BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
The Bonneville Shop BritBike Sponsor
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum
| Spiders Cartoons, | DVD- Manuals & Parts books
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
ShoutChat Box
Buy BritBike staff a coffee
Buy BritBike's staff a coffeeStill here since 1996 serving BritBikers, just sayin..
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Member Spotlight
GTR
GTR
PA
Posts: 36
Joined: February 2012
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
E.Fox, 1hirider, Dan watt, Kevin Wils, Shorty
10699 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
franko 134
NickL 47
Popular Topics(Views)
896,115 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics66,861
Posts670,669
Members10,699
Most Online14,755
May 5th, 2019
Who's Online Now
36 registered members (998John), 402 guests, and 782 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Valve geometry? #772661
05/05/19 12:26 am
05/05/19 12:26 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,438
Crossville, TN
DavidP Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
DavidP  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,438
Crossville, TN
I'll be replacing valves, guides and springs on my '72.I'm considering using the later valves and the longer adjuster pins. Is the geometry better with the later short stems? Do the guides last longer with these?


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America


Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #772668
05/05/19 1:01 am
05/05/19 1:01 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,042
ca, us
D
DMadigan Offline
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
D

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,042
ca, us
The short stem valves allow you to use the T160 or EF adjusters which have more contact area on the valve which reduces wear.

Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #772670
05/05/19 1:12 am
05/05/19 1:12 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,356
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,356
New Jersey USA
For several years now every Trident head I have built I have used the mushroom head adjusters.
I think they are an improvement over the standard configuration.
But I am impressed with the elephants foot adjuster that Dave makes and sells and will use them on the next head I do.
Anything to reduce side thrust of the valve in the guide--as guide wear is one of the Achilles heels of the Trident engine IMHO.
HTH

Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #772673
05/05/19 1:42 am
05/05/19 1:42 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,747
Mississauga, Ontario.
A
Adam M. Offline
BritBike Forum member
Adam M.  Offline
BritBike Forum member
A

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,747
Mississauga, Ontario.
Use Kiblewhite guide and valves - much better quality than stock.

Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #772687
05/05/19 5:30 am
05/05/19 5:30 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,438
Crossville, TN
DavidP Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
DavidP  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,438
Crossville, TN
Thanks,
However, I had a look in my '74 parts book and the later rocker arms are a different part number as well. What's the difference there?
I'm OK with spending the money for different pins, but a whole new rocker set is not in my budget.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #772694
05/05/19 11:44 am
05/05/19 11:44 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,438
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Offline
BritBike Forum member
Mark Parker  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,438
Bega NSW Australia
Nitrided valves and K-liners work really well in my A65. The tolerances can be much tighter and the K-liners are straight and true. Plus you are not pushing guides in and out of the head. The more straight and true and close fitting the guide bore the less the valve rocks and the less wear.


mark
Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #772720
05/05/19 4:35 pm
05/05/19 4:35 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,042
ca, us
D
DMadigan Offline
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
D

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,042
ca, us
I am not positive but I think the difference is the diameter of the pin for the pushrod. T160s use a cup on top and ball on bottom pushrod. Earlier engines (at least to '72) have cup-cup pushrods. The adjuster thread is the same on both.

Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DMadigan] #772728
05/05/19 5:21 pm
05/05/19 5:21 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Online content
BritBike Forum member
L.A.B.  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted by DMadigan
T160s use a cup on top and ball on bottom pushrod. Earlier engines (at least to '72) have cup-cup pushrods.


It's T160s that have pushrods with a cup top and bottom and T150s that have a cup and ball.

https://www.triumph-spares.co.uk/t150-r3-pushrod-late-type-71-1238

https://www.triumph-spares.co.uk/t160-pushrod-71-3974





Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #772731
05/05/19 5:49 pm
05/05/19 5:49 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,042
ca, us
D
DMadigan Offline
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
D

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,042
ca, us
Sorry, yes, confused. Do you know if the ball on the rocker changed size?

Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DMadigan] #772737
05/05/19 6:55 pm
05/05/19 6:55 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Online content
BritBike Forum member
L.A.B.  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK

Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #772749
05/05/19 9:20 pm
05/05/19 9:20 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,438
Crossville, TN
DavidP Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
DavidP  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,438
Crossville, TN
Gentlemen,
The T160 doesn't enter into this. The ball-type valve adjusters and short valves came out in '73.
Reviewing my parts books, the parts numbers for the ball pin, push rods, and rocker spindle are identical for '72 and '74 models. Of course, the adjuster pins are different, but the lock nut is the same, 5/16" UNF. Therefore, the pins are the same thread.
However, the rocker arms are different, at least the part numbers are different. My concern is that there might be some slight difference to the angle of the rocker arms to compensate for the difference in the distance between the bottom of the rocker and the top of the valve stem due to the longer pins, shorter valve stems.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #772813
05/06/19 10:02 am
05/06/19 10:02 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Online content
BritBike Forum member
L.A.B.  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted by DavidP
Reviewing my parts books, the parts numbers for the ball pin, push rods, and rocker spindle are identical for '72 and '74 models. Of course, the adjuster pins are different, but the lock nut is the same, 5/16" UNF. Therefore, the pins are the same thread.
However, the rocker arms are different, at least the part numbers are different. My concern is that there might be some slight difference to the angle of the rocker arms to compensate for the difference in the distance between the bottom of the rocker and the top of the valve stem due to the longer pins, shorter valve stems.


