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Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I #777364 06/27/19 12:43 am
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Robert Dentico Offline OP
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We had a meltdown and needed to replace the rotor and stator on the 850 Mk I... I went with new spacers, studs, nuts, washers as well as the rotor and stator themselves.

In trying to maintain the .008" air gap I am nearly there, the feeler gauge will slide all around the rotor gap until the 3:00 o'clock -ish area and then it tightens up. Not enough to stop it from moving in and out rather it binds up when sliding around the circumference. . The feeler will still go in and out at any point, plunging in I guess one would say however, that pesky sliding maneuver binds it when sliding around.

My though it that the feeler is catching on the field contacts (correct term...?) on the ID of the stator.

To ensure that I have a good gap, I am using a brass 0.010" feeler gauge.

Is it acceptable to tap the studs slightly to gain the clearance that I need...? Which would frankly scare me to death or drill the stator mounting holes out a couple of thousands larger to allow for adjustment in the gap..?


Thanks much,
Rob


"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '78 T-140 V Bonneville, '13 Electra Glide, a garage full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, 1991 BMW R 100 RT, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
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Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777379 06/27/19 6:34 am
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kommando Online Content
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8 thou is the minimum, I prefer more e.g. 10 thou but also with the crank in a few positions not just one. Bending the stud with a long pipe over the stud is less likely to crack the casting but still possible.

Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777390 06/27/19 10:01 am
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jaycee Offline
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interesting.my '73 commando was the same way from new.it never gave any trouble but that funny business about "setting over the studs" had ZERO appeal and i know it left the factory that way.some years ago i replaced the stator with a higher output version and the problem disappeared. i dont know if they make expandable reamers that small but if it were i i think possibly a cleanup ream a few thou o.s, would straighten things up and hurt nothing,

Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777397 06/27/19 12:55 pm
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Robert Dentico Offline OP
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k & J,
Yes, that moving the stud thing is just out of the question at least for me. I have a reamer that is sooo close but alas too large. After pulling the stator back off, resetting and moving the 0.010" feeler around this morning the clearance seems acceptable. I will rotate the crank and check in several positions to ensure that I really do have the proper gap all around.


On the subject of torque for the Rotor...

Is the torque value in the lower register sufficient enough for the rotor...? 70 - 80 lbs/ft puts me on edge as well. Both the center nut and lock washer are new so I do not ear that pulling the threads are possible but wow, 80 lbs/ft...?


I have been told that the Clutch center nut torque has been revised to be right at 40 lbs/ft vs the Tech manual figure of 70 lbs/ft...


Thanks much,
Rob


[Linked Image]


"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '78 T-140 V Bonneville, '13 Electra Glide, a garage full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, 1991 BMW R 100 RT, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777404 06/27/19 1:49 pm
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L.A.B. Offline
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The washer under the clutch nut looks like the earlier spring washer? If so, it should not be used with the tab washer.

Fit only the hardened 063447 flat washer with the tab washer.

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-drawing/207/chaincases-chains-sprockets-clutch-alternator
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details/16091/washer-clutch-fixing


Some owners prefer not to use the later tab washer because it has compressed and allowed the nut to loosen but some of this could be down to owners fitting the earlier spring washer with the later tab washer.


Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
I have been told that the Clutch center nut torque has been revised to be right at 40 lbs/ft vs the Tech manual figure of 70 lbs/ft...


70 lbs.ft. has been known to destroy the clutch circlip so 40-45 lb.ft. with Loctite is generally considered sufficient.

Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777411 06/27/19 2:50 pm
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Agree fully with all L.A.B. says above.

Also should point out that your alternator rotor is not correctly aligned axially with the stator. The rotor is inset too far, and the alternator output will suffer.

This misalignment could be due to the spacers being too thick between the stator and the inner chaincase. When fitting thinner spacers, be careful not to let the stator foul the chain.

.. Gregg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
[email protected]
Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777414 06/27/19 3:15 pm
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Robert Dentico Offline OP
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Gregg,
Uhhhg, copy that.

I was wondering if the recess was too great.

