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1965 A65 Timing side bush proud? (photo) #773303
05/11/19 12:43 am
05/11/19 12:43 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 76
VA USA
C
Chopper Rob Offline OP
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Chopper Rob  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 76
VA USA
Hey All,

1965 A65 has the timing side bush without the trust washer. Machine shop honed and installed the bush and the crank spins freely till I put a little squeeze on the cases. I have not put in the shims or shim cup in yet and wondering if this bush sitting proud could be the culprit? Seems on the later models the thrust washer sits down in the recess a bit. Anyway I appreciate any and all advice.

Thanks in advance,
Rob
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/6R6ojUDxoiuSZ5Nb9[/img]

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Re: 1965 A65 Timing side bush proud? (photo) [Re: Chopper Rob] #773310
05/11/19 1:17 am
05/11/19 1:17 am
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,479
Oceania
N
NickL Offline
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NickL  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,479
Oceania
The earlier a65 did have a thicker flange on the bearing as the crank was narrower than the later type.
There was no actual separate thrust washer as the end float was controlled by a ball race on the drive side.
That bearing is a one piece bronze one so is aftermarket, maybe the manufacturer expects the fitter to
machine the flange to suit the required 2 thou end float?.

Make sure the drive side bearing is seated well in the case and is going right home on the crank, normally
you have to fit shims and a cup (that is at least 25 thou) to get the end float correct . With the crank fitted and
the cases bolted up give the crank a whack on the timing side with a copper/brass/wood mallet you'll probably
find the crank isn't going home on the drive side bearing. OR fit the sprocket and rotor/spacer etc and tighten
them, this pulls the bearing onto the crank.

Last edited by NickL; 05/11/19 1:22 am.
Re: 1965 A65 Timing side bush proud? (photo) [Re: Chopper Rob] #773406
05/12/19 1:17 am
05/12/19 1:17 am
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 434
Chelmsford MA
M
MarcB Offline
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MarcB  Offline
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Chelmsford MA
Are you certain your crank is an early, narrow crank? The later cranks have a wider counterweight on one side, and a bit shorter DS shaft. My early crank is currently at the machine shop but I can get you specific measurements next week if you need.

Re: 1965 A65 Timing side bush proud? (photo) [Re: MarcB] #773591
05/13/19 7:47 pm
05/13/19 7:47 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 76
VA USA
C
Chopper Rob Offline OP
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Chopper Rob  Offline OP
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Posts: 76
VA USA
Thanks for the replies and for pointing me towards the drive side. The bearing that was in the drive side case was clean, spun free and silent, and appeared new. Now I know I should have been tipped off by the fact the bearing wasn't remaining stuck on the drive side of the crank when I removed it, but I somehow overlooked that only to finally open my eyes and realize the bearing is pressed directly into the case with no race. I removed the bearing and did a quick measure and its outer dimensions are the same as the standard race and it has a 1/18 center. Anyway new race and bearing ordered and hopefully things will go smoother once installed. As for the crank size I'm assuming its the correct one for now. It has equal size counter weights on both sides, and the DS shaft measures out the same as 4 other A65 cranks I have.

Re: 1965 A65 Timing side bush proud? (photo) [Re: Chopper Rob] #773594
05/13/19 8:14 pm
05/13/19 8:14 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,056
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,056
Isle of Wight, UK
"I should have been tipped off by the fact the bearing wasn't remaining stuck on the drive side of the crank when I removed it, but I somehow overlooked that only to finally open my eyes and realize the bearing is pressed directly into the case with no race. I removed the bearing and did a quick measure and its outer dimensions are the same as the standard race and it has a 1/18 center. "

It is unclear what you mean by this statement, that there is no race?

That the bearing doesn't stay on the crank suggests that perhaps the crank journal is worn a bit, but I can't see a connection, or even a meaning, of the race business.

Re: 1965 A65 Timing side bush proud? (photo) [Re: koan58] #773596
05/13/19 8:49 pm
05/13/19 8:49 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 76
VA USA
C
Chopper Rob Offline OP
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Chopper Rob  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 76
VA USA
What I mean by " There was no race" is that there was no race! grin

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwR9rFI3OBTQSFp4ckxmRlVnRGlucVg2TEdxc2xtbS1qdzBv

The bearing that was pressed into the DS case had the same outside diameter as the race would have and an inner of 1 &1/8", but it was just a one piece roller bearing NOT a bearing and race.

Guess whoever installed it didn't have a parts book, or maybe thought they were improving the original setup?

Either way I appreciate the replies.

