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Clutch Lever Problems #776536 06/15/19 11:04 pm
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Doug F Offline OP
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Howdy All, Finally almost got this thing together , All new pretty much everything, including clutch. Hooked the clutch cable up , got the rod in along with the Ball . Swing the lever into the slot of the plunger .
Connect to the cable , go to put the cover on & the lever is sticking out so far it hits the cover well before it comes close to attaching . Took the ball out And no clutch action at all . Put it back in And can't put the cover on. Have no idea what's the problem . is the clutch rod too long ? is the ball too big?. is there some other adjustment in the clutch itself ? Went right by the book . I'm going to try spacing the post that the lever is attached to out with a washer & hopefully that will be enough , really don';t want to start grinding things down & find out it' something different entirely .
Thanks in advance for any & all help.
Doug


'66 Lightning Engine, '68 Mark IV frame "bitsa"
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Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776541 06/15/19 11:22 pm
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You should be adjusting the clutch after the right side running cover is fully assembled. Meaning, the primary side should be opened or, at a minimum, the center bolt on the pressure plate should be backed off.

What's the status of your primary side?

Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776547 06/16/19 12:20 am
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Doug F Offline OP
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Thanks for quick response ,
Just got the measurements. the lever needs to come in a full 1/2 inch minimum just to clear hitting the timing side outer cover.
How much travel is supposed to be in the clutch. i'll have to take the primary cover back off . I'm pretty sure the center pressure plate bolt called for a torque spec. I'm looking now , it was a while ago that I did that part of the build. I looked like i had quite a bit of travel when I got the cable hooked up


'66 Lightning Engine, '68 Mark IV frame "bitsa"
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776551 06/16/19 12:42 am
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Doug F Offline OP
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There was a whole lot of wrong things on this bike when I got it . The ball under the plunger was missing & this may explain why . I suppose it's entirely possible it has the wrong length push rod as well .
I got the ball from SRM , I remember they had a couple different sizes of ball all specified for A65. the motor bottom is a 1966 Lightning , & I found out when I got the new head bolts it's got a '65 or earlier barrel & Head. . the frame is a '68 Mark IV according to the numbers on Draganfly . You wouldn't believe they actually had the the intake & exhaust valves switched ! so yes literally anything is possible . If I know how much travel is proper for the clutch then I can adjust by taking the right amount off the hump on the clutch lever I think would be the easiest . any thoughts?
Thanks
Doug


'66 Lightning Engine, '68 Mark IV frame "bitsa"
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776557 06/16/19 1:39 am
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NickL Offline
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If it was running with no ball in the actuator, the pressure plate centre adjuster would be wound right in.
That needs to be baked off, then you may be able to start to see if the pushrod is too long.
The ball in the actuator should sit right back in the aperture, if it doesn't, then it's too big.

Last edited by NickL; 06/16/19 1:40 am.
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776560 06/16/19 2:23 am
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Doug F Offline OP
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The ball sits in the plunger aperture about 1\2 way , seems like a good fit. it's a 7/32" ball . taking that out equals 5/8" at the end of the actuator lever. With the ball in and everything hooked up it all works good , no sticking & if anything to much travel possibly. haven't measured at the pressure plate yet but it looked like a good 1/4" or so. the only problem was getting the cover on. if it was running it wasn't for very long , not with the valves being switched among other things lol. rod looks in good shape & measures 11 1/8" which is what is being sold as replacement for those years. I think I'll try grinding little off the actuator lever
& see how it works out . it shouldn't take much and I think only at joint end of the hump to let it sit a little lower to start. the guy I got it from said his friend owned it , took it to a hop then it sat for 27 years in a garage. I'll need to re-do the inner timing cover gasket now,dummy me decided to try unscrewing the actuator lever until I heard the nut drop inside. LOL totally wasn't thinking . it'll be until I can get one in the mail before that but hopefully I'll have the clutch issue resolved by tomorrow.
Thanks again for advice, It kind of flew me for a loop , I'll chime in with an update
Cheers
Doug


'66 Lightning Engine, '68 Mark IV frame "bitsa"
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776561 06/16/19 3:01 am
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MarcB Offline
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The rod has one end in the timing side cover and one end on the primary side, behind the pressure plate. The total length is controlled by the adjustment on the primary side, not by anything going on at the arm.

Before you go grinding anything off, back off the adjuster nut and bolt on the primary side.

Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776564 06/16/19 4:23 am
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Mark Z Offline
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I assume we're talking about an A65 with the straight lever clutch release. On mine, and I believe they're all this way, the piece that holds the cable end and hooks into the end of the actuating lever adjusts in length. That is, it's actually two pieces that thread together. It may not be obvious because there's a spring around it.

