BritBike Forum logo
BritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorThe Bonneville ShopBritBike Sponsor
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
ShoutChat Box
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments.
Buy BritBike staff a coffee
Buy BritBike's staff a coffeeStill here since 1996 serving BritBike enthusiasts..
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Member Spotlight
eightangrybears
eightangrybears
New Hampshire, USA
Posts: 193
Joined: December 2010
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
Digital Expressions, johnjorgensen, Ray Byrne, Heff, kerna
10915 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
franko 77
quinten 65
Popular Topics(Views)
1,050,963 mail-order LSR
a word from..
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics68,068
Posts683,226
Members10,915
Most Online14,755
May 5th, 2019
Who's Online Now
59 registered members (Beach), 348 guests, and 931 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 8 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #785282 09/24/19 2:57 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Mark Parker Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Thought I'd measure how much could be added welding in the pushrod tunnel where the port breaks through. It could be widened an additional 10-12mm without problem. The port doesn't need to be that much wider but a little more might be good.

Just for curiosity I measured flow through the port with a stock 40.5mm valve. The bench hasn't been calibrated for a few days but it probably doesn't matter that much for this experiment, and bear in mind that the port entry and carb required is 34mm.

With bare manifold 146.5cfm, with bell on manifold 156cfm. Oversize valves are not that necessary but they give extra flow and compensate for worn seats, they may also work better at low lifts. I don't really get this, you would think the valve at .385" lift would be far enough away to make no difference, but obviously not, the back of the valve is very much in the equation. The 42mm MAP valves have a very fine swirl pattern, I polished it off one of them and made it very smooth and shiny, it flowed a little less, so obviously the valve matters, size, shape and texture.


mark
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK
British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #785287 09/24/19 3:52 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,261
D
DMadigan Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
D
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,261

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #785323 09/24/19 1:35 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Mark Parker Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
That is interesting DM. What they haven't got is a port shape anything like the stock A65, that is at such a low angle and aimed across the valve, they only show ports that aim at the back of the valve. They compare oval ports to round ports and they work largely the same except one is higher. And the BSA head has no height and a very compromised approach to the valve, I'd love to see a simulation of that flow.

You can see the flow pattern around these valves in the article is pretty uniform, right around, the stock BSA flow around the valve would not look like that. In the article big valves near the edge of the head are less uniform. Using an oval port in the confines of the BSA head allows the port to turn onto the back of the valve and use flow around it more uniformly, when it does so there is a big jump in flow. The air can get through the valve the way the valve is meant to work.

Big valves work to a degree in the BSA because they have more area for flow, though only on that part of the valve where air goes through, so a 44.5mm valve can flow about the same air, predominantly through one side, as a 40.5mm can flow, when it does so uniformly around the whole circumference. It's just a matter of seeing how that translates to an engine in use. The guys that work with Norton heads try to keep their ports smallish, because they want to maintain the Norton's strong midrange with a limited rpm ceiling. So unless they short stroke them, or go for 900cc+ they do not use super big ports and valves. The best stock Commando head flows around 123cfm I think. They use smaller valves than the stock BSA's 40.5mm. I'll have to go visit their site and see what they get from a similar valve size.

I expect there is a port size to valve to carb to flow that is optimal. Not sure what it is without simply experimenting, and the BSA head gives plenty of options for levels of flow.


mark
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #785388 09/25/19 7:26 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,261
D
DMadigan Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
D
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,261
A calculation from Superflow for RPM versus CFM can be found here:
https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/cylinder-head-math-for-engine-performance/
VE Factors

1,196 = stock engine

1,256 = street/strip engine

1,316 = race engine

RPM = (VE factor รท displacement of 1 cylinder) x CFM

So for a stock engine the peak power engine speed should be
1196 / 20 * 107 = 6398.6
(only valid for 28 in measurement)

Another SuperFlow-sourced formula along the same lines uses airflow through a complete system to predict peak horsepower.
Horsepower = observed CFM x power coefficient x number of cylinders

Power For Flow at Coefficient Inches of Water

0.43 10

0.35 15

0.27 25

0.26 28

So for your measurement of a standard head with everything attached (manifold and carb) the HP is
HP = 107 * 0.26 * 2 = 55.64

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #785403 09/25/19 12:23 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Mark Parker Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Yes it's interesting isn't it. It's so fundamental. The key to engine performance. I doubt it's fully understood by many people, the fact that where an engine makes power is totally related to how it breaths. It's not the cam that determines at what revs an engine makes power, it's only a minor player compared to the cylinder head's ability to breath.

I think your hp calculation is for a fairly hot race engine.