The new spacers measure the same as the old ones - 0.490" -ish. I could turn about 0.100" off and still not foul the chain. It is all torqued up now.

Recommended to do so...? Shorten the spacers...?

Thanks,
Rob


"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '78 T-140 V Bonneville, '13 Electra Glide, a garage full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, 1991 BMW R 100 RT, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777417 06/27/19 4:41 pm
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kommando Online Content
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Mine has the same recess and it works fine, but I do now run LED's and it is a 3 phase stator I use. Looks like if you move the rotor out then your nut may not engage enough threads to be safe.

Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777419 06/27/19 6:03 pm
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Such a mis-alignment is common on many British bikes. You'll see it on Tri, Bsa etc.

The only analysis of the mis-alignment that I've seen said 1/4" resulted in 9% reduction in output.

This may not matter to you much if the rotor is still healthily magnetised, especially without the demand of electric start.
But if you do have any charging concerns, it may be worth dealing with.

If that is the case, the best approach is a 180W 3-phase alternaror and reg/rect. Even just a new rotor may improve matters significantly.
Failing that, to make the most of what you have, you can move the stator inwards.
But take care, as the chain has some lateral movement on the sprocket, so allow for that.

You can also space the rotor outwards, but as Kom says, check on stud engagement.
Also, check on clearance between rotor nut and chaincase.
I'm not a Norton man, but I did this with my pre-unit Triumph when fitting duplex drive, and it happened to work out. Though I did fit a longer stud, as even the standard stud in the standard situation seems too short.
Hope it works out for you!

Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777420 06/27/19 6:33 pm
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gREgg-K Offline
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Originally Posted by Robert Dentico

Gregg,
Uhhhg, copy that.
I was wondering if the recess was too great.
The new spacers measure the same as the old ones - 0.490" -ish. I could turn about 0.100" off and still not foul the chain. It is all torqued up now.
Recommended to do so...? Shorten the spacers...?

Thanks,
Rob

Hi Rob, That sort of misalignment often happens because the new stator is a higher output type and is a bit thicker than the original one. Alignment is important because you want to couple as much magnetic flux in the stator frame, and to do that, the center-lines of the stator and rotor must be coincident. Norton even went to the extent of supplying rotor shims (p/n 06-0664 & 06-0665) to allow for that adjustment. Given that these shims were made in thicknesses of 0.010" and 0.036", you can see the importance they placed on getting it right.

As Koan58 suggests above, misalignment is not uncommon, but my own experience (time and time again) is that getting it right is well worth it in terms of power output. Machine the spacers as a starting point, and you may be able to move the stator in far enough. However, be careful not to get too close to the chain, and be sure to allow for crank end-float.

. Gregg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
[email protected]
Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777428 06/27/19 8:08 pm
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Robert Dentico Offline OP
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Well this is not the outcome that I was expecting...

Buttoned the primary up, added oil, installed the brake lever and peg assy.

Touched her off and No difference in charging...! Really.


So, I pulled the rotor wires out of the connector, tested each leg and got barely 20-25 V at 3000 RPM with the meter on 200VAC, engine running.

Next I tried the Rectifier - Pulled the Brown & Blue wire and tested the blade on the rectifier, 0.10 - 0.20 with the meter on 20VDC, engine running.

Is the rectifier toast...? Have I tested it correctly...?

I was able to establish a very good 0.010" Rotor to Stator Air Gap, is that likely part of the issue or no...?

To make this worse, Electrical testing is not my strong point.

Best,
Rob


"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '78 T-140 V Bonneville, '13 Electra Glide, a garage full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, 1991 BMW R 100 RT, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777430 06/27/19 8:48 pm
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Rob,
The 20 - 25V AC you measured: was that with your test meter connected across the two leads from stator ... that is, with neither wire going to earth?

From what you say, it sounds like either you have a wiring error, or a defective rectifier ... or maybe a duff Zener diode. Repeat the test with the Zener as well as teh Blue Capacitor disconnected and see what you get.

.. Gregg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
[email protected]
Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: gREgg-K] #777439 06/27/19 11:26 pm
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quinten Offline
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First , try new batteries in the meter .

