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Swing Arm Bushing Help #774023
05/17/19 6:42 pm
05/17/19 6:42 pm
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 16
Wyoming, USA
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Doug F Offline OP
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Doug F  Offline OP
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Wyoming, USA
Hi All, Finally getting the frame together On my A65 build , the swing arm bushing seems frozen to me. So when I install the swing arm into the frame & tighten it , the ends of the bushings are rubbing & working into the frame plates when the the swing arm pivots. Haven't had any luck finding any info. about this anywhere. just info. about bushing removal etc...
Can anyone tell me how much movement the silent block rubber should allow I'm worried that as the suspension gets work it's going to work holes into the frame on either end of the swing arm.
Was thinking about fitting a thin washer on the ends to protect the frame ? Also if I do work the old bushings out ther's no mention of where to get or how to install new rubber as it certainly is destroyed in the removal process.
Any help is always much appreciated
Thanks.


Nothing Like getting those OLD things running like NEW
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Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774025
05/17/19 6:56 pm
05/17/19 6:56 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,560
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy

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Allan Gill  Online Happy

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West Yorkshire
What’s rubbing the outer or the inner cage? The inner cage should clamp between the frame, when tightened movement by hand would be difficult. Because of this you should really preload the suspension before tightening the nut. ie, have the bike complete, have someone sit on the bike with the front brake on whilst you tighten it.


beerchug
Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774029
05/17/19 7:23 pm
05/17/19 7:23 pm
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 16
Wyoming, USA
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Doug F Offline OP
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Wyoming, USA
Thanks for reply Allan
The ends of the inner bushing protrude & seat against the inner frame . When I tightened the nut & check to see how it pivots I can see the bushing moving along with the swing arm. So I took it back off & sure enough There are wear marks in the frame from pivoting the swing arm up & down aprox. an inch or so. My manual shows no torque spec. for the swing arm nut.
Installed the spindle off the frame using a spacer to seat up against the ends of the bushing & tightened up the nut pretty tight to see how much movement I get before the bush starts to rotate along with the spindle. Looks like maybe 1/8" - 1/4" at best


Nothing Like getting those OLD things running like NEW
Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774032
05/17/19 7:31 pm
05/17/19 7:31 pm
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 16
Wyoming, USA
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Doug F Offline OP
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Sorry I worded that wrong
1/8"-1/4" movement of the bush inside the swing arm so any more than that & it will rotate along with the swing arm & rub into the frame


Nothing Like getting those OLD things running like NEW
Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774033
05/17/19 7:35 pm
05/17/19 7:35 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,560
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy

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Usually they are a brush fit when putting into the frame, you don’t really want to be tightening any part of the frame to the point where your “pulling the frame in” this would create a guitar string effect and will amplify any vibration may even induce fracture but this isn’t something I have seen. The guitar string effect is same when mounting the engine, it should be shimmer into the frame with distance pieces or washers. I’m not sure of the sizes but possibly some thick crank shims on each side of the swingarm will provide the sufficient packing required. But yes that inner sleeve wants to be locked tight against the frame plate.


beerchug
Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774034
05/17/19 7:40 pm
05/17/19 7:40 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,560
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy

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West Yorkshire
Originally Posted by Doug F
Sorry I worded that wrong
1/8"-1/4" movement of the bush inside the swing arm so any more than that & it will rotate along with the swing arm & rub into the frame


I’ll retain the last message in case I misunderstood at all. If the inner cage is clamped tight (and you haven’t had to pull the frame to do it) then you will get some movement from the swingarm up or down, you shouldn’t get any lateral movement (side to side) from the swing arm, the arm will move as mentioned but will try and return to its start position, it’s not too dissimilar from winding up an elastic band on one of those airfix toy aircraft. Hence tightening the spindle when the bike is preloaded.


beerchug
Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774037
05/17/19 8:36 pm
05/17/19 8:36 pm
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Posts: 16
Wyoming, USA
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Doug F Offline OP
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Wyoming, USA
Thanks, No side play noticeable. feels secure only very minute pulling of the frame to tighten. for now anyway My fear is that after it's all together as I ride & work the suspension that pivoting of the inner bush
against the frame will wear into it & create end play & weaken as well. I get the damping effect of the rubber but it seems like it should allow for more movement & the bush should not move on the spindle
thus rubbing into the frame but that the swing arm should pivot around the bush instead. so that the bush doesn't pivot & rub against the frame working a groove into the metal. do you see what I'm getting at ?
So in my opinion it seems as thought the bushing is frozen up inside the outer . does that sound right? have you encountered that before ? sure have not found anyone talk about it.
Or could it be the rubber has hardened to the point it won't allow enough pivoting for the suspension? As I noted before I've seen listings for new bushings but no mention anywhere about the rubber, other than that it gets destroyed upon removal of the bushings.
Thanks lots for your help & Advise


Nothing Like getting those OLD things running like NEW
Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774043
05/17/19 9:15 pm
05/17/19 9:15 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,560
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy

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West Yorkshire
Don’t wish to appear rude but I think your over thinking this. The silent block bush is probably the wrong name as it isn’t a bush as all in the conventional sense, so named bush because it seperates the inner and outer at a fixed distance. To get any real movement takes half the weight of the bike plus rider weight, you really would struggle to move it by hand and the more it moves the more restriction it applies on itself. From 69 they changed the swing arm to a proper bronze bush system. So you then get smoother movement, lasts longer and a more possible feel with less chance of lateral play.