In the Wallace Racing calculator for a street/strip motor, their mildest tuned, to hit the target 67hp would need 145cfm and would be around 8,000rpm in an otherwise stockish motor. The Lightning head I've done should do that through a carb quite easily.

The Thunderbolt head at 168cfm, if that was available through a good breathing carb, predicts 80hp beyond 9400rpm. So the Thunderbolt head would be more suitable for a 750 running to 8500, that would be similar power to a Z900 Kawasaki. High compression, 11-1 or 12-1 and a good exhaust would qualify it as a race engine, the cam would need retarding to clear the valves and power could possibly reach the 86hp predicted at around 8,500 which is reasonable rpm more suited to a 90 degree. Plus the 34mm port is small enough that midrange should be great. Possibly this would be the most sensible spec for a sweet A65 engine that would last, as a 750 big bore using B44 pistons 10 or 10.5 -1 compression should give no problem on the road on premium fuel.


mark
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #785764 09/29/19 4:23 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Mark Parker Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
This is Ben's 750. We are still trying to work out the needle jetting. We have a wide band o2 sensor in a header plus an air/fuel gage tied to the dash. Transition from pilot system to needle goes through excessively rich to lean unless you get the spot on the needle where it's good. I might get some new needles and modify them a little where needed. The carbs are 38mm flatslides on a large port head with 44.5mm valves, that flows around 180-190cfm. The RGV chassis gives super handling and brakes.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmF...AGlOVpL7r6NduE_rxFCw80glxWLO03FIBLRO9T74

Last edited by Mark Parker; 09/29/19 4:41 am.

mark
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #785779 09/29/19 1:25 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 453
konon Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 453
Sounds strong, seams to pull hard. Do you plan to run it on a dyno ?


1968 BSA Firebird
1200 HD
XS 1100
1972 Rickman 125
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #785834 09/29/19 11:27 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Mark Parker Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Maybe.

Jan from Sweden posted this on another thread. Flow measurements for the converted small port small valve twin carb head. Using a radiused entry increases flow by up to 8-10cfm. Unless the radiused intake is making more difference than that it's about the same cfm as the bigger port bigger valve later head.

Denis J, Thanks for updating your hp figures, do you think you may have mixed up the gas speed figures as well? Jan's measurements in this small port head are quite different. Wish I had the gear to make those speed measurements.
If the flow is as good and the port smaller, the midrange and bottom end should be stronger as people report. It must have been frustrating for the guys at BSA trying to do this in the '60s without the gear to measure flow.

What Jan measured:

" Just finished a flow test on a small port head, 68-466. Valve dia 1.51". Radiused intake.

Lift [email protected]"

.100" 54.4
.200" 86.3
.300" 109.8
.400" 119.5
.500" 122.6

Average gas speed measured at nine points in the port.
@ .200", 202 ft/sec.
@ .500", 207 ft/sec.

Next test will be with 1.600" intake valve."


mark
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #786775 10/11/19 9:13 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Mark Parker Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
I bought myself a copy of David Vizard's how to port and flow test. Very interesting book.

Interesting section on valve guides. Clearance on the intake guide to valve stem can be .0014"- .0016"
and going to .004" just on the intakes dropped 3hp on a 165hp engine, going to .006 dropped 9hp. K/liners can run as close as .0001" without seizing, but can lose hp because the valve cannot self centre in a heat distorted head and seat. I always use k/liners on my bike because they are precision machined in the head without any distortion from fitting.


mark
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #786778 10/11/19 9:41 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,687
Hillbilly bike Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,687
Vizard is a regular and has his own section the Speed Talk web site...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #787026 10/14/19 2:18 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Mark Parker Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Thunderbolt head photo for DM: Fairing the guide even with plasticine increased flow by about 4cfm. to 172.3cfm @ .385". I have no idea how to add a flair that would not risk getting swallowed by the motor, though the port does go deeper in that area and a ridge can be left it's not that high and it is very difficult to shape. Could make it from JBweld I guess. Welding in the pushrod tunnel and going wider would probably get the same increase in flow, with a slightly bigger port rather than slightly smaller frown So yea fairing the guide would be better.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Flow with the 34mm PWK. Knocked back flow to 156.8cfm, there was a square edge at the outer edge of the bell so blended it= 158cfm all without the faired guide, 160.7cfm with it. A 36mm carb I expect would lose less.

