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The myth of the high revving A65 #781225 08/11/19 11:21 pm
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Not trying to stir a hornet's nest here but curious about this:

I've seen multiple mentions on this board about how much the A65 motor "likes to rev" and how it's happiest above 4000 or even 5000 rpm. That's never been my experience; my riding style on the BSA is the same as on my old ironhead HD sportster. The revs I'm most comfortable for cruising (any gear other than 4th) is around 2800 to 3500. 4000 is reserved for very fast acceleration (the kind where there are no cars to impede it) and 5000 is unheard of unless maybe in a drag race. I'm talking about real-life "cruising" here: backroads with traffic and curves and other obstacles. Highway riding in 4th is irrelevant to this exercise.

I cannot imagine a case where I would be riding around at 40 mph in 2nd at 4000 instead of shifting up to 3rd at 3200 rpm. The bike is simply not "comfortable" at this range. Not just in terms of vibration, either. So, I did some research by watching Youtube videos and what I've found is the few ride videos posted tend to agree with this. The riders who hold anything close to 4000 are riding around in 4th gear.

Can anyone here vouch for riding their bikes around town at 4000 rpm and doing so happily? (this thread is useless without video evidence wink )

A few examples I've found:
*unfortunately, any video more than 4 or 5 years old are either too poor resolution or the field of view it too narrow to see the tach

(this guy does a lot of highway speed riding, but every shift in gears 1st - 3rd are at or below 4000)



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Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781228 08/12/19 12:22 am
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The standard 'oversquare' construction of the a65 makes for a buzzy motor but the heavy pistons
tend to cancel the revving advantage out somewhat.
As a 750 they are much better and stand 8000 very well, they actually feel like a jap type twin
when set up that way.
My t'bolt will plod along at 3k with no problems and around the houses i tend to change up early.
If i feel the need to 'get-along' 5500-6500 is ok but these days i have one eye out for cameras.

I never felt happy holding a video camera whilst riding though, so i have no evidence.

Last edited by NickL; 08/12/19 12:26 am.
Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781250 08/12/19 5:45 am
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Originally Posted by MarcB


Can anyone here vouch for riding their bikes around town at 4000 rpm and doing so happily? (this thread is useless without video evidence wink )

I make every effort to keep my A65 at 4000 and above. I usually don't shift until 6000. Fourth gear is reserved for highway speeds where 4-5000 is the norm.
I can plod along at 3500, but I would never accelerate from there.
One of my biggest gripes with the A65 is the huge gap between 2nd and 3rd gear, hardly the best arrangement for riding around town.


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Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781260 08/12/19 9:54 am
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I have never seen 8 K RPMs on my bike , I once revved it to 7.5K RPMs it did it nae bother but seems like a lot of sturm and drang for not much extra acceleration , ,
around town 30 mph , if I leave it in first and use revs it scares traffic and peds, so I shift into 2nd. Out of town keeping up with traffic sub 4 K will do, making progress I change up at around 5.5 K. My motor is smoothest at 4 - 5.5 K.
Open roads cruising it lives at 4 - 5 K K, approx 60 - 75 mph. Riding like this it does 55 -65 mpgs.
Occasionally I rev it to 6.5 K between gears for the experience, its not much quicker than changing up at 5.5 K.
My bike is a 732 and has a balanced crank.Geared 21 /47 .With 30 mm carbs its very responsive through the rev range . You can plod with these motors, but oil pressure and the cam are better at 3.5 K and higher. IMO the A65 was named for its optimum road speed , on stock gearing 20 /47 the motor is just over 4K at 65 mph, its happy spot.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 08/12/19 9:57 am.

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Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: gavin eisler] #781278 08/12/19 12:49 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
You can plod with these motors, but oil pressure and the cam are better at 3.5 K and higher. IMO the A65 was named for its optimum road speed , on stock gearing 20 /47 the motor is just over 4K at 65 mph, its happy spot.


This is the part I struggle with... Again, based on what I've seen on Youtube (not exactly scientific, I'll give you that) and the way I personally ride, 3500 is close to max "for everyday riding". If that's considered "plodding" then 100% of what I've seen falls in that group.

I do agree that 4000 in 4th is adequate and acceptable. I just don't see it in any other gears.

Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781279 08/12/19 1:03 pm
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I too also plod around and not abuse my 64 BSA SF-Hornet. I have it set up as a street tracker wearing knobbies with stock gearing (short). I use it around town and off road and back country roads. Rarely sees the + side of 50mph.

Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781288 08/12/19 5:18 pm
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High revving A65s, certainly not plodding
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGacoC5O4VU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVaaUw50Abk

if you seldom go past 3.5 K you are missing out on a lot of fun.

Ive watched a few A65 youtube videos and I have to agree, with the first poster, many of them are ridden very conservatively, perhaps the proud owners are worried about even more expense, seldom are they revved bast 3.5 K, this is the point where the cam comes in. Ride it like a tractor or ride it like a two stroke, sup to you. My motor is shaky at low rpms, it smooths out a lot as it comes on the cam, so out of town its ridden like a two stroke, whats the point in having an oversquare motor otherwise, perhaps an A10 makes more sense for a lot of folks. It has a longer stroke and has more tractor factor at low rpms.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 08/12/19 5:32 pm.

