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Re: Barn Find Beeza
Allan G #807206 04/29/20 9:31 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan G
Mark, the rounding of the plunger isn’t to improve shifting, I was always ignorant to the turning 2 coils off etc as my box always was positive and crisp. Then one day it started jumping out of gear. When I took the box out I noticed the plunger had cut a groove into the cam plate.

I believe Triumph later on rounded their plungers, I did the same on mine, or rather took the sharp point off the end, put in another used cam plate and carried on. It’s been fine since.

I see; the rounding off of the plunger is to keep it from wearing on the camplate.

But I was addressing Psychopasta's complaint that the tranny was shifting very stiffly, which I'm trying to gauge as normal or not. That is, it IS hard to shift by pushing or pulling on the camplate, but how hard?

And, to repeat my question for Psychopasta, which is probably more important than the rest of my blather, is there oil in the gearbox? Nothing is going to happen very easily in there without ample lubrication.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
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Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807214 04/29/20 11:47 pm
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When test fitting expect the cam plate to move easily with the cassette nuts backed of a few turns

when tightened up, I fit the quadrant loosely and use it to drive the cam plate with the gear pedal fitted. This allows you to observe how the plungers engage in the windows, watch for chips on the lips of the plungers , reject anything dodgy, rounded windows are OK up to a certain point. You can learn a lot from this, any change that is stubborn should be investigated, the two sliding gears which are moved by the selector forks take the most beating, , you will find that the third to 4 th change is a longer sweep, and that 3rd to 2nd has most going on.
With a well prepared cam plate it should only need a light touch to move through the gears.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 04/30/20 12:50 am.

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Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807231 04/30/20 3:12 am
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Hey guys,

Well, I did notice a gouge in the wall of the casing:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

It doesn't feel very much but I was able to smooth it down and install the plunger again:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I cleaned out the hole and I oiled the plunger. I'm at a bit of a loss for a suitable simile, but it moves very smoothly. The camplate tracking looks good:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and I have become adept at jiggling the gearbox in and out now. I can get it to rest against the case with only a little spring force coming from the plunger trying to push the box out:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

MarkZ, to your point I have not filled the gearbox with oil at this point, but the gears are slippy with lube, and with the gearbox outside the bike I can change gears smoothly. Where I am now is that I can, just about, get the gears to change when I turn the output sprocket and apply quite a lot of force. Certainly not the 'light touch to move through the gears' that Gavin describes. Endshaft endfloat can be detected, just, but I don't have an accurate measurement of it. Having removed and reassembled the gearbox many times, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to get it changing smoother at this point. Maybe it needs the vibration of the engine to help it move freely :-)

Last edited by Psychopasta; 04/30/20 6:56 pm.
Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807238 04/30/20 4:52 am
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I recently put one together with a late stepped camplate, this fouled the bottom of the case when top gear was selected.
Rather annoying really as it didn't show up immediately, only when the bike was ridden hard it would sometimes jump out of top gear.

Given that there were about 4 or 5 vesions of the camplate with varying thicknesses etc it would be worth putting some blue on your one
and just putting the end plate in on it's own, then moving the camplate up and down.
One step at a time,then try the mainshaft+cluster, then the layshaft on it's own etc etc.. i Know it's laborious but it's worth it.

Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807267 04/30/20 12:58 pm
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The lock tabs for your ratchet nut need some attention.


There are no bosses in a technical discussion
(Doug Hele, 1919 - 2001)
Re: Barn Find Beeza
Ola #807305 04/30/20 6:05 pm
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Originally Posted by Ola
The lock tabs for your ratchet nut need some attention.
Good point , if this nut is loose the change becomes v difficult.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
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Re: Barn Find Beeza
Ola #807309 04/30/20 6:53 pm
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Yes, I haven't torqued the nut fully yet.

Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807310 04/30/20 7:01 pm
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Nick, I wasn't aware there were different thicknesses of camplate. Do you recall what the variation in thickness is? I always thought the camplate was a tight fit in its slot.

Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807313 04/30/20 8:06 pm
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A bit of reading: http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=358818

There is no interchanging the wrong cam plate with any given cover plate. Given that you have a '70 motor, you appear to have the correct plate.