Seeing 145cfm should give around 69hp @ 8,000 in a stockish engine this port is well over target.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

The Thunderbolt head with both ports the same, with twin 34mm carbs on a 750 with higher compression could give around 82hp, swapping to 36mm carbs could give possibly another 5hp, probably around 8000-8500rpm. Or 9,000+ on a 650, it would be fun to put it on an engine and see.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

In David Vizard's book he allows calculation on port velocity based on port size and also flow, so even though a port is bigger if the flow is up enough velocity is not particularly lost. If the predicted hp to flow seems optimistic in reality it's not, it's just based on a law of physics, or science. Which indicates what can be expected if everything is set up well. It may include variations in the exhaust and other settings to get every last hp out of it, but it should be available.

Last edited by Mark Parker; 10/14/19 3:46 am.

mark
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #787035 10/14/19 3:51 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,261
D
DMadigan Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
D
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,261
Actually, the leading edge of the fairing ahead of the guide should be rounded like an airfoil. Having a sharp edge will be critical to flow angle and you could loose flow from separation. The downstream side of the guide can be filled in the width of the guide back to the bowl with a sort of sine wave shape blending it into the bowl and rounded on top. This area is in the wake of the valve stem which can be oscillating or turbulent depending upon the Reynolds number.
[Linked Image from labman.phys.utk.edu]
The swirl scratches in the valve stem below the guide increases the turbulence and energizes the boundary layer which delays the separation around the stem, effectively increasing the Reynolds number so you get the smaller turbulent wake shown in No. 5 rather than the larger oscillating separation shown in No. 4.

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #787041 10/14/19 9:39 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Mark Parker Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
DM the way it is with the sharp edge is working, the photo distorts it a bit the sharp edge is lined up central with the guide, and it is adding flow and taking up space. I have had that sort of thing more curved that messed it up, this is taller though and may be separating the air. If it was tearing across it the flow would be less. I like that it's giving extra flow and making the port smaller, it would be nice if that bit was cast in. But I might be able to make it from JBweld on top of what's there.

It's pretty exciting getting this sort of flow from such a small port and valve at stock lift. #5 might be why the swirl patter valve flows a little better than polished, I was wondering why it was.

I may be able to make a mold to shape the guide fairing in the port.

In Vizard's book he has a ported small port head flowing slightly more than a big port head at all but high lift conditions, on the dyno it has more power right through with 30hp more at the top end, with power hanging in longer. He had also increased compression ratio with the small port head which he said would account for 10hp.

Last edited by Mark Parker; 10/14/19 10:50 am.

mark
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #787045 10/14/19 12:13 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,941
Allan Gill Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,941
Originally Posted by Mark Parker


It's pretty exciting getting this sort of flow from such a small port and valve at stock lift.


How big roughly is the port?


beerchug
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #787076 10/14/19 8:09 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,460
A
Andy Higham Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
A
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,460
It would be interesting to see the effect of a tapered "fairing" on the engine side of the valve guide, it would give a more streamlined shape


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #787083 10/15/19 12:21 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Mark Parker Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
It's faired both sides of the guide with plasticine, but it would raise a bit of a problem removing the guide, as it would need a punch with a very small ledge.

Allan its a 42mm valve, where the port enters the head it's 28X34 the carb is 34 but probably should be 36, then the taper from 36mm would be perhaps more ideal and boost the top end. So this is just trying to get the best from this valve size, and probably less applicable to a 650 unless it's built to for 9,000rpm.

I'll measure the port volume when I'm done, just making the guide fairings waiting for the JBweld to set. I put shrink fit over the end of the guide and modded the punch for removing it. The easy in and out guide has a reduced dia. but I need to leave it alone till tomorrow.

Volume measurements are a bit difficult because the ports on a Lightning are longer, and the stock Thunderbolt is 27mm. But seeing flow is increased by at least 50% air speed in the port should be good. If you have ever ridden an SV650, although it will pull a lot of rpm with very good power, it's also very good in the mid range where most people run them. It would be nice to get a nice power spread similar to that.

Bit of an update:
The fairing on the guide stole cfm, I still have a little there. The plasticine ones looked like a gain but I think it was miss-reading. I tried a few things, deepening the bowl a little more and making the bottom turn less sharp but only gained 1 or 2cfm. I think it needs to go wider. That's where the most notable gains were so I'll widen toward the fins; it must be close to breaking through but it's easily patched if I do, and see what happens. It's got good flow at .300" valve lift but not much gain higher than that even though it gets a lot noisier. Maybe air is tearing off the tiny fairing that's still there?

I definitely put the test cyl the wrong way in my fixed bench, it would be better with the inlets facing out, easier to see in and hold some strands of thread in there to see the direction the air's flowing.