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Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781299 08/12/19 6:48 pm
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If you are not revving an A65 past 3500 you are only using about 20%- 25% of its power. You would be better off selling it and buying a Honda 90


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Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: gavin eisler] #781300 08/12/19 6:57 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
High revving A65s, certainly not plodding
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGacoC5O4VU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVaaUw50Abk

if you seldom go past 3.5 K you are missing out on a lot of fun.

A hillclimb hardly represents normal cruising. I'm not arguing that the bike pulls well above 4000, I just don't agree that it's the type of riding most people do on a daily basis.

That second video posted, on Paul Henshaw's channel, he usually rides and shifts way too low even for my tastes. In the video listed above, there isn't a tachometer but I think he's shifting below 3800 most of the time (though it sounds to me like the clutch is slipping as the revs increase and he may have been aware of this and keeping it low on purpose).

I guess my point isn't that the bike can't do 4500 rpm, it's just that this isn't where I feel the bike is most comfortable holding a steady pace (unless in 4th gear). To me, if you're going to hold a steady RPM for any amount of time in 2nd or 3rd gear, it's below 4000 and I've yet to see someone who consciously rides an A65 around in 45 mph traffic in 2nd gear.

Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781304 08/12/19 7:33 pm
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Great video on what happens when you lug an engine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soJea7xEt-8&t=158s
couple of points
a bit of blowby in an old Brit bike is quite likely if it has a few miles on it and ring wear. Also a bit of wear on valve guides
a modern electronic fuel injection can temporarily enrich the mixture at low rpm full throttle, making damage less likely. An AMAL can't do that.
Any time you drop to the 2.5 to 3K range you need to downshift and not just roll the throttle open. Especially up hills.

Last edited by htown; 08/12/19 8:03 pm.

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Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: htown] #781307 08/12/19 8:07 pm
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Originally Posted by htown
Any time you drop to the 2.5 to 3K range you need to downshift and not just roll the throttle open. Especially up hills.


"Any time" though? If I shift at 3500 and the revs drop to 2800, I'd argue I'm safe to cruise around. Accelerate a bit, even. If I'm doing 45 mph and I shift to 3rd, then traffic slows to 40, I doubt I would downshift unless traffic were to suddenly open up.

However, I wouldn't do gun it wide open nor do it going uphill.

I think there are some points that we all agree: the A65 motor will happily pull to 4k or 5k and is recommended not to attempt fast acceleration below 3k (I'd argue 3200 to 3500).

However, the response to someone who states that they shift at 3500 shouldn't be that they are potentially hurting the motor or that the motor is otherwise "unhappy". This is likely where most of the A65s remaining on the road spend their time. And that's why, to me, it feels like a myth; something people talk about but that no one (or very few) has ever seen in person. Hell, we're not launching from 3500 at every green light and stop sign.

I welcome all of the feedback though. I fell this is a helpful discussion.

Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781310 08/12/19 8:38 pm
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I just suggested that rpm range for down shifting as a general idea not a hard and fast rule. On my bikes dropping below 2500 feels like I'm pushing it. Each bike's different. Maybe more of a feel thing. If you open the throttle too much at too low an rpm and the bike doesn't instantly respond but seems to slowly build speed you are lugging it. For general riding I usually stay in the 3.5 to 4K range. 3.5k is low 60's mph and 4K around 70, good cruising range on the 2 lane black tops I ride. Most rides I'll at least once run through gears shifting around 5.5 to 6K.

Last edited by htown; 08/12/19 8:48 pm.

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Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781318 08/12/19 10:43 pm
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What A 65 we are talking about ?
I owned my A65 for 10 years in 3 different configurations:
- as I bought it with big port head and 2 two stroke Amals ( terrible and unable to rich 5K revs + impossible to go steady on 1/4 throttle at speed )
- stock one carb Thunderbolt head ( great bike, one kick starter, lots of torque from low revs and great cruiser of secondary highways steady 70 mph no problem if you could stand the vibes, great fuel economy. )
- double carb small port head, big valves, stock "sport" cam, 2 x 32 MK1 carbs - this engine used to sing at 6k revs and I got it a few times to 7k on second and third, even closed a tach ones on second.

3 quite different bikes, 2 different styles of riding, unfortunately only vids I have are from slow riding in town, where lights and heavy traffic limit you to..........3500 rev where Thunderbolt really shines.
But this vid is short acceleration on small port head's bike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqKSHMVFrg

And 70 - 80 mph ride on a freeway:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCICSVgp_lQ

Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781327 08/13/19 12:46 am
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I've raced a couple of a65 engines where you changed up when the handlebars are still able
to be gripped...............(less than 3 inches diameter) But compared to an Atlas they were bliss!

