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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780768 08/07/19 12:22 am
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David Kavanagh Offline OP
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I've been able to see part of the sludge trap screw and it's slotted, so old style, or original. I can't imagine if the bottom end is this tight, they wouldn't have serviced that. I also don't know how many miles are on the re-build.
Next thing is to order clutch locking tool (probably from here unless there's a better option: https://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/tools/primary-clutch-tools/shopby/bsa.html)
I'll need to get a proper puller. The 2-jaw I have isn't suitable for the timing-side gears.
Oh, and persuading the alternator windings off their mounting... fun.

btw, picked up another bike which needs carbs re-built (not British, sorry). Priority is the BSA though. :-)


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780874 08/08/19 1:43 am
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David Kavanagh Offline OP
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I ordered some tools from Feked (puller, clutch locking tool and basket puller. Now if I could just get that alternator armature loose!!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780876 08/08/19 2:09 am
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duplicate post

Last edited by David Kavanagh; 08/08/19 2:10 am.

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780895 08/08/19 8:14 am
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gavin eisler Online Content
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! Now if I could just get that alternator armature loose!!!

Do you mean the alternator Stator or Rotor, ?

"Armature" is the correct terminology for a Dynamo generator ( DC) and usually refers to the rotating part with its commutator and windings . Your bike has an AC generator with a wound stator and a permanent magnet rotor , there is no armature.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780911 08/08/19 12:26 pm
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Thanks, Gavin. I do want to use the correct word. The stator is very difficult to free from castings in the '68 case. I'll try a 2-jaw puller later.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780913 08/08/19 1:23 pm
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usually the stators will walk off the studs one little bit at a time, sometimes with some help from a wide flat blade screw driver, (twisting - not prying) however they get very much tied in with the rotor so removing the crank nut and trying to get both removed at the same time might be easier as your not working against the magnets pulling it back on.

you will need the correct threaded puller for the clutch, a sliding jaw puller with space to mount bolts will work for the crank sprocket if it doesn't come loose.

I did a side by side comparrison of the early and late idler pinions.

There isnt much difference between them, I used a straight edge to show clearance between the two (where using the socket I swapped sockets over to prove there was no indiference with heights.

As you can see the early type (on the left) is deeper dished than the late one (right)

the early type also is more proud from the back of the gear to the front edge of the teeth than the later type (wider overall) .... fractionally.

Both gears are also bevelled on the outer edge but not as much as the cam pinion.

If any of this helps....

Attached Files 1.jpg2.jpg3.jpg4.jpg5.jpg

beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780966 08/09/19 12:42 am
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Stripping upper rear of bike while waiting for tools. Seat, tail light, fender and attachments. Note to self: Must loosen rear axle nut before I get too far.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780969 08/09/19 2:22 am
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Did you get the stator off? There are two notches near the front studs. Those are going to be key to getting that thing off. That, and making sure it comes out evenly in each stud.

Originally Posted by David Kavanagh
Must loosen rear axle nut before I get too far.


Not sure if you're familiar with the quick disconnect hub but it allows you to remove the wheel, leaving the brake and sprocket in place. Makes getting to the rear motor mount much easier. Also key to getting the drive chain back on when getting it back together.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: MarcB] #781013 08/09/19 2:40 pm
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found info about the back wheel!

Attached Files IMG_20190809_103657624.jpg

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #781285 08/12/19 4:27 pm
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I bought this: https://thebonnevilleshop.com/trium...61-3256-61-3676-61-6014-61-6046-61-3773/
hoping to get the timing gear off the crank & the pinion off the crank shaft. Of course, it doesn't fit the crank gear grooves. Sure, I can modify the tool, hopefully not to the point of weakening it too much. Thoughts?


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #781287 08/12/19 4:59 pm
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As I mentioned earlier, the gear at the end of the crank will fit through the bush. Once the crank is out of the case, there's a bit more space behind the gear to grab it with bearing splitter (like this) or a number of other tools. You'll likely need a bearing puller like that to get the inner roller bearing off the other side of the crank anyways.


Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: MarcB] #781293 08/12/19 6:19 pm
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Sorry, must have missed that tidbit. So many things to remember!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #781294 08/12/19 6:21 pm
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You may need to grind down the ends of the puller feet so it fits exactly in the pinion slots. Additionally its worthwhile using a jubilee clip or a couple of strong cable zip ties to pull the feet together and ensure they dont slip off.

Heat the pinion first to help it slip off, it;s not unusual for one of the pinion slots to break whilst being pulled off.

Last edited by gunner; 08/12/19 6:23 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #781378 08/13/19 2:27 pm
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Got the head back from being blasted. Guy said he spent well over an hour on it and I gave him $80 and walked away happy. This head will look great on top of the cylinders!

Attached Files IMG_20190813_101455492.jpg

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #781382 08/13/19 3:16 pm
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Did you give it to him with the valves still in?

Looks good! Once you’ve got all the valve gear out of t, make sure you give it a good clean with soapy water and tiny bottle brushes to ensure there is no blasting material left in any of the oilways.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: Allan Gill] #781387 08/13/19 4:22 pm
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Yes, I figured the valve faces would get a cleaning that way, but I expect to be cleaning out passages. I'll also blast some compressed air through. My attempt to get the valves out with a c-clamp and a pipe section with a chunk cut out (to reach the keepers) didn't work out, so I guess I'm buying another tool!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #781391 08/13/19 4:43 pm
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Originally Posted by David Kavanagh
My attempt to get the valves out with a c-clamp and a pipe section with a chunk cut out (to reach the keepers) didn't work out, so I guess I'm buying another tool!


