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Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773078 05/08/19 10:55 pm
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The 7016 cam was designed to give the same characteristics as the cam fitted to the later thruxtons without having to go to
the larger followers. The original was the bsa 'spitfire' profile on a triumph blank. (6897 or something similar, check on Hoppybikes)
These were fitted in the later thuxton replacing the 4220 used earlier, this was originally fitted to some t110's but customers complained
about the lack of idle and the noise so was discontinued. The 4220 had no ramp. The original 'spitfire' did..
The 750 used the 7016 which has quietening ramps with a mild exhaust cam also with ramps.
The same inlet profile can be used on the exhaust (7017) giving a 'full-race' setup, moving power up the band a fair bit.
The 7016 uses an 8 thou tappet clearance not the 2 or 4 used by the 3134. The 7017 uses 10 thou i think as it's the same profile but on the exhaust.
Using the 7016 inlet with a 3134 exhaust is a good compromise, the 3134 also has quietening ramps.
Most if not all triumph cams since the early 60's have quietening ramps. (Although you wouldn't think so, would you?)

Having messed about with the thruxton cams and followers in the 70's when racing a pre-unit morgo outfit i have fond memories
of trying combinations of them. (I always preffered the 6897 inlet with 4220 exhaust running the large thruxton 3in radius followers)

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Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773097 05/09/19 1:37 am
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That advertisement must be in error. It states that the 7017 is a 3134 profile.
It's your bike, do what you want.
If it was mine, I would experiment with different valve clearances. Tighter clearances move the power up the scale a bit. Looser seems to increase mid range.
I've done it before on my old beaters just to see what would happen. I've finally settled on the recommended clearances for the cams I have, just so I don't have to remember some non standard settings.
It's news to me that any Triumph cam other than the stated ramp cams and the 4220 had ramps. The 4220 was intentionally specified one year only for the '62 6T, then later for the Thruxtons exactly for that reason.
I had a '62 6T and my cams were shot. I ended up with the T110 cams used in the '61 6T instead and was always a bit disappointed in the increased noise. Remember, the 6T retained the iron head all the way into the 60's because quiet motors are more desirable to the touring set. Ramp cams were introduced with the alloy head to reduce tappet noise.
Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773103 05/09/19 3:10 am
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...hi Koan, as mentioned before, this is a 79 with 79 inlet camshaft (7016) and similar on the exhaust no 3134 here hence the clearances. Again, manual says 0.008 for inlet with the STD camshaft and the spitfire is the standard camshaft in the inlet.

hi HT, again, 7017 is a mild touring camshaft and as you know the factory also de tuned it.

With all the T140 guys here and no one says if they hear the valves clattering or do not...

--About the profiles, is like Nickel is saying.

Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773114 05/09/19 6:02 am
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Hi Reverb, I ride often with many 650. Most have the 3134 cams from new. Like the Bonnies had. I ride with a few T140 guys. We were discussing this a while back & comparing noises.

I will say without exception T140 motor is way noisier. The clatter is about half again more. Most T140 have piston clatter as well as the valve noises. The piston clatter to me sounds very much like a very noisy valve. A very hard harsh ticking. I have heard piston noise on T140 where you'd think the motor would blow up, but they do not.

On a cold motor I hear the piston noise slightly like a ringing bell. But with a rattle with it. This is at idle speeds. Reving cold when riding away in about 1/4 mile the noise is greatly reduced as the pistons come up to temperature. When hot the noise is less & bell noise 100% gone. I can hear lots of rattles at 4000rpm. I don't know if from pistons, valves or both.

I ride to friends house often. 15 miles at 60-65 mph. Then leaving freeway, down a long hill about 1.5 miles, 25mph speed limit, so on compression braking all the way. Near the bottom of hill the motor cools. I can plainly hear the difference in piston rattle.

Worn valve guides can make a noise similar to loose valve adjustment. So it's hard to say what you are hearing. I've never seen a motor blow up from piston noise or loose valve guides.

We used to put racing springs in valves back in the day in attempt to increase RPM. I've not noticed any difference in noise from just stronger springs at normal RPM. At high rpm didn't notice difference in noise then either.

I have question. What difference does tappet radius make regarding valve noise? I have no idea. All the bikes had R tappets. Changing cams made the motor sound different, maybe more noisy. I never personally installed the cams so I can't really say.