The usual error is having it threaded on too far, such that there is insufficient throw on the lever. It must be adjusted such that the lever JUST REACHES the outer cover when relaxed.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776597 06/16/19 3:10 pm
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Doug F Offline OP
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Hi Mark Thanks , On mine the lever has a hump where it sits in the slot of the plunger. from everything I can see & without anything else hooked up just the lever in the plunger with the ball & the rod the end of the lever sticks out a full half inch too far to get the cover on . what you said is what I was initially thinking that I think. I'll try putting a washer under the lever post & see how it works .
Appreciate your input & glad I checked in before I started grinding off the hump. we will see .
Cheers
Doug


'66 Lightning Engine, '68 Mark IV frame "bitsa"
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776610 06/16/19 6:41 pm
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Doug F Offline OP
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OK, the post is not long enough to add any spacer or it won't thread all the way into the nut on the back. so, went ahead and ground down the hump on the lever, used candle black to mark where it's contacting so I could keep the contact point centered. got the lever to just miss hitting the cover. noticed quite a ding inside the cover where it had been hitting before LOL probably why they took the ball out & just put it back together . Had to make an insert to fit in the end of the abutment to lengthen it about a full half inch to equal how much lower the lever sits now . I'll need a new cable anyway just wanted to make sure it's going to work. It Does! getting little over 1/16" travel on the plunger . checked it !st gear , pull the clutch & turned the rear wheel easily , The hand lever is also worn so I'll get more travel with a new one of those as well. So All is well that ends well now I just wait for new gasket , meanwhile I can finally get back to wiring & all the other Fun stuff . WooHoo. Thanks for Helping me out , I kind of panicked & immediately
started looking for help , been just 2 headaches after another on this project. So Appreciate you folks
Cheers!
Doug


'66 Lightning Engine, '68 Mark IV frame "bitsa"
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776618 06/16/19 8:50 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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Why modify a part which I assume is original when you. Oils inturn shorten the pushrod ?


beerchug
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776622 06/16/19 10:28 pm
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gavin eisler Offline
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Theres a few things going on here. Stop grinding the op arm hump.
The clutch op arm may be bent, but for the time being consider this.
If the arm is poking out and hitting the outer casing , possibly the pushrod is too long, possibly the clutch plate stack is wrong, incomplete/ worn, possibly the centre adjuster on the clutch pressure plate is screwed too far in. The last thing to mess with is the hump . step away from the grinder. Have a good look at the clutch first make sure all the plates are present in the correct order and not warped or worn. just re read, you say all new parts, then shorten and re harden the push rod to suit. Sometimes op arms get bent , sidecar racers used to chop the case and bend the arm to get more travel and easy access.

Also , the cable abutment , there is a whole extra spring loaded clip piece that goes from cable end to operating arm, parts 31 32 33 in this diagram https://www.draganfly.co.uk/index.php/bsa/bsa/a50-a-a65/1966/category/246-gearchange-mechanism

Last edited by gavin eisler; 06/16/19 10:31 pm.

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Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776641 06/17/19 6:51 am
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Allan Gill Offline
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Exactly Gavin, is those kinds of mods which the next bike owner will refer to you as the DPO,

Change of note,
I believe the early star models didn’t have the spring extension piece in, I could be wrong but I believe the spring extension allowed the lever to be pushed back far enough so that it completely removed the pushrod from the lifting plate (removing all or any tension). With or without it doesn’t make a lot of difference I don’t feel, I had my clutch cable fail the other year when in Belgium, just getting the bike back to camp before snapping fully I took a walk and managed to source a pushbike cable inner and a “get me home” threaded nipple. As the head of the nipple on the motor end was too large for the spring adapter I had no means to grind it back, so it hooked it straight on to the main lever itself, Bobs now my uncle and it’s still on their about 3 years later. Really aught to make another inner for it but whilst other jobs are afoot....


beerchug
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776644 06/17/19 7:27 am
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NickL Offline
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Grinding the 'hump' off the arm will degrade the mechanical advantage of the lever.
When i used an old set of cases for racing we used to cut the cover away to GAIN
mechanical advantage and use a slightly longer pushrod or cut it and put a ball
bearing in the centre. It would stick out of the end of the cover about 1/2 inch.
Grinding the arm should not be necessary on a standard bike. Either the plates
are wrong or the adjustment/pushrod length.

Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776729 06/18/19 3:27 am
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Ignoramus Offline
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A helpful start point would be if someone knows (for certain) what the original length of the rod actually is ..........i have it noted somewhere but dont have time to dig it out atm

it could well be from whats been said that the rod you are trying to use is too long

can anyone post the ACTUAL original rod length? and we can go from there


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776730 06/18/19 3:41 am
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Doug F Offline OP
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Ok just read all the posts, Clutch is all brand new plates rubbers springs etc., I went with the lever modification because it was the easiest & fairly easy to find & cheap to replace . Yes I have the spring connection between the lever & cable. The ball was missing when I took the bike apart & the clutch didn't obviously work & there is signs of the the lever hitting the inside of the cover pretty hard . So I assume whoever
worked on it last like 28 years ago just took it out to get the cover on. You're most likely right about the rod length being wrong . But it's done I already ground off the hump & got it working . I adjusted as I ground to keep the point of contact at the middle of the plunger It seems to have a good pull . The cable is long enough to accommodate the lever sticking out a 1/2" too far to get the cover on and more importantly, it's extremely worn & And needs replaced, I only fitted an insert into the abutment as a temporary way to draw the cable back in enough to see how it worked after modifying the lever. Kind of wished I'd waited now
to see your posts about shortening the rod . I just figured the rod to be a standard length for all so maybe they put a lever in that was not for that engine. My time is limited for working on this thing & I went with the quick easy fix to get it going . the lever is straight . later on I may get a new Lever if it gives me problems & it looks like Draganfly has different sizes of rods or I can shorten it & grind in the dimple for the ball & re-heat treat It. Interesting about the clutch mod & cutting a hole in the cover to get more throw. I'm also missing probably 1/16"- 1/8" of pull because of the hand lever being very worn & warbled out . but even that being the case it works enough to spin the wheel easily in 1st gear. I don't think it's possible to miss adjust the clutch itself to cause the lever to stick out a full 1/2" beyond the cover without leaving out 1/2"of discs. But like I said there were signs of it hitting hard on the cover before & I've since put in all new clutch everything except for the pressure plate.
Thanks for all Of your input , I need to have more patience to wait & make make good use of it .
Cheers


'66 Lightning Engine, '68 Mark IV frame "bitsa"
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776733 06/18/19 4:16 am
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Mark Z Offline
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Wow, you work fast. I guess I didn't understand the problem at first - it sounds like the plunger will not move into the case far enough for the lever to clear the outer cover. I guess that means the clutch is assembled, right?

Too bad you had to grind a part; I suspect something else is wrong, but I don't know what. You don't by any chance have an alloy pressure plate, do you? In that case the pushrod has to be shortened. Or badly worn clutch discs? Someone already mentioned the pressure plate adjustment.

Oh well, as long as it all works now...


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776810 06/19/19 1:08 am
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Doug F Offline OP
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Ok I've already got another Actuator lever on its way , less than $10. needed a few misc. things from Draganfly anyway. As for the push rod length Mine is 11 1/8" Draganfly has it spec. for 11 /3/16. & all the others I found are longer so I actually think I have the shortest rod normally available. After reading all of the input here & getting my brains back in my head I will install the new Lever with the hump ,
And check to see if in fact I can adjust enough with the adjustment screw to let the lever come in & miss the inside of the cover . Hopefully I don't have to screw it all the way to the end to accomplish it.
thus leaving no room for variable adjustment wen I finally get the new Cable & Hand Lever. The pressure plate is looks to be standard (old & much use)But that at least would explain it. I guess I just couldn't see how when looking at a full 1/2" gap between the cover & the case that any kind of adjustment could be responsible. So I acted in haste . but knowing ahead of time I could easily replace the lever if need be.
Measuring at the plunger 1/8" or slightly more of movement in or out equals about 1/2" - 5/8" at the end of the lever so when I ground it down I drew a line about 1/8" following the curve of the hump & used that as a guide, then Candle black to mark the point of contact so to keep it contacting the plunger in the center . not just ground it off flat. The pull is actually not bad but absolutely it would be better to have it all proper . Thankfully you Folks are here with good advice & input to help inexperienced BSA builders like myself . It'll be probably a week before get the parts from Draganfly so I'll work on everything else 'til then .
for Mine is a Bitsa too Mark. 66 lower 65 or earlier upper. Finned rocker cover I think makes it a 68? 68 Mark IV frame but the forks are still the 66.
Thanks again For all your help & input, I will post for sure when I get it figured out as to what is the real cause & solution.
CHEERS !
Oh & yes the clutch is all assembled