Second , Your meter may be "too smart" for a raw ac reading .
It may be
expecting 50~60 hetz ... and average incorrectly ... for the higher hertz associated with higher revs .
.

Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777456 06/28/19 1:02 am
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Rob,

Perhaps try a simple test to determine whether or not your meter is misleading you as Quinten is suggesting: with the engine running and the rectifier not connected to the alternator, connect a 12V headlight light bulb to the alternator leads. Be careful not to rev the engine too high, but the brightness of the light should tell you whether your alternator is producing power. If that works, then try connecting the bulb across the + & - outputs of the rectifier, with them disconnected from the bike's harness. This will better let you assess the DC output.

I'm thinking that you may have a shorted diode(s) in the rectifier, which would load the alternator output. Alternately, the blue capacitor and Zener are both across the DC output of the rectifier; and a short in either of those components would give the DC readings you are seeing. Since the capacitor and Zener are connected in parallel withe the power output, you can disconnect them one at a time to determine whether they are at fault.
.. Gregg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
[email protected]
Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777457 06/28/19 1:04 am
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Robert Dentico Offline OP
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Hey Gregg,
That reading is from testing each lead from the rotor and the grounding the negative lead from the meter.

I tested the rectifier and that is pointing it being toast.

Would the rotor have been shot make the rectifier fail..? I realize that the original finned rectifiers are/were weak.

Leaning toward a Podtronics Unit.

Thanks,
Rob

================


quinten,
Interesting, batteries in the meter. Probably a good idea, I have never swapped them as I recall.

Should I be using an analog meter...?

The rectifier is looking like to culprit however, I will test to eliminate the Zener. If that were gone, I would think I would see overcharging, not low, correct..?

Thanks,
Rob


"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '78 T-140 V Bonneville, '13 Electra Glide, a garage full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, 1991 BMW R 100 RT, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777472 06/28/19 10:04 am
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L.A.B. Offline
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Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
So, I pulled the *rotor* wires out of the connector, tested each leg and got barely 20-25 V at 3000 RPM with the meter on 200VAC, engine running.

Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
That reading is from testing each lead from the *rotor* and the grounding the negative lead from the meter.

*stator*.

Let's try and get this straight.

As I understand it, you disconnected each stator wire separately and tested AC to ground with the other stator wire connected to the rectifier?


As it was an "AC" test, why specifically mention grounding the negative meter lead (see below)?


Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
Next I tried the Rectifier - Pulled the Brown & Blue wire and tested the blade on the rectifier, 0.10 - 0.20 with the meter on 20VDC, engine running.


I assume you mean between the blade and ground? Hopefully, that wasn't also with "the negative lead grounded"?


Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
Is the rectifier toast...?


Did you test it according to the workshop manual instructions?
http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/Repair/70up_Commando/70upCommando.pdf
Section J4.


Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
Have I tested it correctly...?


I suggest you read the manual, section J4, also....

http://aoservices.co.uk/info/ALTERNATOR_COLOURS.pdf

Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
I realize that the original finned rectifiers are/were weak.


Really!

Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777473 06/28/19 10:16 am
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jaycee Offline
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no a de-magnetized rotor just reduces the output.as for meters i have both types analog and digital (fluke).but cheap china crap can give erroneous readings. either type are ok.no such thing as a digital meter to my knowledge in '73 and never had anything but a simpson 260 in the navy. the zener controls the voltage by avalanching at its setpoint and disappating the surplus to ground as heat, is it shorted? of course it has NOTHING to control with a trashed rectifier. my zener never died.the basic system as built never gave me ANY trouble and a lot Lucas complaints i feel are undeserved.you can sub that rectifier with a better cube bridge rectifier with much less cost

Last edited by jaycee; 06/28/19 10:28 am.
Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777483 06/28/19 1:02 pm
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gREgg-K Offline
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Originally Posted by Robert Dentico

Hey Gregg,
That reading is from testing each lead from the rotor and the grounding the negative lead from the meter.
I tested the rectifier and that is pointing it being toast.
Would the rotor have been shot make the rectifier fail..? I realize that the original finned rectifiers are/were weak.
Leaning toward a Podtronics Unit.
Thanks,
Rob
================
quinten,
Interesting, batteries in the meter. Probably a good idea, I have never swapped them as I recall.
Should I be using an analog meter...?
The rectifier is looking like to culprit however, I will test to eliminate the Zener. If that were gone, I would think I would see overcharging, not low, correct..?
Thanks,
Rob


Rob,
Your post interchanges the names of the two components comprising the alternator. The "rotor" is the magnetic/circular part that rotates with the engine. The "stator" is the part with wires, that is static, and bolted to the chaincase.

