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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779772 07/26/19 6:12 pm
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The tool is essentially a long bolt with a sliding weight on it. You should be able to put a long bolt with anything over it you can use to pull on with good plyers.

This is what it looks like:
[Linked Image]

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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: gunner] #779774 07/26/19 6:18 pm
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Sadly, I must not have the properly calibrated tap. The thing is firmly jammed on!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779775 07/26/19 6:19 pm
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This guy shows how to use a small dowel to cause the bolt to bottom out and pull the AAU out: Triumph T120R Crank shaft Oil seal change

Granted, this is a triumph with a Boyer rotor, but the process should be the same for points on a BSA.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779776 07/26/19 6:19 pm
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ah, the shaft itself comes free. I thought the mechanism came off the shaft. got it.


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779778 07/26/19 6:38 pm
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Here's another Triumph video, but the BSA part is the same (except it mounts to the pinion gear instead of the exhaust cam: link

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: MarcB] #779781 07/26/19 6:59 pm
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That helps illustrate what I'm facing really well! I just wish I had something with that thread laying around!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779790 07/26/19 8:52 pm
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The good news is if your change to a Boyer or Pazon then to remove that an M8 bolt with the first few threads ground off works perfect for pulling the rotor off.

With your points, as gunner said, use an appropriate sized bolt to screw into the end of the AAU, then give the bolt a few taps from different angles, it will knock off.
One difference with triumph and BSA AAUs is BSAs don’t use a key to locate the AAU.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779808 07/27/19 12:04 am
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what sort of good news is that?

the AR mech comes off when a 5/16 bolt of the correct thread is used to push the bits off the taper, its either 5/16 UNF or 5/16 BSF the bike might have these bits on, try the handlebar mount bolts.

once you have removed the AR mech , put it with the points into a small plastic bag with some toe nails clippings.
Fire up your forge,
get the bag contents to red heat , pound into a badly made knife then fit Electronic ignition with new wires , 6 v coils and ignition switch.

Breathe deep. and continue. one small step.

I used to advise throwing the AR mech and the points into the nearest body of water, but, in case somebody tries to use it later , total destruction is the best way.

happy friday night.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 07/27/19 12:54 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
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Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779810 07/27/19 1:18 am
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Well, it turns out I got to the same point on my rebuild as you are with your teardown, so I thought I would try the cross-over trick with the shifter spring. Here's what I found:

There really are different springs:
[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

I tried to cross-over the spring with the longer tangs. It was a struggle. No way is that going to work:
[Linked Image]

Aaah, much better:
[Linked Image]

What might have happened is what often happens: a modification is made to a design and it's assumed that it will be backwards compatible. In this case, what I assume is the later spring (the longer one) appears to work fine *if* you don't cross over the tangs. That's just a guess.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779813 07/27/19 3:24 am
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And, inside the timing case. Questions, I have some...
https://youtu.be/7BNtDMYVKy8


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779840 07/27/19 1:24 pm
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Looks like the bearing behind the crank pinion is the original plain type, you can test for wear by trying to move the crank up/down & sideways as well as side to side, there should be hardly any play.

Check the oil pump carefully for the "DD" stamp, this would indicate the later type alloy pump which is OK and may be re-useable, see This Link for details of A65 oil pumps.

With the oil pump in place and oil lines hooked up you could try spinning the pump over with a cordless drill using a length of rubber hose clamped to the pump tacho drive. This should reveal any leaks in the pump body joints and the pump to crankcase joint. This procedure is more useful when assembling the engine but might give you an idea of any existing issues.

Last edited by gunner; 07/27/19 1:36 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779861 07/27/19 5:23 pm
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Originally Posted by David Kavanagh
And, inside the timing case. Questions, I have some...
https://youtu.be/7BNtDMYVKy8

The primary reason for leaving the gears on is so you can check how the marks line up. If the timing marks are off on disassembly, that's something you want to know now as it will indicate that the previous owner screwed it up or that the gearss may be incorrectly marked.

Without this info, you could have a harder time during reassembly. Once you've verified the marks (taking a picture won't hurt) then feel free to pull off the idler gear any time.