After riding 40+ miles on hot days, the motors get really noisy. Both the 650 & T140 with T140 again more noisy. Same bikes on cold day like 60f much quieter.

So I don't know what to tell you about your bike.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773130 05/09/19 10:25 am
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.....Modified OHV car engines used for racing,mostly V-8's,the valve lash is adjusted hot at operating temperature...An engine spends very little time running at ambient temperature, so valve lash cold isn't so important so long as there's some...Anyone ever risk burnt fingers to check hot lash on a Triumph ?

Bill HT said once that synthetic oils make a Triumph engine sound nosier...I also believe this....Don, the guys you ride with, is the club called the "Piston Knockers" ? LOL...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: Hillbilly bike] #773174 05/09/19 6:52 pm
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
.....Modified OHV car engines used for racing,mostly V-8's,the valve lash is adjusted hot at operating temperature...An engine spends very little time running at ambient temperature, so valve lash cold isn't so important so long as there's some...Anyone ever risk burnt fingers to check hot lash on a Triumph ?
LOL...

Yes. blush
Had to do it, just to know. The clearances closed up quite a bit, by the way, but not to nil.
Cheers,
Bill



Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773175 05/09/19 7:09 pm
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"Back in the Day" in UK in the 1960s if your engine seemed noisy then you were not going fast enough!

Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773191 05/09/19 11:02 pm
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The 7017R is the 'full-race' version of the exhaust cam, using a 7016 profile.
The 7017 is the standard 'tame' cam.
The 4220 was not a particularly 'hot' cam if used with standard followers, it was markedly
improved by the big foot followers of the thruxton type.
The big foot followers also helped with valve train wear a fair bit.

When we used a triumph for racing,, we always checked the valves when hot, same with nortons or beezers.
These old crates are like lumps of rubber when hot you can't rely on the 'factory settings for street use' specs.

Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: NickL] #773194 05/09/19 11:28 pm
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Originally Posted by NickL

The same inlet profile can be used on the exhaust (7017) giving a 'full-race' setup, moving power up the band a fair bit.
The 7016 uses an 8 thou tappet clearance not the 2 or 4 used by the 3134. The 7017 uses 10 thou i think as it's the same profile but on the exhaust.


No! The 71-7017 cam is the standard T140 exhaust cam, ie: the mild profile, completely different to the inlet and with a recommended clearance of .006". The hot exhaust cam with the same profile as the the 71-7016 inlet is the 71-7017R. Just one letter different, but a very different cam. I think it is the 71-7017R exhaust cam that Reverb has got. These are considerably 'hotter' than the E-3134 / Q profiles, just for the record.

EDIT: Oh, now I see you're saying exactly this! I was quoting from what you said earlier

Last edited by Tigernuts; 05/09/19 11:33 pm. Reason: Clarifying (I hope!)

If anything other than a blank space is visible here, something's wrong.
Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773201 05/10/19 1:02 am
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Hi TR7RVMan,
what you say about the valve guides is interesting; did not know about that but I think that is the case when the guide worn out is too much ¿?
I think that I could have one guide letting the oil to pass but not smoke; however, I have a pesky oil leak by the spindle of the gear foot lever. I changed the O ring there two times but that do not work; also bought the 80s bike seal as a retro fit but does not fit (seems that the factory enlarged the cover hole to fit the seal) so I do not know where this oil can be though I do not see how can drained from top...

-Are you guys saying that is possible that in cold I put the clearance at 0.008 and then hot could be more light there? hence the clattering?
One thing to mention is that the rocker arms were lightened.


Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: NickL] #773327 05/11/19 6:02 am
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Originally Posted by NickL
Like HT, i don't like rattly motors. 90% of the time with triumphs it's not the actual tappet/valve clearances
that make the noise but the timing gears/pinions. These were a 'select-on-test' item at the factory and
were tried on a jig before being used as a set. .

They were for many years. Later these jobs were eliminated and cam gears were fitted as they came up the line.
Still wasn't as much clatter as an A65, but few noticed.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773328 05/11/19 6:11 am
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The most effective thing I ever did to reduce valve noise was to put some leaded fuel in the bike. Too bad that's no longer an option unless you have access to a private airport.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773589 05/13/19 7:11 pm
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Hi reverb, I did a 225 mile ride Friday with some friends. John rode his '69 Bonnie. I use ear plugs some & no ear plugs some. Compared noises. The valve noise on both after 50 miles was lots with my bike about twice as noisy. The motor clatter at 65mph from my bike no ear plugs is lots. Again it's normal. So again I don't know what you are hearing.