Evidence I've been able to find seems to point to the contrary.
I believe "rocker" in the parts books actually refers to rocker assembly, therefore the rocker part numbers could have changed as a result of the different assembly the same as when larger diameter ball pins were fitted.

Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #772888
05/07/19 4:10 am
05/07/19 4:10 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,438
Crossville, TN
DavidP Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
DavidP  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,438
Crossville, TN
Excuse me, but there are FOUR INDIVIDUAL PARTS, numbers 23-26 in the diagram, called, "rocker levers." Six parts overall.
As fond as the Brits were of keeping the same part number for later versions, I think it's a safe bet that there is some difference between the two if they adopted a new part number.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #772892
05/07/19 6:29 am
05/07/19 6:29 am
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 9
Ash, Hampshire, UK
Esmerela Offline
BritBike Forum member
Esmerela  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 9
Ash, Hampshire, UK
David

As LAB indicated seems, it's all down the size of the "cahunas" blush

Last edited by Esmerela; 05/07/19 6:30 am.

[Linked Image]

The older I get, the faster I was
Re: Valve geometry? [Re: Esmerela] #772901
05/07/19 10:55 am
05/07/19 10:55 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Online content
BritBike Forum member
L.A.B.  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted by DavidP
Excuse me, but there are FOUR INDIVIDUAL PARTS, numbers 23-26 in the diagram, called, "rocker levers." Six parts overall.


Yes, triples have four different rocker assemblies, two pairs and two singles.

Originally Posted by DavidP
As fond as the Brits were of keeping the same part number for later versions, I think it's a safe bet that there is some difference between the two if they adopted a new part number.


If part of the assembly was changed due to the different adjuster (as it certainly did when the ball pins were changed, see below) then the part number is likely to have been changed.

Originally Posted by Esmerela

As LAB indicated seems, it's all down the size of the "cahunas" blush


That certainly seems to be the reason for the change of 'rocker' part numbers between 'small' (1/4") and 'large' (5/16") ball pin rockers from serial NE00262 as described in Triumph Service Bulletin 9/71 (Triple) although the ball pins were available separately they were part of the rocker assembly.

The part numbers listed in TSB 9/71 for 'small' and large' pin 'ROCKER ASSEMBLIES' and 'ROCKER LEVER' numbers in the parts books are the same.


Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #772922
05/07/19 4:46 pm
05/07/19 4:46 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,042
ca, us
D
DMadigan Offline
BritBike Forum member
DMadigan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
D

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,042
ca, us
You do realize that all this about different rocker part numbers does not matter since when you set up the valve geometry during assembly you will have to make corrections by shortening the valve tip, pushrod or raising the rockerbox with shims. Different base, head and rockerbox gasket thickness, variations in cylinder and head height, valve face and seat grinding, et cetera is going to change the geometry.
If you use the stock spherical tip adjuster all this does not matter much since the contact point will dig a pit in the valve tip where ever it needs to be. T160 flattened ball adjusters are a little more restricted in range and have a flat to contact the valve tip. The EF adjusters have the most critical adjustment because the ball has limited range of motion the the foot socket but they have the largest contact area with the valve which reduces the side thrust on the guide.

Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #773112
05/09/19 5:44 am
05/09/19 5:44 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,438
Crossville, TN
DavidP Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
DavidP  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,438
Crossville, TN
Thanks,
I guess I'll find out once the new valves arrive. I have decided to go with the later valves and adjuster pins.
I need to get feeler gauges with the bend in them. I remember how difficult it was to get a blade under the adjusters on my '74.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #773659
05/14/19 6:50 am
05/14/19 6:50 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,438
Crossville, TN
DavidP Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
DavidP  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,438
Crossville, TN
I presume that correct is when the pin is in line with the valve stem at half lift. If this is not the case one must vary the thickness of the rocker box gasket.
Are the copper ones thicker than the standard fiber gaskets?
And, how does this affect the sealing rings on the PR tubes?


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Valve geometry? [Re: DavidP] #773663
05/14/19 7:30 am
05/14/19 7:30 am
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 854
Great Southern Land
tridentt150v Offline
BritBike Forum member
tridentt150v  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 854
Great Southern Land
Yes the copper ones are thicker...about as thick as the covseal gaskets you can buy for the rocker boxes - but I haven't actually measured them, must do that one day. You will have to measure up your air gap and then decide what combination of fibre washers under the cups and PRT seals you will need. I actually had to use 4 x aluminium washers as well as the PRT seals and one fibre washer on my last build - but I have custom PRT's. Assemble the head dry with the head gasket in place and just firm up the 4 x outer bolts - have the PRT's in place when you do this. Then lift each PRT up until it fits inside the rocker as far as it will go and measure the gap at the bottom between the PRT and the cam follower block. Then start mixing and matching seals and fibre washers with cups etc until you have a combination that is approx. [from memory] 0.05" to 0.08" bigger than the gap you measured. This 0.05" to 0.08" is the squish you need on the seals = 0,025" to 0.04" on top and the same on the bottom.

Somebody might like to confirm the squish needed?


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | DVD- Manuals & Parts books
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership


Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1