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B44 wet sumping. #775282 05/31/19 8:37 pm
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Dave Martin Offline OP
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I have been having issues (see my previous posts) with the scavenge side of the oil pump not doing its stuff. Stripped the damn motor 3 (or is it 4) times, all looks good, blown all oilways clear, including blowing back through the pickup holding the ball up with a bit of wire. Pump nice and flat, not distorted, new gasket. While motor was apart but with pump fitted, I filled the sump and turned motor over with a drill, oil came out of return line. Re-assembled motor, not oil returned to tank!! Huh?

I did notice that when blowing air through the pickup (in the direction of oil flow) I could only blow the air slowly, if I gave it a bit too much it felt like the ball was blowing up the pipe and sealing the pickup closed. I am suspecting that this is what is happening with oil...…. on a spare motor I have this does not happen.

Previously someone said that you could drill out the ball. My question is how much of a problem will wet sumping from the bike being left standing will be if I do this?
Alternatively is there a way to remove this valve for proper inspection?

Right now if I remove the sump naff all oil leaks out, which suggests to me that this NRV does not do much, but if that is the case why did BSA fit one in the first place??.

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Re: B44 wet sumping. [Re: Dave Martin] #775291 05/31/19 9:31 pm
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quinten Online Happy
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The valve
"slows down" the oil drain back ...through the gear pump .
I would buy a new valve .

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Last edited by quinten; 05/31/19 9:43 pm.
Re: B44 wet sumping. [Re: Dave Martin] #775294 05/31/19 10:06 pm
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Dave Martin Offline OP
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Absolutely! where on earth did that image of the manual come from?? plus where did the image of the new valve come from?? how do you get the old one out??
I have searched but obviously not in the right place!

Re: B44 wet sumping. [Re: Dave Martin] #775297 05/31/19 11:24 pm
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Dave Martin Offline OP
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Duh! when all else fails read the manual …… never thought to look in the BSA manual! still would like to know where to get a new valve from, I see some on eBay but with a different image.

Re: B44 wet sumping. [Re: Dave Martin] #775300 06/01/19 12:09 am
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quinten Online Happy
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Lol . The web is your friend .
Pulling that little sucker out can be...easy or impossible.
... i would see if one of the site advertisers ... like BSA unit singles. ... has one
But i dont see it listed on there site ?

CCM , out of England seem to have them ? ... shipping , who knows ?
http://www.ccm-britain.co.uk/searchforapart/?desc=Scavenge&ptno=

1. One method of pulling ... is to lightly thread the inside-inlet ( short of hitting the ball )
2. Cut a piece of oversized tubing , longer than the pick-up ... and that will slide over .
3. Add a washer(s) to cap the tube .
4. Now Thread a bolt into the lightly threaded pick-up tube ... tightening a bolt of the right length
against the (oversized tube )
... theoretically extracts the scavenge tube .
( if this method works ... the part maybe able to be cleaned and reused )
Sometimes some crap can be lodged in the valve, like gasket goo , that flushing with solvent will not remove .


Last edited by quinten; 06/01/19 2:08 am.
Re: B44 wet sumping. [Re: Dave Martin] #775335 06/01/19 6:46 am
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Getting the little sucker out is problematic, heat does not help much as it and the case are alloy. You end up drilling most of it out and prying what's left out. Best to have a replacement before trying as preserving the old one is impossible.

Re: B44 wet sumping. [Re: Dave Martin] #775339 06/01/19 8:14 am
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Allan Gill Offline
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If your able to have a series of solvents to hand, IPA/toluene/ or gasoline/kerosine using any of those squirted up with the ball held up could easily soften any sludge, if should run back past the ball and out again. Or if you disconnect the return line at the tank you could attach a pipe to the siphon tube, with a tray underneath the sump and start the bike up, the oil will drip into the pan and the pump should pull the solvent/fuel up and flush the return line. At the top end instead of returning to the tank, have it depositing into a bottle instead. Dropping the tube into the oil after to purge the line with oil and flush out as much of the solvent/fuel as possible.