Getting them off is the easy part: deep socket + hammer will make the keepers pop right off.


See https://youtu.be/aZTnODXfDvA?t=91 and https://youtu.be/qzqHATdD2EM

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #782051 08/20/19 5:06 pm
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While trying things to get the stator off (tried a 2-jaw puller, and noticed oil squishing out from between the plates. I dared not apply too much force.

Anyway, Noticed the clutch friction plates in my clutch are aluminum. The originals in my spares box are steel. Seems aluminum saves weight, but is much weaker. I'm leaning towards putting the originals back in.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #782228 08/22/19 2:53 pm
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Look at the stator mount alloy boss,at each side diametrically opposed there is a small cut out to allow a wedge to be driven in, make sure it is pushed off evenly, two sacrificial screwdrivers should do it.

Assume the clutch is fecked, check all plain steel plates are flat to within a cupple thou, sheet glass and feeler gauges. Forget alloy plates without an alloy clutch drum.
The steel one will eat them .
Assume the cush drive is fubar, a whole new one is 100 quid well spent,
open up the old one to check the rubbers, you need to drill out "peening " on the through bolt ends to let them undo. Once its opened up expect to find massive wear on the cush spider and end plates, if it isnt , be amazed, replace the rubbers if its OK.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #783026 08/29/19 11:37 pm
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OK, I figured out my problem. The stator studs have shoulders. I don't think they should either. Whomever had this apart previously may have used the incorrect parts!
I captured this from a video of a '68 Lightning which has what I'd expect:

Attached Files Screen Shot 2019-08-29 at 7.35.07 PM.jpg

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #783035 08/30/19 1:07 am
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Here's what I pulled out (and I've only been able to get 1 out so far!).
Thought it was a shoulder on the stud, but it's like a washer. Look at the second photo because it looks to me like it was part of the nut. See the bumps on both that match up. I think it was some kind of lock-nut that was put on backwards and so the "washer-like" part was jammed into the stator and grips the threads so well, it's hard to get off!

Attached Files Screen Shot 2019-08-29 at 9.04.09 PM.jpg

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #783055 08/30/19 9:41 am
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These look like the correct studs, what you call a shoulder is normally called a plain shank, the stator is meant to fit tightly, its a machine, it turns kinetic energy into electrical energy, it needs held tight. Its normal to fit a washer under a nut, note the stator nuts are a small hex , keep them with the stator studs, and fit a magnet keeper to the rotor or re insert it into the stator when it is removed.
Why are you removing the stator studs anyway? I have never found that necessary.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 08/30/19 9:43 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #783057 08/30/19 10:55 am
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Gavin, I'm not sure you read my second post. I agree they are the correct studs and I completely understand what the alternator does and the need for tight tolerances. Anyway, the bit that's jammed against the stator and stud threads isn't a normal washer since that would not bind up on the threads. It is why I'm having the trouble. I'm not able to get much of a grip on it to get it turning and didn't know it was the problem till I was able to back out one of the studs. So, I either get the others to turn and thread them off, or I back out the other studs. Neither have worked so far, but I'll keep at it and move on. I'm also told that putting the rotor back in the middle of the stator once they're off is as good as a keeper, is that true?


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #783066 08/30/19 5:11 pm
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The washers are likely alloy and soft, so when they were tightened they closed up against the stud. Nothing special to them. I've never seen ones with the "bumps" like on yours but it appears to be a type of locking mechanism. Are there bumps on both sides? I can't imaging how it would lock if it's only on one side... they would simply turn along with the nut.

The parts book calls for a individual locknuts (p/n 70-5324), no washers.

In any case, I think you may want to sacrifice something go get the stator off. Either try to cut the washers to help relieve them from the stud, or glue a nut to the stud and remove them that way. Studs are p/n 70-7711.

The rotor, being a very strong magnet, will want to attract all metal filings and shrapnel laying around, and cleaning that stuff off after is almost impossible. I put mine in a ziplock bag, the thick kind designed to keep in the freezer.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #783100 08/30/19 11:24 pm
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Well, I got the damn thing off. studs came out, then got that washer thing off. definitely steel. I can take more pictures if anybody likes, but I'll not be putting those back on!
The rotor came right off w/ the stator. I put it back on the crank and there's a little radial play. The key is firmly in the crank, so I assume the keyway in the rotor is a bit beat up. I hear that play between the rotor and crank is not desirable. What's the best course of action? Replace the rotor? I'll take the key out and measure it to see if it's the bit that's beat up.

Now, waiting on that feked.com order. I'll stick with CBS from now on. They delivery promptly! Then, I'll have the clutch off and pull the primary gear (could probably do that now actually).

Once that stuff's off, I'll get the engine out of the frame and get the frame stripped down for blasting and coating, figure out what's getting re-chromed and make a trip to Buffalo where the plating company is to get my engine covers stripped of chrome and the chain guard re-chromed, and maybe the headlight basket.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
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