observation i would make (just going by the gearbox sprocket condition) is you might have found a pretty low mileage bike........well worth the effort


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: Barn Find Beeza [Re: Ignoramus] #789199 11/05/19 12:24 am
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Jon W. Whitley Online Content
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Originally Posted by Ignoramus
JUSt got to say Psycho you are doing a very thorough job well done!

one observation i would make (just going by the gearbox sprocket condition) is you might have found a pretty low mileage bike........well worth the effort



I'll second that motion !!


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project
1971 BSA A65 650 - Project
1972 Norton Commando 750 "Combat"

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