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Boyer Mk IV good? #776223 06/12/19 10:56 am
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The 3rd and final Trispark has come to the end of its days (3 in 13000 miles). Time to replace with something that stands a good chance of lasting, as well as working well.

I'm thinking of a Boyer micro Mk IV (I can get one for about £95 which seems good). I'd be interested in any reviews / opinions based on experience before I make my mind up though.

I'm also pondering a Pazon, but I don;t know who sells these in the UK or which model / type to go for. I'm not interested in anything I have to use a computer to set up!


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Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776224 06/12/19 11:13 am
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Originally Posted by Tigernuts

I'm also pondering a Pazon, but I don;t know who sells these in the UK or which model / type to go for. I'm not interested in anything I have to use a computer to set up!


Pazon Sure-Fire is the approximate equivalent and set up procedure is similar.
http://www.pazon.com/files/PDF/PA2.pdf

Pazon Altair and Smart-Fire are more expensive digital alternatives.
http://www.pazon.com/ignition/ignition-products/

Plenty of sources in the UK for Sure-Fire.
https://burtonbikebits.net/pazonignitions/
https://www.rexs-speedshop.com/product/pazon-ignition-for-british-twin-cylinder-motorcycles/
http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffypazon.htm




Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776234 06/12/19 12:26 pm
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I have installed 10-12 Pazon Surefires.
Good instructions, easy to install, good performance.
Reliability first class---no failures.
HTH

Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776245 06/12/19 4:18 pm
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htown Online Content
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+1 Pazon surefire. Have them on 5 bikes.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776252 06/12/19 5:16 pm
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If you want to repeat the Trispark experience then the Boyer MK1 will provide similar fried electronics inside the timing cover wink .

[Linked Image]

Some lessons are worth learning not repeating.





Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776262 06/12/19 7:19 pm
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Blimey Kom! Have you had Time Team excavate your shed?

I've not seen one lke that before, even in the early/mid 80's I was installing separate black box Boyers. When does that date from?

While we're Boyer bashing, I'd say that I've known, and still know of many Boyer (Mk3&4) installations that satisfy the owners needs (though the Pazon is an improved version for more money). You pays yer money and makes yer choice, maybe on factors such as warranty period, perception through media such as this site, and of course chinese whispers.

I don't think that reliability has been a problem with Mk3&4 Boyers. Of course many units have been damaged and blamed by clumsy installers/reverse polarity technicians/over-current coils etc, and I can well imagine that they, like other businesses, have taken many hits to avoid negative reviews.

I know of many Boyers installed 20-30 years ago still going strong. Many of the moans about Boyers derive from the unit's (Mk3) sensitivity to low system voltage. Below ~10V ignition timing would go chaotic/fully advanced, which showed up disastrously some times on E-start machines.
I believe the Mk4 addressed this issue? I've not owned an E-start.

If a non E-start machine annoys a Boyer by low system voltage, surely the problem is with the electrical system, not the Boyer? To fail to address this, but instead to hope a more low voltage tolerant Pazon alternative will address it for you is fantasy IMHO.

So I what I'm saying is, if you want what may be a better product with a higher cost, go for it.
If you're trying to solve low voltage ignition issues, you would be better off dealing with the low voltage first.
Once that has been done, I think you'd struggle to tell Pazon and Boyer apart, in usage.

Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776270 06/12/19 11:18 pm
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To paraphrase RF Whatley, "the installation of an EI is only as good as the wiring and charging system on the bike"


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: JubeePrince] #776281 06/13/19 12:21 am
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Originally Posted by JubeePrince
To paraphrase RF Whatley, "the installation of an EI is only as good as the wiring and charging system on the bike"



Or in the case of my two Pazon Smartfire failures, both were pick up units, one was poor quality control and the other was, well, poor quality control..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #776289 06/13/19 3:30 am
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike

Or in the case of my two Pazon Smartfire failures, both were pick up units, one was poor quality control and the other was, well, poor quality control..


To paraphrase Gomer Pyle, "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me!"

I bought a pair of AMAL 930 Premiers a year or two ago. Had to spend an hour or two sorting them to make them usable. A whole new meaning the phrase DIY, these days.

Steve


'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776292 06/13/19 4:19 am
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I've installed some Premiers this year and was pleased to see that previous issues had been corrected. Even the float height didn't need adjusting. Hope it stays that way. I believe it will since AMAL went to so much effort to improve their product. I keep finding things they have fixed like the slides which were redesigned to prevent the clip from coming off the needle. Not that it was such a big problem. I've only had one pop off in all the years I've been riding and wrenching on these bikes, but all these little things add up.
I won't comment on the Boyers since I stopped using them back in the analogue days due to the incompatibility of their electrics with typical weak British charging systems. They may well be a good product now.
Too bad that HB has had bad luck with the Pazon. I hope that was just a one (or two) off situation. My luck has been excellent.
I haven't seen a Power Arc system for the Triumph yet. However, I would guess that the average Triumph owner wouldn't pop for nearly 500$ for an ignition....just saying....
Cheers,.
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776293 06/13/19 4:53 am
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I'd pop $500 if it came with a fuel injection system and you could use a consult cable to map the power curve....but I'd want at least 24 bit and prefer +32. But then we are talking TTP or Ignitech, and I have that on my '07 Bonnie. So maybe unnecessary on our classic bikes?