Regarding the shifter spindle oil leaks I don't have very much experience on left foot shift covers. Just a little. I have a few thoughts.

The shaft is continuously being bathed in oil. The oil is both liquid running down inside of primary cover & a mist of oil. At the same time there is a small crank case pressure in timing cover from the breather system. So anything not sealing perfectly will leak.

I've seen one case where leak was actually from the outside of bushing where shaft goes through. Is it possible the o-ring is ok & leak is from outside of bushing? In this case the bushing was removed & loctited back in. Cured leak. I ride with a few guys left foot shift & they do not leak from shift shaft. These are early type seals. Bikes are '76,77,79 that I'm involved with.

You need to get a correct diagnosis on exactly where the oil is leaking from.

The late seal must be used with late bushing. Seal 57-1656, Bushing 57-7055. But I don't know if the late bushing can be retrofitting into earlier primary. That is same seal as kick start seal. I don't know if the early shifter is same diameter as the later. The shifter shafts have different part #s.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773604 05/13/19 9:34 pm
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Since this bike has been hotrodded, it might have had the cam gears either lightened, or pre unit ones (much lighter and narrower) could have been used. Either will increase noise.

I have in the past entertained the notion of making a noise reducing idler gear. It is done on other machinery to take up the slack in gears. The gear is sawed in half, and springs(normally) are used between them to push each half slightly in the opposite direction.

Too many things to do.....not enough time.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Black Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773620 05/13/19 10:34 pm
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You say two things up above that caught my eye. Because of the language differences, it is a bit hard to figure out exactly what you are saying, but I think you are saying perhaps one of two different things:

1. "Plenty of valve noise. I decided to check it again to have peace of mind. I removed the tank etc and illuminated the spot pretty well to see if the error was me using the fillers but do not. As all we know the angle is not the best so in one part you have the intended measurement BUT the other portion of the tip is not exactly right.
I want to mention that I have the adjusters with the rounded tips that in theory help a bit.
The point is that is very difficult to decide if you need one less or one more thicker filler gauge..."

2. "-Besides the valve noise, the other thing is that there s no a way to really takes good measurements due to the bad angle. The valves tips only touch a spot of the adjusters..."

In looking at that, it seems like you might be saying one of two things--either, the top of the valve has a pock-mark from wear, or the rounded end of the adjuster is worn where it bears on the valve.

If you have a pockmark in the top of the valve stem, you can never get the clearance set properly, using a feeler gauge (not "filler"), so long as the pockmark is there, because the feeler gauge will cover the pockmark, and you will always set your valves with too large a gap (by the amount equal to the depth of the pockmark). One solution to this problem is to set it by the fraction of a turn on the adjuster--essentially using the adjuster as a vernier caliper, using the adjuster threads to measure clearance. The thread on the adjuster is about 40 turns per inch, around .025 or so per full turn. .008 is about 1/3 of a turn back from touching. It is not all that critical--.001 one way or the other won't really matter, especially since you are not sure of the proper clearance to start with. To fix this problem properly, you can buy hardened lash caps from Kibblewhite, but you will need to shorten the valve the thickness of the lash cap to keep the geometry consistent.

Or, if you are saying the rounded head of the adjuster is worn with a flat spot, you will never be able to get it properly adjusted because when you turn it even slightly, the adjustment will change. If you have this problem, you can never get them adjusted correctly and you will need to replace the worn adjusters.

Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773749 05/15/19 2:07 am
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...hi TR7RVMan, yesterday I put 260kms on the black top with plenty of front wind at 105-120km/h yes; plenty of valves clattering and noise.
I checked the oil reservoir night before and saw a dubious foam on top. I mean, I used a LED light and kind of golden sparkles I had there but not something that you can feel with the fingers. The only thing that could be is one of the camshaft bush but I do not think so.
Then in the morning I rode about 40 kms to another town and checked again but no foam and no golden stuff...so I proceeded with the large commute.
Today I bought oil and the car filter and I will do the change tomorrow; I need to buy a 13/16 socket for the crankcase nut.