If the nut is tight enough though the bushes won’t move. If it’s any consolation it’s quite possible that the bushes in mine are the originals, I’ve certainly never changed them and the bike was in pieces from the early 90’s


beerchug
Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774045
05/17/19 9:27 pm
05/17/19 9:27 pm
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 16
Wyoming, USA
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Doug F Offline OP
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Wyoming, USA
Ok 1 more question then.
After doing more reading , about the bushings. & I admit I feel a little ignorant for asking. But the Rubber part is actually part of the Bushing itself then? seriously I was thinking in terms that the rubber was inside the swing arm & the Bushings were pressed into it. My bad just not getting my head wrapped around it correctly & not noting the book tells you they are inner & outer bonded together with rubber.
Just thinking about it all wrong , makes perfect sense now. Looks like I'll be needing to renew the bushings. I believe the rubber must be hardened to the point it's lost elasticity
Thanks again for help


Nothing Like getting those OLD things running like NEW
Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774079
05/18/19 5:13 am
05/18/19 5:13 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,757
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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Owego, NY, USA
The rubber is sandwiched between an inner and an outer metal sleeve. The inner sleeve fits snugly on the swingarm pivot and the outer sleeve fits snugly in the swingarm. As the swingarm pivots, the rubber twists. With time and corrosion, the inner sleeve becomes bonded to the swingarm pivot and can make it quite difficult to remove. If you have removed the swingarm pivot already, you're one step ahead. Getting the bushings out of the swingarm is the next hurdle. The inside of the swingarm is shouldered, so you can't get a drift on the bushing from the other side. Often the bushings need to be slit and peeled out. It's relatively easy to get the new bushings into the swingarm.

The only "silver lining" is that you'll probably never have to do it again.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774102
05/18/19 3:30 pm
05/18/19 3:30 pm
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 16
Wyoming, USA
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Doug F Offline OP
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Wyoming, USA
Thanks Mark
Read a few tips about getting those things out. if I do go that route I'll try drilling out in between the bushings to get the inner freed from the rubber & try first pressing t out with the drill press.
I may go ahead & try using it the way iyt is & the pull it & check it for wear at the ends. It sure seems to me that the inner should not be pivoting with the swing arm & rubbing into the frame
but everyone says these things last forever so maybe I'm not seeing it right .


Nothing Like getting those OLD things running like NEW
Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774116
05/18/19 7:59 pm
05/18/19 7:59 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,560
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy

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West Yorkshire
I'd be very surprised if the swing arm is actually rubbing the frame, it's very close but shouldn't rub the frame, the inner tube is a tight fit to the frame however. Unless your getting side play the rubbers are enterally fine.

If your not convinced, change them. The only thing I would say is get them from a reputable supplier, there is some junk out there and the two inner tubes don't line up when fitted.

The inner tubes tubes touch in the middle, the outer tubes don't... If that helps


beerchug
Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774129
05/18/19 10:28 pm
05/18/19 10:28 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,866
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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New Jersey USA
Unless the rubber has perished from age and/or oil mist then I would leave them be.
Getting them out of the swinging arm is a real pig of a job.
The couple that I have done over the years I needed at the end to burn the rubbers out and then remove the outer sleeve from the swinging arm.
On one occasion the smoke was such that some idiot neighbor called the fire brigade!
IMHO--only do this job if you really have to!
HTH

Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774167
05/19/19 7:58 am
05/19/19 7:58 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,017
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Online content
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Sydney Australia
And unless you have owned the bike from new sp there fore know it's history, the swing arm rubbing on a frame is generally because the swing arm is bent from geting T-boned by a car or stepping out sideways into a pole.
They really are quite rugged .
The bloke who T-boned me wrote off his car while I managed to finish the days work with the bike running a bit crab.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: BSA_WM20] #774170
05/19/19 8:24 am
05/19/19 8:24 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,560
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy

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They might be heavy but they were built to last....


beerchug
Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Allan Gill] #774217
05/19/19 7:39 pm
05/19/19 7:39 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 194
Sverige
Pelle Offline
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Sverige
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
you should really preload the suspension before tightening the nut. ie, have the bike complete, have someone sit on the bike with the front brake on whilst you tighten it.


Good advice Allan, I'll keep that in mind when the "new" swingarm goes on my bike in a month or so. Didn't think of that the last time, but it makes sense considering the way silent blocs are supposed to work.

Re: Swing Arm Bushing Help [Re: Doug F] #774230
05/19/19 9:06 pm
05/19/19 9:06 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,592
Vermont
Jon W. Whitley Offline

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I might just be missing it but what year A65 are we talking about here ?


Jon W.


1957 6T Thunderbird 650
1968 T100R Daytona 500
1971 TR6R Tiger 650
1970 BSA A65F 650
1955 Tiger 100 - Project


Moderated by  Allan Gill, Jon W. Whitley 

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