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Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807332 04/30/20 10:42 pm
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Some thoughts.
The grease isnt helping, remove it and use EP 90.
Have you replaced anything in the gearbox? If you have look there first.
Until the main shaft/ kick rachet nut is tight all bets are off, this must be tight enough to set the correct spacings for the gears to slide/ clear/ mesh.
might be a good idea to fit the chain , and rear wheel, with brake, this helps when tightening the sprocket and spinning the box.
A 12 " adjustable spanner/ wrench can be used on the flats of the gear change quadrant to help move the cam plate, with the nuts up tight it will not move easily / at all by hand . I regret using the phrase " light" earlier.
Make sure all shims are in the correct positions, use diagram B30 in the manual, I have forgotten to fit the spacer on the timing side end of the mainshaft before. This spacer is easily shed from the cluster when its been stripped and its very easy to misplace.

Heres a good thing to try.
Assemble the cassette with no index plunger and spring. , does it engage all easily, obviously there is no detent but its easy to feel what going on. If thats OK , assemble with the plunger and spring, initial stiffness will settle in with use.
All tests should be done with rotating the gearbox sprocket,to simulate actual working conditions, spinning the input shaft should not be needed.Its nigh on impossible to judge how the box is working with out the chain and wheel spinning it.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 04/30/20 11:00 pm.

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Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807349 05/01/20 12:44 am
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Thanks Gavin I'll try all of those tomorrow.

Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807725 05/03/20 9:06 pm
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Good news!

I rebuild the gearbox again, after removing all grease and replacing with a small amount of gearbox oil. Also torqued down the kickstart ratchet bolt and locked the tab washer.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Reinserted gearbox without the plunger, and all was well. Reinserted gearbox with plunger, and it was very stiff again. Then assembled gear change mech and shifter pedal and was able to shift normally. It felt pretty snickety-snick, if I may be use the technical term.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Many thanks to all, especially Gavin, for much help!

Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807729 05/03/20 10:51 pm
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Snickety snick is exactly right, well done.
One last job to get the change / gear finished.
Setting the return spring bias.
Leave the change quadrant in its place.
Temporarily fit the timing chest, no need for a gasket, a few screws will do,
now fit the part i call the " grannies tooth", this sits over the flats on the change shaft and engages with the return spring and is locked in position by a very small socket head grub screw
.
NB, Once you have made the following adjustment , never fiddle with it again.
The return spring is mounted on an eccentric, to adjust the spring slacken the centre mount nut and twist the spring mount cup.
By now you should be familiar with spinning the wheel and changing through the box, if the spring is set correctly the change will not baulk and be clean , both up and down the box.
Try it out, if the change baulks and will not move either up or down, or needs a double push or waggle, look at the spring, twist it either way, note the grannies tooth is more or less biased by this.
The boxes I have worked on all seem to be most critical on the 3rd to 2nd down change, if it is going to baulk its usually here.
Now try it again, if its better , yay, if its worse then twist to bias the other way.
Sometimes the mount cup is not eccentric enough, occasionally they are drilled to close to centre, if you twist it and nothing changes at the spring then file the hole to one side with a round file to get the offset .

This took longer to type than the actual test takes. Ones you have the sweet spot its good to go, a bit of loctite on the spring mount nut will keep it sweet, never touch it again.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807734 05/03/20 11:40 pm
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Thanks Gavin, will try that tomorrow. Right now I'm refitting the clutch and alternator. Got everything done (photos to follow) and went for the 'final thing', fitting the drive chain tensioner. Turns out that was the first thing I should have done, as you can't get the bolt in place with the chain already there. So its all coming off again.

Arsebiscuits! Why does it never fall jammy side up?

Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807756 05/04/20 2:57 am
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Ok. Rule #1, don't do as I do, do as I say. Fit the bloody drive chain tensioner BEFORE doing anything else on the drive side:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

THEN offer up the clutch and alternator drives:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

This picture shows it done without the chain tensioner...

Alternator and rotor went back on easily. I reinstalled the clutch plates, and then fitted the SRM clutch cover. This little doobrey fits inside the clutch rod hole:


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Then pop on the clutch cover

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

and fit the springs and thimbles, with the screws:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I tightened the heads until the screw was just proud of the screwhead. Does it need anymore than this?

Last thing to do is set the clutch adjuster. Screw it in until it connects the bearing, and then retract it a full turn, and set the locknut:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Really nice to use metric tools again: if an M3 isn't big enough, try an M4. None of this 11/32nds, what's next after that hassle.

