BritBike Forum logo
BritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorBritBike SponsorThe Bonneville ShopBritBike Sponsor
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
ShoutChat Box
Comment Guidelines: Do post respectful and insightful comments.
Buy BritBike staff a coffee
Buy BritBike's staff a coffeeStill here since 1996 serving BritBike enthusiasts..
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Member Spotlight
DPO
DPO
Douglasville (Atlanta) Georgia
Posts: 1,623
Joined: June 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
Richard77, Jon law, Honey Badger, puffinpower, Mr.Paul
10905 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
franko 102
DavidP 63
quinten 63
Popular Topics(Views)
1,050,016 mail-order LSR
a word from..
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics68,039
Posts682,871
Members10,905
Most Online14,755
May 5th, 2019
Who's Online Now
69 registered members (Adam M.), 503 guests, and 879 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Anti drain valve #779823 07/27/19 7:45 am
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 347
S
Steven A Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Offline
BritBike Forum member
S
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 347
It occurred to me that the adv is just a non return valve used in an unusual way. Are there inline alternatives that can go in the oil hose from the oil tank?

Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK
British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779842 07/27/19 2:25 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
htown Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
Yes there is and no they are not a good idea. Lot's of documented cases of blown engines. The ones in the oil line require suction to move the ball while the one in the engine is pushed by the pump pressure. Get an air gap in the one in the line and the engine will starve for oil.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779845 07/27/19 3:09 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,554
Tridentman Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,554
There is a valve sold by the AJS and Matchless Owners Club in UK.
It has electrical connections so that the engine will not start unless the valve is open.
There are two variants---one where with the valve closed the electrical contacts are open---this is for use on a coil ignition machine and the valve connections are wired into the ignition supply line.
The other is where with the valve closed the electrical contacts are closed--this is for magneto equipped machines and the valve connections are wired to the earth connection on the magneto.
HTH

Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779852 07/27/19 3:54 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
htown Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
Just to be clear the one Tridentman is talking about is a mechanical ball valve that has to be opened each time manually. As long as that happens and the electrical lock out is to ensure that it does, no problem. The type I'm referring to is the passive one that relies on suction in the oil line to open. I've followed a number of Brit bikes forums over the last 20 years and have seen a number of documented cases with pictures of what happens when the passive type valve doesn't open. The pictures of rods through the cases are quite impressive. A lot of these have been on the Norton forum because Nortons with a rotary pump tend to wet sump over time so people look for easy fixes. Same with BSA's but at least they have an internal check ball. Triumph twins generally don't have wet sump issues with the plunger pump as long as it stays clean. A Trident shouldn't wet sump if the internal check valve is working and the pump is in shape. If one that's sitting a bit between rides does either fit the valve that Tman refers to or install a sump plate with drain plug and drain the sump and refill the tank with the drained oil. I did that on my Trident for a number of years until I rebuilt the engine and put a new pump in.

Last edited by htown; 07/27/19 4:01 pm.

1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779857 07/27/19 5:05 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,554
Tridentman Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,554
Sorry if I did not make things clear.
Thanks to HTown for clarifying the matter.
I agree with everything in HTowns last post.

Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779870 07/27/19 7:51 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
htown Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
Some wet sumping isn't a big issue either. Generally, if the screen is covered or there is a smidge of oil on the end of the dipstick I just start the engine and let the pump clear the sump. The return side of Brit bike pumps usually flow more volume than the feed so it will quickly catch up.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779879 07/27/19 10:54 pm
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 347
S
Steven A Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Offline
BritBike Forum member
S
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 347
Good comments. I noticed the Norton tales of woe. There is talk of a Velocette valve with a very light spring. Any thoughts on them?

Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779890 07/28/19 12:12 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
htown Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
I just say no to any valve except the manual one with a lock out.

Last edited by htown; 07/28/19 1:00 am.

1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779892 07/28/19 3:50 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,208
RF Whatley Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,208
These type valves are always a very bad idea. People assume that the suction on the intake somehow mirrors the pressure capability of the output. So they further assume that with so much work getting done on the pump's output, that the intake must be capable of opening a simple one-way valve with a very light spring.

Both those assumptions are false. And more than one owner has found out the expensive way.


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779900 07/28/19 9:36 am
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 347
S
Steven A Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Offline
BritBike Forum member
S
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 347
i have just rung up a Vello owner. The Vello valve has an extremely light spring. You prime the system by filling up the hose before connecting it to the valve. He and the other Vello folk don't have problems.

Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779901 07/28/19 9:50 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,131
kommando Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,131
The anti drain valve I have on my Commando is a modified air line non return valve, I took it apart and modified the spring until it only just held back a 2ft column of oil. The Velo is just the same strength wise ie a light blow from the mouth will open it, but it still needs a primed oil line from valve to pump so this line needs to be re primed every time you change the oil or disturb the line. In addition the valve can stick shut when standing for long time so when first starting the bike a check of the return oil is needed but not a glance, you must see enough oil enter the tank from a full sump and be sure the oil is freshly coming from the tank via the valve.

Mine has been on for 20 plus years and has never been an issue but I know the limitations and act accordingly.

Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779914 07/28/19 4:02 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
htown Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
RF has more experience than the rest of us on here put together. I'd heed his advice.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779919 07/28/19 5:12 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,741
DavidP Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,741
All this just to avoid crawling around on the shop floor to clean the non-return valve? It's not like you have the remove the oil pump to get to it.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779922 07/28/19 6:29 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,554
Tridentman Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,554
I would not use a suction type valve on the oil supply line.
However a manual valve WITH an electrical interlock is quite another thing.
Just my two cents worth of course.

Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779929 07/28/19 8:41 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
htown Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
Not sure if OP wants advice or just someone to confirm his preconceived idea.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Anti drain valve [Re: htown] #779945 07/28/19 11:31 pm
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 347
S
Steven A Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
OP Offline
BritBike Forum member
S
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 347
Originally Posted by htown
Not sure if OP wants advice or just someone to confirm his preconceived idea.


Sorry for not immediately agreeing with you. I'll try and do better next time. I promise not to seek other opinions. Sorry!!!!

Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779949 07/29/19 12:36 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
htown Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,502
Well considering four or five of us told you essentially the same thing how many opinions do you need? If you wait long enough I'm sure someone will post on here about how they had one on their bike and it worked fine for fifty years.

Last edited by htown; 07/29/19 1:28 am.

1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Anti drain valve [Re: htown] #779950 07/29/19 12:55 am
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,921
Lannis Online Content
Well'ard Rocker
Online Content
Well'ard Rocker
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,921
Originally Posted by htown
RF has more experience than the rest of us on here put together. I'd heed his advice.


His advice is sound, but I'll bet RF has never installed a "lightly spring-loaded" non-return valve on his own newly-rebuilt BSA engine, had it air-lock and stop the flow of oil, and ruin the bearings on his new engine.

If it sounds like my experience can fill in that little gap, you're right!

If you're getting wet-sumping, why not just fix your motorcycle rather than slapping band-aids on it that might do more harm that good?

Lannis


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779970 07/29/19 12:43 pm
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 26
D
dick page Offline
BritBike Forum member
Offline
BritBike Forum member
D
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 26
I have a anti drain valve on my Matchless G12 which I installed. It has a switch activated by the valve handle which turns power to the ignition on and off. I have tried to start that bike more than once with the valve in the off position and wondered why it wouldn't run. It is fairly large and it would be difficult to mount and access on a Trident. If I recall correctly it was custom made by a member of the Matchless club. I have 2 currently running Tridents. The 72 will drain all of the oil into the sump in a few days. I may have had the valve apart before to clean it out. As I recall, it is difficult to get to with the engine in the frame. The 73 also wet sumps, but maybe not as quickly. It has a newly rebuilt engine. I welded a bearing ball on the end of a rod and used valve grinding paste on the seat. It is difficult to see down into the hole where the seat is even with the empty crankcase in your hands. Of course any widening the seat lowers the pressure applied by the ball on the seat. So that didn't work all that well. I have started triples many times with a sump full of oil. However, a couple of years ago I started my Rocket 3 after it sat for an extended time. The oil light stayed on after it ran and didn't go out until I shut it down. So, maybe not such a great idea. The bikes can also be difficult to spin fast enough to start with a crankcase full of oil, especially when the air temperature is a little cooler. So now both Tridents have sump plates with a drain plug.

Re: Anti drain valve [Re: Steven A] #779981 07/29/19 3:18 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,131
kommando Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,131
Many years ago a Bike mag carried a review of an old Matchless, this wet sumped so the owner added a car washer jet pump plumbed to the sump and oil tank. Before starting the bike he operated the washer jet pump to clear the sump and return the oil to the tank, the pump was only on prior to starting and not used again until just before the next ride. The internals of a washer jet pump are plastic and rubber so would only work with cold oil.


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | DVD- Manuals & Parts books
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3