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779876 07/27/19 9:43 pm
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I was wondering about checking out the oil pump. I like the idea of trying to run it in place before removing it. I thought of having the connecting rods held up by some elastic cord so they don't bump into the case. I assume if the pump spins, the crank spins unless there's a clutch on there I don't know about.
I'll verify the timing marks before I go further. I've got my Friday night planned out once I return!


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #779877 07/27/19 10:10 pm
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When verifying timing marks, if my memory serves me correctly when the crank is at top dead, the woodruff key for the crank is also top dead centre too, as is the camshaft, if to bottom dead center then the crank just needs another revolution for all the marks to align.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: gavin eisler] #779886 07/27/19 11:29 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
what sort of good news is that?

the AR mech comes off when a 5/16 bolt of the correct thread is used to push the bits off the taper, its either 5/16 UNF or 5/16 BSF the bike might have these bits on, try the handlebar mount bolts.

once you have removed the AR mech , put it with the points into a small plastic bag with some toe nails clippings.
Fire up your forge,
get the bag contents to red heat , pound into a badly made knife then fit Electronic ignition with new wires , 6 v coils and ignition switch.

Breathe deep. and continue. one small step.

I used to advise throwing the AR mech and the points into the nearest body of water, but, in case somebody tries to use it later , total destruction is the best way.

happy friday night.




Very well put sir.


To run the oil pump fitted to the cases you'll need to remove the worm drive from the crank, which is a left hand thread.
You will then be able to put a piece of tube onto the tacho drive section of the pump and spin it with a drill.
Personally i'd take the pump off and go through it anyway, then test it on the bench. Then refit it with 3 allen bolts so you
don't have to mess about with the worm drive. You can also reseat the non return ball valve and replace the spring.
Just my 2c.

Last edited by NickL; 07/27/19 11:36 pm.
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780431 08/03/19 3:42 pm
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OK, back home and seeing how far I can move things along this weekend. https://youtu.be/Pu1iz_UX41M and then this one: https://youtu.be/DKLmRNATX2U

Last edited by David Kavanagh; 08/03/19 9:34 pm.

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780481 08/03/19 11:56 pm
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Nice progress.

That oil pump is original for '68, not a DD cast iron bodied one. They're not necessarily bad but testing their delivery is tricky on bikes without a pressure gauge, so it's really up to you whether you want to chance it or not. I'm putting in a SRM pump in mine this time around, but the last few times I've been in there the original pump was reused.

Since you're taking the motor completely apart, I wouldn't worry too much about removing the pinion gear. If the crank bushing is standard size, the gear should fit through and it's a lot easier to get it off when you have the crank in your hands using a bearing puller (example from Amazon)

The gear on the cam should pop off with a small 2-jaw puller or steering wheel puller (using the threaded holes in the gear). You may also be able to put bolts in both holes, screw through until they touch the case, then slowly tighten each one-by-one in small increments, to push the gear off. It's interference fit with a keyway to keep it from turning.

As far as the timing marks are concerned, don't worry about where the crank or cam is as long as the dots/marks match up. The two dots on the cam gear will alternate every 360 degree on the crank (1 turns of the crank = 1/2 turn on the camshaft). That's why there are two dots on that gear. Since it all lined up on disassembly, you can be certain that it can go back on per the manual.

On the primary side, everything seems to put up a fight:
The alternator stator (and, it is an alternator with a rectifier under the seat) can be fairly tough to get out. It tends to be pretty tight against the bracket. The stator winding is pretty soft so try not to pry against it too much (unless you plan on replacing it)
The alternator rotor may need coaxing, though mine slides on/off pretty easily. There is a keyway to keep it from spinning in place.
The engine sprocket may also be a bit tight on the crank grooves. There is a spacer behind it, against the crank bearing that may or may not have shims between it and the sprocket. Also, the sprocket only comes out along with the clutch basket.
The clutch basket has a large nut holding it on to a tapered shaft. There is a tool that threads onto the center of the basket with a center bolt to push the whole thing out. There's a woodruff key on the tapered shaft also.

Marc

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780513 08/04/19 10:14 am
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I think the pump may be a "DD" type since it has bolts rather than screws holding the end plate on. I would take it apart and see if it has the dowels fitted between the top and the body. If it does have dowels and it turns freely I would be tempted to reuse it together with a new SRM OPRV or refurbished original.