Added vac #4 so I can test at an actual 28"W and above. Might start comparing low lift values at 100"W to replicate a running engine, TDC on overlap can have 100-120"w by mid intake stroke it has reduced to 15-20"W. Low lift flow is important to making the best power, might as well see what can be done in that area, esp when cutting the seats. Probably shouldn't test at night, turning all 4 on at once will probably dim the neighbor's lights frown

Last edited by Mark Parker; 10/16/19 11:08 am.

mark
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #788129 10/25/19 11:36 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Mark Parker Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
These are a few different inlet valves that can be used in the A65 head. On the left is an early small port 37.2mm intake, the later 40.5mm intake, 42mm MAP, a 44. something, slightly smaller than the last which is a Jaguar 44.6mm. The head underneath is a small valve A65 Star Twin modified with welded on stubs for a Webber carb.

The 37.2mm valve is new and was with some parts I obtained years ago. It seems to be A65 and fitted the Star Twin's stock seats. I was able to get 130cfm through the valve reshaping the port a little, but not filling the floor. The 40.5mm was better once the seat was opened appropriately for it, and with the floor lifted now gives 152cfm at stock .385" lift. At .500" its 156cfm. Low lifts seem like they will be good .200" is 113cfm .250" - 129.6cfm .300" - 144cfm.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Last edited by Mark Parker; 10/25/19 11:37 am.

mark
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #788131 10/25/19 2:01 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,941
Allan Gill Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,941
Nice reporting Mark, I bought the forementioned book and already had a read through it, but will go through it again and probably several times trying things as I go. There is also a mention about valve shapes (applogies if it isn't from this book but if not I have the link on my phone for the page going through it) it links the "tulip" or flute of the valve vs the port height in relation to the valve seat. In short, the lower the port on the head the flatter the flute.


beerchug
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #788191 10/25/19 11:45 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 416
N
NickL Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 416
It's funny really, all those years we used a t'bolt head and everyone without exception told us we were daft
and that the twin carb one was much better. I actually made up a twin carb head to use the weber on, it was
fiddly to do as the tubes angled inwards but i thought as the downdraft was better it would improve things.
I admit it never got the full works like the last parallel port one we used but it was noticeably slower and as the
carb sat higher it was more awkward in use.
The flow bench testing is very interesting reading, the lower lift figures are what impresses me. You don't need
big valves or hairy cams with flows over stock at .200.
Bloody triffick work Mark! (Don't tell SRM or they'll be pirating it.)

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #788230 10/26/19 11:20 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 453
konon Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 453
Really enjoy this Mark. Your flow rates from a 2 valve head are amazing.
The star twin head should give good power and not lose torque.


1968 BSA Firebird
1200 HD
XS 1100
1972 Rickman 125
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: NickL] #788232 10/26/19 12:30 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,687
Hillbilly bike Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,687
Originally Posted by NickL

The flow bench testing is very interesting reading, the lower lift figures are what impresses me. You don't need
big valves or hairy cams with flows over stock at .200.
Bloody triffick work Mark! (Don't tell SRM or they'll be pirating it.)

Yes, many overlook that the valves spend far more time at low lift than full lift as the engine cycles.Once the carbs and intakes are in place and how the flow reacts as it enters the cylinder and is confronted by a moving piston, figures can change a bit...Now Mark need to build a test mule to see what the head will do in real life. Should be interesting..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #788294 10/27/19 2:45 am
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 416
N
NickL Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 416
Shall i tell 'em Mark?

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #788309 10/27/19 6:06 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Mark Parker Online Content OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,564
Yea for sure Nick.


mark
Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #788310 10/27/19 8:18 am
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 416
N
NickL Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
N
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 416
Well, Mark has very kindly agreed to do a head for this outfit i am preparing for next years season.
Although i'm unfortunately not riding the old beast, i have been doing some work on it for a while.
He got a 2nd place in the Aus titles last year as a 650 only being beaten by a 900cc highly illegal Norton thing.
The chap is a good rider and has had some success with it so far and really wants to have a crack
at the aussie titles next year. It's a period 3 (pre-62) road race outfit a 'sitter'. Based on a Manx Norton
frame and LL forks etc.
The engine will be an end fed A65 with A10 crank and A70 pistons around 750cc.
I just can't get these things out of my system............so as an old fart at least i can get to prepare and watch.
I know Marks work on the head will be a huge boost on the old girl.

https://i.imgur.com/qLfbAAW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/MXirxGr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/K3D7Cqd.jpg

Re: The what if A65 67hp challenge. [Re: Mark Parker] #788312 10/27/19 8:50 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
J
JER.Hill Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 366
Hi

Good stuff Nick, look forward to seeing it all built up and as you said with Mark's head work as well it should be a go'er.

regards

John

Page 8 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  Allan Gill, Jon W. Whitley 

Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | DVD- Manuals & Parts books
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3