Last edited by tridentt150v; 06/13/19 4:59 am.
Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: JubeePrince] #776309 06/13/19 10:31 am
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Originally Posted by JubeePrince
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike

Or in the case of my two Pazon Smartfire failures, both were pick up units, one was poor quality control and the other was, well, poor quality control..


To paraphrase Gomer Pyle, "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me!"

I bought a pair of AMAL 930 Premiers a year or two ago. Had to spend an hour or two sorting them to make them usable. A whole new meaning the phrase DIY, these days.

Steve


Of couse...And you would have thrown out a $500 Pazon Smartfire? It occured on the same bike...Repaired under warranty both times..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776318 06/13/19 12:24 pm
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No need to fork out $500, a Secu-3T will do it, new firmware just released does sequential ignition based on a cam sensor and trigger wheel with either one missing tooth or 2 on a 360 twin, plus it does injection if required.

https://secu-3.org/en/

I plan to use a VW cam sensor which is in an alloy cover that can be adapted to fit Brit timing covers and a steel trigger wheel rolled to get the teeth vertical to suit the VW sensor. The vertical teeth mean no worries about the taper depth in the camshaft.

[Linked Image]

Example of VW cam trigger wheels, plan is to do a 12-2 version.

[Linked Image]




Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776330 06/13/19 4:18 pm
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Very clever Kommando....When I built the race bike I was going to use something like that from a different Eastern European country...But at the time I was at a loss how to easily mount a pick up/sensor on a unit Triumph...I really wanted in on the crank and wasn't thinking about the points cavity...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776335 06/13/19 5:34 pm
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My Boyer Mk IV has done about 20 K miles, nae bother. In Scotland on the west coast with 100 inches of rain ayear , quite often in pishin rain, sometimes danglin from its mount when glue/ velcro let go, As far as i am concerned its a very good thing , weather proof and robust, runs down to 10.5 volts, starts with the lights on. couldnt ask for more. For the last 13K miles its been firing NGK plugs ( found in the bin, diesel fouled from a Z1 at the LBS).:sparking through Wassell / Lucas coils, I recently replaced the plugs with an old rusty set of NGK that had been in a damp shed for twenty years, hit them on a wire brush, burned out the old crap with a blow torch and fitted them, starts and runs great, they are still in. I was astonished. hats off to Boyer and NGK, still waiting for the coils to fail. I have kept the old plugs as spares they were still fine.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 06/13/19 11:35 pm.

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Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776339 06/13/19 6:11 pm
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Kommando, you do it to solve a particular problem, or "because you can"?

Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776356 06/13/19 10:47 pm
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I messed about with various setups (both commercial and of my own design) for years when i raced.
Including setups with knock sensors, vacuum feed-back, temperature compensation etc.
The gains to be had with just modified ignition setups are small. Fitting a small micro should make
the things cheaper these days but they are all more expensive.......
In all honesty, the basic old analog Boyer/Rita/pazon/vape etc. are adequate for these primitive old
engines in 99.9% of cases. The gains of complexity are mostly outweighed by the benefits of simplicity
as far as EI on old engines is concerned. Rita, Boyer, pazon etc all achieve a reasonable advance curve
based on engine speed and provide a reliable spark using a few discrete transistors and simple design.
Running one of those with a couple of decent coils is hard to beat for the average bike.
Just my 2c.

Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776362 06/13/19 11:46 pm
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The trigger system used on my preferred setup looked similar to the slotted cup that Kom shows,
I used either one or two slotted hall sensors from Honeywell on a plate that replaced the points plate.
The sensors were 125 deg c rated and proved very reliable although costly. https://www.newark.com/honeywell/sr16c-n/sensor-hall-effect-position/dp/86C0992
A better way would have been to actually drill the timing cover and sense either 1 or 2 fixed slugs on
the idler or cam gear using a mag pickup. (reluctor sensor) OR sensing the crank which is always the best way.
The caps on that board will be the first things to give up solid types would be preferable. (tants etc)

Comparing the techniques of modern electronic assembly with that of 50+ years ago is like comparing engines
of that era with modern types. Whilst encapsulated assemblies mounted in an area of high heat and vibration
suffer with the associated problems, many electronic setups and systems work in such areas these days.
I agree that such failures are a problem but as a small company the appropriate equipment to manufacture
and test such setups is normally not cost effective unless many thousands are going to be produced. It
then becomes an outsourced item relying on another company to do assembly and encapsulation.
The early Boyer unit shown was encapsulated in an epoxy which expanded and contracted at a rate which
stressed the components soldered to the board, many of the failures were leads breaking internally due to this.
The faults were 'mechanical' in fact. Most automotive electronic components sold now are rated at 125 deg+
and are of a very low mass surface mounted on boards. This method of construction is better suited to the
application but is a more sophisticated form of assembly requiring expensive machinery rather than manual
input. I am not trying to defend trispark but i thought at the time he introduced his systems he was being
very brave as a small firm with that approach.
Once again, just my take on it.