If you do elect to use solvents, watch your paint work!


beerchug
Re: B44 wet sumping. [Re: Dave Martin] #775363 06/01/19 1:56 pm
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I have a bunch of those scavenge valves in stock ( 41-0624 ). As well as just about any other part that would ever be needed for these bikes. As kommando says, you have to destroy them to get them out.

Peter


check out: www.bsaunitsingles.com
2500 BSA part numbers with inventory in stock just for the unit singles!
Re: B44 wet sumping. [Re: Dave Martin] #775384 06/01/19 5:35 pm
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Dave Martin Offline OP
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GOT IT WORKING!!!!!!
Took the scavenge valve out without destroying it using the extractor as described by quinten, it worked a treat.( BTW a 6mm tap cuts a nice thread in the valve without having to drill and a 9mm 1/4" drive socket is just right for the tube.) and found that the pin in the top of the valve was missing, the ball WAS indeed being sucked up and blocking the hole in the casing. I noticed that the scavenge valve was driven completely into the casing, not just up to it's shoulder. Removed the scavenge valve from the spare motor, again without destroying it, it was just fine, pin intact. Installed it just up to it's shoulder. Started the motor and saw the most beautiful sight know to man, a good flow of oil returning to the tank! (spurts at tickover, solid flow at revs)

Thanks to everyone and I will be in touch soon with yet another order Peter!

Re: B44 wet sumping. [Re: Dave Martin] #775389 06/01/19 6:53 pm
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Well done and also to Quinten for the suggestion, its added to my list.

Re: B44 wet sumping. [Re: Dave Martin] #775398 06/01/19 9:02 pm
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Dave: Nice work. The real lesson is that you persevered and sorted it out before the engine was ruined. I wonder where the pin went. Could it be stuck somewhere between where it should be and the the pump?

Gordo


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: B44 wet sumping. [Re: Dave Martin] #775437 06/02/19 1:14 pm
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Dave Martin Offline OP
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just musing …….. I wonder how often these pins actually do break but go un noticed. The valve I removed from the spare engine certainly showed wear on the pin in the valve. As I said the broken valve had been driven ALL the way in, when the oil flowed the ball had nowhere to go but block the hole in the casing. If it had only been driven in to the shoulder on the valve it would have left a "chamber" between the valve and the casing allowing the ball to rattle around a bit and not block the hole(??). If the valve usually gets wrecked when removing the busted pin may not be noticed (??).
The lube system on this bike had been messed with at some point in its life, the pump for instance is 3 years younger than the rest of the engine, indeed the motor is a few months younger than the rest of the bike.

Re: B44 wet sumping. [Re: Dave Martin] #775438 06/02/19 1:33 pm
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On my B44 sump there were only 3 studs, the hole for the 4th was undrilled just looked like fresh unmarked casting, must have left the factory that way. The fix was a self tapper screwed through the sump plate and the crankcase sump 1/2" away from the 4th hole. Was this done at the factory or at the dealer when the inevitable leak appeared ?

No longer surprised what I find inside an engine !!!

Re: B44 wet sumping. [Re: kommando] #775448 06/02/19 5:06 pm
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quinten Online Happy
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Dave , First of all , congratulations .
You did an excellent job of tracing down an odd
Oil return flow problem .

Quote
just musing
as you have observed, the valve is the simplest of designs.
The drill angle at the bottom and gravity provide a ball seat .
Coincidentally , the drill angle at the top can provide a ball seat too ... if the flow lift is
Sufficient ... and the cross bar is missing .

It would be fairly complicated to "port" the upper engine casting
... so the ball couldn't seat ... under high flow ... as a secondary default flow guarantee .
So the integrity of that little cross bar is pretty important .

Its easy to imagine the ball just lifts off and rests against the crossbar ,
But in all likelihood the ball probably repeatly hammers into the crossbarr
and flutters from one side to the other .
The simplicity may help in it not clogging with debris ... but also limit its lifetime .



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