Last edited by Psychopasta; 05/04/20 2:59 am.
Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807764 05/04/20 6:58 am
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Looking good! A quick tip though Is to turn the alternator rotor the other way around. As the strobe timing marks are on the other side. thumbsup

Some if your clutch adjusting nuts look sunk beneath the top of the cup? You want to aim for the top of the screw head being in line with the base of the flat, screwing in further will apply more pressure and weight to the lever.

Also adjust your clutch pushrod when you’ve finished and got the inner and outer cover in place. You can then screw the rod until the arm just touches the inside of the case, giving you maximum lift. You should find that the adaptor piece that came with the lifting plate doesn’t touch the mainshaft, if it does then as the clutch settles, you will have no room for re adjustment later on

Last edited by Allan G; 05/04/20 7:08 am.

Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

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Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807766 05/04/20 7:07 am
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Beat me to it Allan....................

Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807778 05/04/20 9:36 am
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its a 1970 , hasnt got the clutch op arm, it has the 3 ball ramp.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza
gavin eisler #807780 05/04/20 11:34 am
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
its a 1970 , hasnt got the clutch op arm, it has the 3 ball ramp.


Was looking at that early barrel with 5/16 nuts and assumed it was a 69’


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

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67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
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Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807822 05/04/20 4:39 pm
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My 70 didn't have an eccentric spring cup but had a perfectly round one. I tried fitting an eccentric one and it didn't work at all. Refitting the round one restored operation.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807830 05/04/20 5:59 pm
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On the other side, the timing cover came off easily
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
and looks fine at first glance. I pulled out the bodged wiring loom, ignition coils and mounting brackets, and removed all the oil lines from the tank. Then removed the screws holding the toolholder in:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Both the oil tank and toolholder are now free, but will not come out until I remove the rear fender I think. Then, 'twas beer o'clock and tools were downed for the day

[/quote]

Here we see a 1970 onwards timing chest with the grannies tooth engaged in the return spring mounted on the maybe eccentric maybe not. Whats missing is the small tab which holds the points wires up from the clutch mech, make sure you fit one and make sure the wires are up not down,.


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Re: Barn Find Beeza
htown #807838 05/04/20 6:49 pm
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I hadn’t seen that post Gavin but thanks for sharing. The OP would be best changing those low tension wires. Looking at the case it looks to be Oif type as it has the extra screw position at 7 o clock to the gear quadrant shaft, I don’t believe the 70 has that. Like you say it will most likely have the eccentric adjuster because of this.


Originally Posted by htown
My 70 didn't have an eccentric spring cup but had a perfectly round one. I tried fitting an eccentric one and it didn't work at all. Refitting the round one restored operation.

You might find adjusting the position of the peg that the spring tangs rest on will make a big difference. If you can warm the case you can rotate it but also filing the flat will help. As long as the spring is a touch fit to both the grannies tooth (like that term) and the peg you will have good engagement.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807846 05/04/20 8:01 pm
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Quote
Some if your clutch adjusting nuts look sunk beneath the top of the cup? You want to aim for the top of the screw head being in line with the base of the flat, screwing in further will apply more pressure and weight to the lever.

I agree with Allen and the way I usually adjust the springs is to screw them in until the springs are coil bound and then back off the adjusters a couple of turns so that when the handlebar clutch lever pulled in and Kickstarter used, the clutch spins freely. You might need to screw the adjusters in or out accordingly but the idea is to get max spring pressure and minimum drag. It's probably best to err on the side of a bit too much much free play as in the real world these clutches can drag a bit when cold.

Last edited by gunner; 05/04/20 8:02 pm.

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Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807858 05/04/20 9:25 pm
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Not only that, but when you kick a bike with clutch engaged check if your clutch plates run straight and true, if not you have to make them adding or lessening pressure of individual. springs. This prevents clutch from dragging.

Re: Barn Find Beeza
Psychopasta #807871 05/04/20 10:27 pm
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Fractional adjustment of the clutch springs is not possible, remember that,
start with the screws flush if you have a high spot , screw in one whole turn at the nearest screw.
One whole turn is when the pip on the screw head re engages with the spring tang.
Get it as close as you can, its Ok to have one looking weird , springs are not that close in length from new, if you buy three its not a great chance, buy six, pick the best three.


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