-that leak is from the spindle itself so between the spindle and the bushing; plenty of drops in a long trip
Did not know about a later bushing; may be try to retrofit one? As mentioned I bought those seals 2 times but are bigger than this bush.

Hi HT, I opened the timing cover before the accident and if I remember correctly (I still did not found the photos) the gears are very good and not lightened.

Hi Linker48x, as mentioned, no damage in the valves tips and the adjusters are new and may be is like TR7RVMan is saying about his bike too so may be all are too noisy if you crank it up for few hours.
Man, put a LED light from the sides on these later models pointing directly to that spot and you would see what I mention about the rocker angles etc. Never ever due to the set up (the design) you will see all the valve tip touching the adjuster, only in a spot.

Thanks

Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773758 05/15/19 3:45 am
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Okay. Couldn’t tell. By the way, I just read what I posted and I got it backwards somehow—the adjusters have around 25 tpi, or about .040 per turn, and .008 is 1/5 of a turn.

Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773760 05/15/19 4:57 am
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Triples and twins use 5/16-24 adjusting screws.

Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: linker48x] #773771 05/15/19 8:49 am
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Triples and twins use 5/16-24 adjusting screws.


Twins were 26 tpi CEI until early 1978 model year, to eng.(?X)02689.

24 tpi UNF from (?X)02690.
http://www.tioc.org/partsbookstriumph/pb-tri-1978-T140%2099-7003.pdf
pdf. p21.


Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773842 05/15/19 10:11 pm
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Sorry, it seems I got this wrong the last time twin rocker threads came up also. Maybe I should make the EF adjusters in 5/16-26 for twins so I can remember?
One problem is there is no ready source of 5/16-26 grade 8 set screws as a starting point. They would have to be made from raw stock so the cost will be more. Plus, it would need short valves to make room.

Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #773969 05/17/19 2:47 am
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...I returned today, so around 240kms with strong front wind with the engine running about 2:45 hours mostly between 100-120km/h
Plenty of slopes. Very difficult to hear something with that wind but I noticed a mechanical noise on the rockers when the engine was loaded like slope+front wind+not so much rpms but high gear and cranking.
I had the rear chain (and possibly the primary chain) too long.
I changed the oil "at the fly"; bought an oil filter wrench, a 13/16 socket and allen key etc and did the change before to take the road back here. Not so bad the residue there; oil looked old but correct.

Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #774007 05/17/19 3:31 pm
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Quote
but I noticed a mechanical noise on the rockers when the engine was loaded like slope+front wind+not so much rpms but high gear and cranking.


Being that you just described "lugging" have you considered the noise is detonation often referred to in the UK as "pinking"?


Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: DMadigan] #774021 05/17/19 6:22 pm
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Sorry, it seems I got this wrong the last time twin rocker threads came up also. Maybe I should make the EF adjusters in 5/16-26 for twins so I can remember?
One problem is there is no ready source of 5/16-26 grade 8 set screws as a starting point. They would have to be made from raw stock so the cost will be more. Plus, it would need short valves to make room.

To yet again quote Pete R, in his opinion the Triumph valve gear would benefit from a 2 mm longer stem. In any case, shortening the pushrods is not a problem, and I believe that the EF adjusters are so much kinder to the valve gear anyway, that a less than ideal rocker geometry would more be more than off set. If the adjusters provide enough swing angle of course. A competent machinist with a minimum of tools can easily shorten the valve stems if needed.
Aren't Norton crankshaft studs 5/16-26? I don't know what grade they are, but perhaps a possible source if the threaded portion is long enough.

Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #774054 05/17/19 11:09 pm
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Even it the Norton crankshaft bolts were long enough, they are probably too hard to cut a hex socket in the end for adjustment. I made up some pullrods for my triple clutch and had to buy a hex broach for the lathe. The same broach can be used on EF adjusters for twins.
The question is how far to go down the rabbit hole. I can source nitrided auto valves that can be machined to length but would rather go with 7mm stems which means guides also.

Re: valves clearance/rockers angle/adjusters [Re: reverb] #774060 05/18/19 12:07 am
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Hi Reverb,
It sounds like you've had a few good rides recently, so I'd guess there isn't too much wrong.
Try half the gaps and see what difference it makes, then go from there.
It seems your engine has been "tweaked" a bit, so bear in mind JohnH's comment about detonation and lugging.
Good luck pal!

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