'66 Lightning Engine, '68 Mark IV frame "bitsa"
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776822 06/19/19 7:08 am
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Allan Gill Offline
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Most suppliers will sell pushrods in one length, so usually they need to be cut and ground to length, the dimple in the end comes over time as the ball pressing on it work hardens the end, however you should still heat the rod until it is cherry red then quench in some old motor oil (although unless you have proper quenching oils then fresh oil or water will do). The worn lever won’t affect cable pull but will increase the weight of the clutch when you pull it.


beerchug
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Allan Gill] #776825 06/19/19 7:44 am
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Most suppliers will sell pushrods in one length, so usually they need to be cut and ground to length, the dimple in the end comes over time as the ball pressing on it work hardens the end, however you should still heat the rod until it is cherry red then quench in some old motor oil (although unless you have proper quenching oils then fresh oil or water will do). The worn lever won’t affect cable pull but will increase the weight of the clutch when you pull it.

Boiling water if water is all you have or the quench will not work.
Old cooking oil would be better than water.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #776828 06/19/19 8:49 am
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gavin eisler Offline
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Clutch pushrod length 11 and 1/16", from the 1970 manual.Do you have a manual?
With a fresh plate stack ( this would be new steel plain plates as well), no wear max thickness, the push rod centre adjuster on the pressure plate should be screwed almost all the way in, as the plate stack wears down this screw is backed out to maintain push rod end play.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 06/19/19 8:51 am.

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Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #778074 07/07/19 3:57 pm
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Doug F Offline OP
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Hi, All been a couple weeks I know, . Got the new lever in & adjusted . had to screw the adjuster WAY out. also noticed the locking nut fits 9/16 wrench not any of my whitworth sockets. so I suspect P.O.
may have tapped a screw in that's longer than original as the plates steel & friction are all brand new.Got it working though hopefully I'll have enough to adjust as they wear. Yes it was knee-[***] to grind the lever down I guess I just couldn't see how an adjustment in the clutch could make the lever stick out a full 1/2" beyond the case lol I will make sure to think things thru more thoroughly before acting brash. all well though other than all the cables they sell are too much free length. I've got 2 1/4" free on the old worn cable I have & had to make an insert to lengthen the abutment 5/16"in order for it to work & the new standard cable from Barnett has the same free length . I'll order a custom length from them . Meanwhile I'm waiting for a kickstart Quadrant as the one I have is chipped in the 1st & second tooth & it just locks up every time.. I have to rock it in gear to get it kicked
Hopefully I won't need to shorten the clutch rod, but if I do so be it. Thanks for all of your input Folks always appreciated.


'66 Lightning Engine, '68 Mark IV frame "bitsa"
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #778082 07/07/19 6:40 pm
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leon bee Offline
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A couple real minor thoughts: I have buckets and buckets of used A65 engine parts. Each time I build an engine I wind up going through the clutch rod collection. All used, I maybe have 20 of em, and everyone is a different length. Maybe a quarter inch or more from longest to shortest. You can pull it out easy with a magnet from the left side, so I just fuss till one works good. Meaning, I guess, just that used parts can mess you up. Almost as much as new reproduction parts!

And the clutch cable...........I see new ones where the engine end has a fitting that will never fit the original size slotted ferrule, so not sure what the plan is. Not use the slotted ferrule into the abutment piece?

Last edited by leon bee; 07/07/19 6:42 pm. Reason: Edit to say I'm talking about pre 1970
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #778084 07/07/19 7:25 pm
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Like most things on the A65, I think that ferule that fits into the end of the abutment is a lash-up part, probably so they could keep a longer inner cable from earlier models (maybe the early A65s also had this piece i don't know) I make my own cables from the venhill kits, I tend to use a cable ferule which fits perfectly in the cable sleeve. looks neater in my opinion.


beerchug
Re: Clutch Lever Problems [Re: Doug F] #778125 07/08/19 9:48 am
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"With a fresh plate stack ( this would be new steel plain plates as well), no wear max thickness, the push rod centre adjuster on the pressure plate should be screwed almost all the way in, as the plate stack wears down this screw is backed out to maintain push rod end play."

"Got the new lever in & adjusted . had to screw the adjuster WAY out"

Your push rod is too long, read the top paragraph in quotes again, and again, until you understand.

This horse is in danger of dying of thirst one foot from the drinking trough.

If the push rod centre adjuster screw protrudes significantly from the lock nut then it will foul against the centre inspection plug when the clutch is operated. The fix is to shorten the push rod and reharden the cut end, shorten by the amount of centre screw protrusion.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 07/08/19 12:59 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
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