Gavin's take on it is about right i think but he's riding a 750 kitted one, they are considerably better
vibes wise. My road bike has single 28mm carb with big inlet valves and 9.2-1 comp but otherwise stock.
The piston height and weight above the pin seems to give the high vibe thing as revs go up.
The setup gives great bottom and mid-range, so that's where i use it mostly.

Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781356 08/13/19 8:41 am
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Every bike is different, Adams experience is similar to mine. The larger port heads don’t work as well at lower revs vs big changeable in throttle opening. (To put it bluntly)

The air pressure in the port needs to equalise before the there is enough effective vacuum to draw more fuel through the jets. A big port takes longer to do this than a small port. And a port with an improved shape does this better still.

Probably why all the 1 5/32” ports all had 20:47 gearing instead of the earlier 19:42 or close equivalent 21:47.

Mine has small ports with 40mm valves, x12 cam, about 10:1 compression 932 Concentric carbs. Gearing is a rough equivalent to 20:42 (because the clutch gears it up a tooth) and it pulls real sweet. Top gear is giving 3900 rpm at 70 and feed the throttle in and it’ll be up to 90 without changing gear.

But I tend to ride in a gear where the bike is happy, if I’m climbing a hill in too high a gear and I open the throttle a small amount and it’s not pulling then I change down. It doesn’t take a rev counter to instruct you to do that, that’s merely a diagnostic tool. IMO


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Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781543 08/15/19 3:30 pm
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mark
Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781565 08/15/19 7:18 pm
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NickL, maybe you need a 90 degree three bearing crank to make the handle bars smaller at high RPM?

Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781567 08/15/19 7:43 pm
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Maybe dynamic balancing too.
My B31 (500 DBD34 style engine) is pretty smooth at 7000RPM, My GM500 single is also smooth at 11000, my Geeves Villiers engine is fighting to escape the constraints of the frame at 11500


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Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: DMadigan] #781582 08/15/19 10:23 pm
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
NickL, maybe you need a 90 degree three bearing crank to make the handle bars smaller at high RPM?



Yes maybe, but it's a bloody load of complication for such a small outcome. Fitting a norton crank and 80mm pistons makes for
a much better engine anyway, if the crank is at 68, 180 or 76 degs. Maybe even 90 degs. (i never tried 90) At least that way the
need to rev the motor past 6800-7k diminishes and 80+bhp is available.

OR just buy a 900 Weslake/Nourish! (i can vouch for the fact that it's cheaper and less stressful in the long run!)

Last edited by NickL; 08/15/19 10:27 pm.
Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: NickL] #781591 08/15/19 10:56 pm
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Out on the highway at speed 65-70 i'm at 5200 rpm.
Round town 1-2-3 in the 35-4000 rpm range is where I'm at most of the time with very light throttle.

Race bikes are completely different - trying to keep in the 5-7000 range and fighting the 2nd to 3rd gear jump while trying to do this is quite annoying. For me the 2-3 gear jump of the standard box makes it is so hard to be smooth and I'm sure I scaring everybody around me as well.

I would love to try a close ratio box on the race bike just see what it is like.


"Don't trust your eyes if your imagination is out of focus." - Mark Twain
Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781597 08/15/19 11:30 pm
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Close 1st+2nd are good with standard 3rd. The close 3rd is to close to top for all but very select circuits.
Close 1st is very tall though, it has to be to get that 2nd in the right place and close the horrible 2-3 gap.

Let me know if you want a close box, i've one here with mostly new gears.

Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781603 08/16/19 12:01 am
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Our 90degree std stroke 750 is very smooth. Dynamic balanced. The 883 vibrates so its rubber mounted, it can shake away on its own. So in the end they are both smooth with no buzzing pegs bars or mirrors.


mark
Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: NickL] #781609 08/16/19 2:33 am
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Originally Posted by NickL
Let me know if you want a close box, i've one here with mostly new gears.


So close third is even closer to fourth than Standard third??

Yeah! PM me your price please.

Last edited by Semper Gumby; 08/16/19 2:34 am.

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Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781623 08/16/19 4:59 am
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I always wondered about fitting just the CR second. First is already a bit tall, and I could deal with the 1-2 gap a lot better than the standard 2-3 gap.
I'm at 19/47 now just so I'm not screaming in second until I get out of town. Never did care for this bike on the interstate anyway.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: The myth of the high revving A65 [Re: MarcB] #781680 08/16/19 10:43 pm
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You will move the 2nd-3rd gap down to 1st-2nd by just fitting the close 2nd.
I've tried that way when i couldn't get a close 1st pair at one time.
Overall close 1st+2nd, standard 3rd are the best combination for the track and sports road use.
For old plodders like me, the standard box is ok on the road, you can tweak the engine to give a little
more lower grunt to overcome that 2-3 gap.
I found 20/47 was a good final ratio and regret going to 21/47. When it's worn i'll go back.
It's all about the type and amount of riding you do and personal taste.
Freeway riding is like racing at Willowbank Queensland, all straight and bloody boring.

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