The alternator stator wire issue can be fixed by thoroughly cleaning the area and using epoxy resin or similar to seal the area.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780522 08/04/19 11:42 am
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Just looked twice at your video, the second time with a late style idler gear on hand, it looks like you have a late style fitted, these are a bit wider than the pre 69 type (when they changed the bushes to that without a thrust face).
You might find (although I’ve never done this) that if you put the pinion back in place, put a straight edge (steel ruler would work) across the face of the idler gears, you might find it stands proud of the camshaft pinion.

I have one of each so should be able to find out properly for you. (Although ones sitting on my desk at work, the other - the late one is sat looking at me in my garage.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780530 08/04/19 2:57 pm
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Doesn't look like the idler is proud. I notice the cam-shaft gear is chamfered, unlike the idler.

Attached Files Screen Shot 2019-08-04 at 10.56.34 AM.jpg

'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780546 08/04/19 7:09 pm
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More on clutch parts and inside the oil pump: https://youtu.be/9Mnn5YDGvAw


'68 BSA Spitfire MkIV (w/ '67 numbers)
'81 Yamaha XJ550 Seca
'90 Yamaha FZR1000 EXUP
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780547 08/04/19 7:38 pm
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Yep deffo not a "DD" pump so looks like nice new SRM pump is in order.

If you want to remove the clutch without investing in a locking tool, the best option is to use a cordless impact wrench, even the 12v car wheel nut types will work.

Regarding the crank end float, I'm not sure if you can detect any play by pulling by hand, usually you have to lever the crank using a tyre wrench from inside the crank mouth and use a dial gauge on the crank end.

If you cant detect any end float or up and down play and your annual mileage is low, I think I would be happy to leave the bottom end it as is, fit the new pump & oprv as well as an oil filter in the return line. It would be worthwhile cleaning out the oil tank as sludge accumulates in the bottom and using new oil lines. Fit an alloy sump plate with magnetic drain plug.


Last edited by gunner; 08/04/19 8:29 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780561 08/04/19 10:00 pm
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It’s all subjective, it could be a perfectly good pump, or like any pump it could be worn and need the faces flattening. But I would look at getting it pressure checked.

The original style ball and springs are available to replace the ones currently fitted.


beerchug
Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780587 08/05/19 2:29 am
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Personally, I wouldn't put it back together without checking the sludge trap in the crank. It may seem daunting considering the investment, but the cost of putting it back together only to have something work itself loose in the sludge trap and clog up the works isn't worth it to me. Look at it this way: if you take your time and do it "right", it's likely to be the last time that it's apart in your lifetime (assuming this isn't going to be a daily ride once reassembled).

You may be able to borrow some of the special tools from a local shop if you know of one. Some you can make at home (e.g. glue a steel plate to a fiber plate to lock the hub to the basket), but others you'll need to correct tool for. I find that the clutch hub tool is handy not just on disassembly but also on reassembly. It often have to remove and reinstall the clutch basket a few times to get the alignment of the chain right, and the tool is really the best way to go.

Regarding removal of the stator, it's always seemed to have tight tolerances on the studs, so it has to come out as straight as possible which makes the process tricky as you can't easily grab the sections near the studs. Try as best you can to pry it away from the bracket with a plastic wedge or small screwdriver where there are gaps. Once it starts to move on one side, but sure to keep the opposite side sliding out evenly, otherwise it will bind on the opposing stud. It's a bitch to start but once you get a decent gap it gets easier.

Good luck

Re: Restoring (to a point) my '68 BSA Spitfire Mk4 [Re: David Kavanagh] #780704 08/06/19 11:19 am
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I don't know if this is possible and perhaps other will chime in but I was wondering if the sludge trap securing screw is visible through the breather hole at 2 o'clock or the idler pinion hole.

If it is visible then you might be able to determine whether its original or not and perhaps whether the sludge trap has been changed at some point. I believe the original screw uses a large flat and is secured by punch marks, later replacements sometimes used an allen headed screw so if you have this then the sludge trap will have been replaced at some point and may give you some some idea as to the state of the engine. Even if the screw was replaced with the flat type you should still see drill holes in the crank where the old one was extracted.

Last edited by gunner; 08/06/19 11:23 am.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
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