Last edited by NickL; 06/14/19 12:41 am.
Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: gavin eisler] #776363 06/14/19 12:12 am
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
In Scotland on the west coast with 100 inches of rain ayear


holy [***], that's a lot of water.

i thought malaya had a lot of rain, down in the tropics, but it only got 90 inches. maybe it just came down in bigger pieces




every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776375 06/14/19 1:44 am
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Nick, on a later Triumph unit engine could a crank position sensor be screwed into the timing hole behind the cylinders? Could it be arranged so it would be triggered by the TDC or 38 degree advance slots??


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776388 06/14/19 4:34 am
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You have a trigger wheel on the crank already, the engine sprocket, the issue is trying to find somewhere to fit th he sensor, This gives you the revs of the engine between the sparks. As you cannot have a missing tooth on the engine sprocket then you need a second reference point for syncing to TDC, the flywheel slots would be ideal.

Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776391 06/14/19 6:37 am
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You could use a proximity switch to sense the slot in the crank, but it would require a little
fiddling about to get the distance correct and then you'd have to differentiate between the
TDC and the 38 deg slot. Using the drive side is the easiest way, a 'flag' on the crank could
be sensed by a device fixed to the alternator housing. I tried a sensor fitted to the 'window'
in the primary cover that's used to time the engine and sensed the crank flag there, it wasn't
very 'elegant' but worked well. For simplicity's sake a single point at the required maximum
advance point is all that's needed.

Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776396 06/14/19 9:28 am
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Odd that Burton Bike Bits are charging a tenner les than Goffy for Pazon surefire kits. I'd still buy from Goffy though, having found BBB less than reliable to deal with.

Reliability and longevity are my primary concerns - I;m not bothered about fancy programmable advance curves etc, I just want an electronic ignition system that makes the engine work at least as well as points but without the bother, and which I can expect to keep working for tens of thousands of miles. It seems both the Boyer MkIV and the Pazon surefire will do that. I'm reluctant to fork out for a new dual output coil though, having paid good money for a pair of Trispark 12V coils only 7 years ago. It isn't clear, reading what I've found to read about the surefire, whether it is necessary or just preferable 9for some reason) to use a dual output coil - what difference does it make in practice?

I would never buy "genuine Lucas" products having just had the spade terminal snap off my B50's brand new condensor when I applied a very small amount of force to pull the connector off. It hadn't bee properly soldered and despite a generous splash of solder around the spade, there was none underneath it, just flux. Useless. I dug a 45 year old one out of my Trident bits and it worked a treat - it also fitted better because the bottom has a recess around the earth pole (the Wassell "Genuine Lucas" version has the bottom virtually convex, with nothing to locate the insulating washer).


If anything other than a blank space is visible here, something's wrong.
Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776399 06/14/19 10:43 am
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Originally Posted by Tigernuts
I'm reluctant to fork out for a new dual output coil though, having paid good money for a pair of Trispark 12V coils only 7 years ago.


12V coils?


Originally Posted by Tigernuts
It isn't clear, reading what I've found to read about the surefire, whether it is necessary or just preferable (for some reason) to use a dual output coil - what difference does it make in practice?



https://www.trispark.com.au/assets/files/Classic%20Twin%20Manual%20Final%20V8.pdf
"Caution: use the recommended Tri-Spark coils - wrong coils will damage. For Twins use two of our IGC-1006 six volt coils, 1.8 Ohm primary resistance. For Singles use our IGC-1012 twelve volt coil, 3.6 Ohm primary. Alternative for twins is our IGC-2012 dual output coil, 3.6 Ohm primary."

Same goes for Pazon and Boyer.
http://www.pazon.com/files/PDF/PA2.pdf
"For low compression ratio engines (less than 9:1), two 12 volt coils connected in series can be used, but we strongly recommend running with two 6 volt coils connected in series or one 12 volt dual output coil with a primary resistance of 3 to 4.5 ohms.

http://www.boyerbransden.com/pdf/KIT00052.pdf
"For low compression engines, two 12 volt coils (4 Ohm Resistance) in series are satisfactory, but for racing and high compression engines two 6 volt coils (2 Ohm resistance)in series, or one 12 volt 3.5ohm or more primary winding resistance dual output coil will give the best results."

Re: Boyer Mk IV good? [Re: Tigernuts] #776400 06/14/19 10:45 am
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You can run 2 x 12 volt coils in series. They will work that way with either the Boyer, vape or pazon.
They won't give you such a powerful spark as 2 x 6 volt ones but for most applications they will be fine.

The emgo 12 volt double ended coil is a good reasonably priced partner for the above ignitions so are
some of the aftermarket harly ones. Stick to 4-6 ohms if you go that way, less and they will get a little hot.

I've always found BBB to be very good myself, i've used them for 25+ years, but i understand your feelings about wassell gear.
I still wouldn't let it put me off buying a vape setup though, as they are only a wholesaler of the product.

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