It is unlikely a Lucas stator would damage the rectifier. That said, a shorted rectifier could damage the stator by demanding excessive current, as would a short circuit to ground anywhere in the wiring harness. Same thing with the blue capacitor and/or Zener if they were to fail to a short circuit.

Please try the tests I outlined yesterday and let us know how you make out.

I think installing a PODtronics is your next step, and most likely to succeed.
.. Gregg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
[email protected]
Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777544 06/29/19 1:39 pm
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Robert Dentico Offline OP
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LAB & Gregg,
Yes, of course I had mistakenly called the Stator wires Rotor... brain cramp... It was a test, you passed.

So I did test according to the manual and the result is indeed the Rectifier, new Podtronics on the way.

I may still turn about 0.090" off the Stator spacers to set the Stator in closer and absorb some of the recess of the Rotor, might as well gain all the charging that can be acquired. I need to drain to primary, pull the cover and take very good measurements but as I recall there is plenty of room before fouling on the chain, making certain not to set it too close.


Thanks,
Rob


"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '78 T-140 V Bonneville, '13 Electra Glide, a garage full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, 1991 BMW R 100 RT, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777551 06/29/19 5:41 pm
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Peter_Joe Offline
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I fabricated 3 aluminum spacers that are 3/8 inch high which brought the stator much closer to the center than the original 1/2 inch long spacers. I could get the stator even more centered to the rotor by making the spacers shorter. However, there's a good chance that the stator's resin would hit the threaded stator mounting pads of the inner primary chain case. If one wants to make the spacer shorter, the excess resin on the stator could be ground away using a Dremel grinding tool or something similar.

Here is a picture of my alternator with the 3/8 inch high spacers:

[Linked Image]


Peter Joe

Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Peter_Joe] #777560 06/29/19 6:52 pm
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gREgg-K Offline
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Good work, Peter. The really important thing is to get the centerlines of the rotor and stator coincident. Since the stator's resin covering makes it thicker than the rotor, the alignment is not always easy to see. That said, the alignment on Robert's alternator was clearly "off", because one of the poles of the stator is quite visible .

I like the small bracket you have at about 3 o'clock ... much friendlier for the stator's cable.
.> Gregg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
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Re: Rotor to stator air gap - '73 850 Mk I [Re: Robert Dentico] #777607 06/30/19 11:54 am
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Dave Comeau Offline
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Back from the INOA national Rally in Michigan after 800+ mile banzai run back home with my truck and trailer (over 15,000 lbs GCVW).
While there one of my tech sessions was on "rotors"...

Rotor is 26mm wide and 74mm diameter. Pix shown below.
HEX center carrier orients the 6 lode pieces (magnets).
The armatures above the magnets focus and direct the magnetic field from one lode to the other.
North polarity always comes out of the armature above the keyway. The polarity then alternates N-S-N-S-N-S-
Whole assembly is cast inside aluminum alloy while lode pieces are dead as a door nail.
Machined then magnetized.
Typically around 2,200 gauss for new Lucas and have measured 2,300 for a Sparx.
Have measured old and abused as low as 1000 gauss.

[Linked Image]

The STATOR is 14.5mm wide for regular stators and 16mm for the 3 phase. OEM Lucas stators armature metal cores are 75mm diameter ID.
There appears to be way to much unscientific obsession as to alignment or positioning of rotor within the stator.
As long as the stator width is anywhere with-in the width of the rotor armature there is full magnetic transfer and therefore full electric generation.


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,

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