-Rob

Re: 1965 A65 Timing side bush proud? (photo) [Re: Chopper Rob] #773600
05/13/19 9:20 pm
05/13/19 9:20 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,866
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

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New Jersey USA
Not sure that I understand that.
Do you mean that the rollers were rolling in the actual recess machined into the aluminum crankcase?

Re: 1965 A65 Timing side bush proud? (photo) [Re: Chopper Rob] #773615
05/13/19 10:15 pm
05/13/19 10:15 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,479
Oceania
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NickL Offline
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NickL  Offline
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Oceania
I sounds like you have a MRJ1-1/8 fitted which as you say is a one piece bearing, the correct one is an MRJA1-1/8 which is a 2 part one.
The one piece type is a fair bit cheaper to buy, that's normally why it gets used.

Either way the bearing should be fitted by warming the case to about 100 degs C. It should then drop in. If the crank is an easy sliding fit on
the bearing inner it will make setting up the end float easier as the assembly must be put together and taken apart a couple of times to set
the shimming up. You can then use a drop of loctite on the shaft when that's done.

You may have 4 late type cranks so the fact that they all measure the same is no guide. The early ones are narrower. It's about 30 thou or so.
It shouldn't present a problem though, there is normally at least that in shims and the cup on the drive side. It just means the crank will not
be running 'dead centre'.

Last edited by NickL; 05/13/19 10:21 pm.
Re: 1965 A65 Timing side bush proud? (photo) [Re: Chopper Rob] #773616
05/13/19 10:17 pm
05/13/19 10:17 pm
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 223
Frazier Park, CA
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Chris Johnson Offline
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Chris Johnson  Offline
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Frazier Park, CA
It sounds like you removed a ball bearing, expecting to find a roller bearing. From what was posted above, it would seem that the ball bearing is correct as that is what locates your crank (versus a floating roller bearing and thrust washer).

Chris

Re: 1965 A65 Timing side bush proud? (photo) [Re: Chopper Rob] #773656
05/14/19 4:30 am
05/14/19 4:30 am
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,318
arkansas
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leon bee Offline
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arkansas
Same here, don't quite understand the issue. As in, that looks fine to me, Most all what we would call 65 engines had ball bearing, works fine.

Re: 1965 A65 Timing side bush proud? (photo) [Re: Chopper Rob] #773690
05/14/19 2:27 pm
05/14/19 2:27 pm
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 434
Chelmsford MA
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MarcB Offline
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MarcB  Offline
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Chelmsford MA
Originally Posted by Chopper Rob
What I mean by " There was no race" is that there was no race! grin

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwR9rFI3OBTQSFp4ckxmRlVnRGlucVg2TEdxc2xtbS1qdzBv

The bearing that was pressed into the DS case had the same outside diameter as the race would have and an inner of 1 &1/8", but it was just a one piece roller bearing NOT a bearing and race.



Rob, you were expecting to find a roller bearing but found a ball bearing instead. The ball bearing is one piece pressed into the case and doesn't come out with the crank. What you had there was correct, and appeared to have been properly installed per your picture.

However, it still sounds like your crank is too "wide", which points to mismatched crank/cases. Based on your expectation of a roller bearing, I assume you're used to dealing with 66+ motors so it's entirely possible that every crank you have are later ones.

Did you measure the counterweights with calipers? There isn't a huge difference between the two sides (see http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbt...-vs-late-a65-crank-dimensions#Post767227 for my measurements of a later crank). I'll be picking up my parts at the machinist today and will have early crank measurements for you later if you still need them. I think total width differs by about .050" - .070".

Re: 1965 A65 Timing side bush proud? (photo) [Re: Chopper Rob] #773692
05/14/19 2:37 pm
05/14/19 2:37 pm
Joined: Dec 2002
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Chelmsford MA
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MarcB Offline
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MarcB  Offline
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Chelmsford MA
One more note: the inside of later cases are machined on the drive side by about .050", and the bearing "lip" (the section that the seal sits on) is also about .050" thinner. Early cases are "as cast" on the inside DS. Both have to be machined as adding clearance on the inside of the case won't help without also shifting the bearing over by the same amount.

It may be possible to machine an early DS case but I'm not sure I would trust anyone to do this.

Late cases with machined face:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UFbSkKLIK9Ikwg8u_jAC6N9DAaFgNYLy/view?usp=sharing

Re: 1965 A65 Timing side bush proud? (photo) [Re: Chopper Rob] #774224
05/19/19 8:34 pm
05/19/19 8:34 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,272
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

Parts Dealer
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Posts: 1,272
Lancaster, California
So do you have the late crank in early cases or is the crank bearing not inline with the bushing?


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