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Anyone know about T150 main bearings? #771537
04/19/19 9:41 pm
04/19/19 9:41 pm
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Naarfuk, UK
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Tigernuts Offline OP
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I have received conflicting info re drive side main bearings for T150s. An eBay seller is advertising them (RHP made in England) with what he says is the "correct C3 clearance". I asked on here a while ago whether this was in fact correct and got just one reply, telling me it was not. I removed the original d/s main from the case today and found it is a C3, and it is the original bearing.

I'm pretty sure there are other Trident owners on here who have rebuilt Trident engines and know about this kind of thing? Anybody able to give some definite advice?


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Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771551
04/19/19 10:47 pm
04/19/19 10:47 pm
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Did it take some effort to get the bearing off the journal?
John Healy has posted several times on this question. It is all down to the fit of the journal in the bearing, and assuming the bearing housing in the case isn't worn.
If it is an easy slide fit onto the journal, you may be better with a CN.

Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771552
04/19/19 10:54 pm
04/19/19 10:54 pm
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...if the original is C3, I would put C3. In fact is always a safety thing in my book to have at least one C3 in an engine.
The Vespas have C3 but here the shops sells only CN for these bearings, so I ordered from India, SKF C3.
In 2 T140s one 78 and the other a 79 I put a C2/ C3 combo, not a CN/C2. Rolled bearings not ball bearings

Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: koan58] #771558
04/19/19 11:21 pm
04/19/19 11:21 pm
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Tigernuts Offline OP
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It wasn't difficult to remove the bearing from the shaft, though on the other hand, it wasn't remotely loose. The crank on these engines is pulled up against the drive side bearing by the primary drive sprocket and nut, so theoretically it ought not rotate and work loose. The timing side bearing is a surprisingly small diameter single lipped roller, but I suppose most of the work is done by the two plain bearings in between.

I am interested to know what the correct bearing is (C3 or CN) according to the factory. Did they make it up as they went along, as they so often seemed to have done? Or was it supposedly C3 or CN?


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Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771566
04/20/19 1:04 am
04/20/19 1:04 am
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You asked this question only a little while ago:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/767863/Searchpage/1/Main/80208/Words/%2BC3+%2BCN+%2Bbearing/Search/true/re-drive-side-main-bearing-and-t-s#Post767863

As I understand it, when the bearings were a serious press fit on the journal, the resultant swell of the inner race reduced the clearance of the ball race, hence the looser C3 was used.
With the triple crank (and possibly later twins?) the journal was ground perhaps 1/2 a thou smaller, and so requiring a CN bearing to end up with the same internal clearance.

Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: koan58] #771609
04/20/19 1:14 pm
04/20/19 1:14 pm
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Thanks, I do know I asked the question not long ago! The reason for asking it again is that I have doubts about the first answer, which was that C3 is not correct. Given that this engine hasn't been apart before, and I found a C3 bearing inside, I thought it would be good to get this cleared up, because others will possibly look at the earlier question's answer and take it to be correct.

Just so that it is clear, I asked the first time due to seeing the eBay advert. At that time, I didn't know what bearing was in the engine but thought that, if C3 was correct, I'd buy one while they were available at that price.

I'm not disputing what you're saying about later crank journals having been ground a tiny bit smaller etc. But Triumph must have (I imagine) fitted either C3 or CN or C2 bearings to T150V engines in 1974, and I was originally trying to find out which.

Does anyone on here know?


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Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771612
04/20/19 2:28 pm
04/20/19 2:28 pm
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henryanthony Online content
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Try this link - look for John Healy's response:

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/printthread/Board/2/main/58949/type/thread

And go to Google and search using the following terms:

T150 CN site:britbike.com

Or

T150 C3 site:Britbike.com

This research will take some time but you should find many threads with relevant information.

Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: henryanthony] #771620
04/20/19 4:59 pm
04/20/19 4:59 pm
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Thanks Henry, I've read the thread you gave the link to, which has some interesting & useful info from John H. What he says makes sense, but it still doesn't explain why my 1974 T150V came with a C3 (three circles) bearing. I have seen US based parts suppliers listing C3 drive side mains for T150s/T160s as well as CN versions, but so far without explanation for the choice (the part numbers given are the Triumph numbers as found in the arts books, either on their own or with C3 tacked on).

I don;t use Google any more (it wants me to sign up for it tracking my searches, which I don;t like the sound of). I use the Bing search engine and I don;t think it's as good. Your search terms just bring up loads of vaguely bearing-related stuff on that!


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Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771621
04/20/19 5:20 pm
04/20/19 5:20 pm
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...hello Tigernuts, is tracking because most probably you are using the google icon (and others) that came with the system; like in the cell phones. Also possible that you use chrome.
You need to use Firefox and put there every time: google.
Also is probably that your server has a "fixed IP"
Click on the left down icon in your screen, then you will see the box that says "search programs or archives", put there: %temp% it will appear the folder: TEMP, then erases all the archives that you have there; are useless and are monitoring what you are doing. There will be couple of archives that you cannot erase, let it there are the ones that the PC is using at the moment.


Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771627
04/20/19 6:28 pm
04/20/19 6:28 pm
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It occurred to me that Richard Darby aka 3D Motorcycles may know as much as anyone.

Unfortunately his website seems to be offline and his FB page doesn't show any sign of recent activity, so I don't know if he's still operating.

https://www.facebook.com/3dmotorcycles/

Maybe Stuart has a way of getting in touch?

Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771629
04/20/19 6:31 pm
04/20/19 6:31 pm
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kommando Online content
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Can you tell if the current C3 is original or has been replaced ?

3 circles does sound original

Why can't you go by what John has said.

1. An interference fit on the crank means you fit a C3

2. A sliding fit means you fit a CN.

If the crank is giving you a tight sliding fit ie in between the 2 conditions then gently relieve with emery cloth to a sliding fit and go CN.

Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771670
04/21/19 4:11 am
04/21/19 4:11 am
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I've been using Google since 1999 when it was recommended to me by a nun of the Sisters Of Mercy - a Christian hospital system currently known as Trinity Health. My responsibilities there were that of digital project manager. Since then, Google has tracked my Internet usage with no ill effects. If you expect people to answer your questions, even though they have been answered many times because of unfounded fear, then I wish you luck. The information you seek is available on britbike.com if you want to find it. If you wish to be spoon fed, I'm not your mommy. I could, however be had for a reasonable hourly rate.

Last edited by henryanthony; 04/21/19 4:28 am.
Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771699
04/21/19 5:02 pm
04/21/19 5:02 pm
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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Quote
I use the Bing search engine


Bing will track you in much the same way as Google does just in a different way.

If you don't want any ad tracking etc. try the DuckGoGo search engine see https://duckduckgo.com/ which claims no tracking at all.

No idea about the T150 bearing but as a rule of thumb I would try and avoid buying one from eBay, try a dealer who knows something about Triples.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771705
04/21/19 6:48 pm
04/21/19 6:48 pm
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Richard Darby's website is online today, so I guess it was just down for maintenance when I looked for it yesterday.

https://www.3dmotorcycles.co.uk/

It has all his contact details.

Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771723
04/21/19 10:50 pm
04/21/19 10:50 pm
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Hmm, some very odd responses here, plus some helpful ones. I see no need for the 'spoonfeeding' insults, Henry Anthony. Do you enjoy being gratuitously offensive?

The Google / Bing / other search engine tips I will take on board.

The bearing info - I think I've been misunderstood by at least some people on this. My aim is to get things clear on this forum. I asked the question in late 2018 and received the answer, from John H, "No". to my question about whether C3 was correct for this engine. I took that response at face value. Then I discovered that the factory-fitted bearing in my 1974 T150V is a C3.

I don't care whether the correct bearing that ends up in my engine is C3 or CN or C2 or anything else as long as it's the best for the application. But I do care about the accuracy of information published on this forum. If Triumph fitted C3 bearings as well as CN bearings, the correct answer to my original question was not "No", and to let it stand would be to allow the circulation of misleading information.

I merely want to get this cleared up. It is not a point-scoring exercise - I have been careful to avoid mentioning any names but others have made the original respondent's identity obvious so there's no point in keeping up the effort toward anonymity.

Can't anyone understand the importance of accuracy of information, especially when from trusted sources? I am NOT trying to blame anyone for anything - we all make mistakes, even if only by omission, and it should be no big deal.

As it happens, I'm taking my cases and crank to Richard Darby on Wednesday, for him to enlarge the oilways and do some crank work. I will take his advice on the best main bearings to use and if anyone's interested, I'll post his advice on here. He may well (in fact very probably will) know why some T150s came with C3 bearings while others came with CNs.


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Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771778
04/22/19 3:53 pm
04/22/19 3:53 pm
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The information I supplied for the correct clearance for a T150 engine came from Jack Shortland. Jack was the export parts manager for Triumph. After the workers took over the factory he went on to manage PS Motors supplying Triumph parts to dealers around the World.

Please consider: Unless you took delivery when brand new, assuming that the T150 engine was fitted with a C3 bearing by the factory can be a stretch. The use of the "dot" system had been abandoned long before 1974 for the "C" markings. The 1959 SKF catalogue, I will reference below, were using the "C" system to describe pre-fit internal clearance. I find the same reference in a 1974 FAG catalog, both to the use of the "C" system and the reasoning why different clearances are used subject to interference fits.

Also, these engines were made in turbulent times. BSA before them and NVT after they took over production of the T150. They were both hemorrhaging money. NVT because of the sit-in in Meriden. There were a lot of production decisions made that would not have been made in better times. If it truly was installed at the factory it could have been easily one of those: "Hey Ian, we have no money to buy proper CN bearings, lets use up those old C3 bearings we found in the back of the stores."

The use of a CN would be in line with engineering practices describe in all of the bearing manufacturers catalogs of the day. Reference 1959 SKF catalogue: Internal bearing clearance:
" All radial bearings— except single row angular contact ball bearings and taper roller bearings are delivered with a certain internal clearance which is greater than that which the bearing should have when running under service conditions. The reason for this is that when the bearing rings are fitted with an interference fit the bearing clearance is reduced due to the expansion of the inner race and/or the compression of the outer race." They go on to state that the contraction or expansion will be between 50% to 80% of the measured interference."

The point to remember here is the T150 the drive side crankcase/crankshaft was designed to allow the assembly to be removed without any tools. To do this the drive side ball bearing is a slip fit on the crankshaft. Thus only the outer race is in play when considering how much the pre-fit bearing clearance will close up. On a Triumph 650, which is where the C3 ball bearing comes from, both the inner and outer races are an interference fit. This is why they used a bearing with more pre-fit internal clearance in that application, and why is is not suitable for the drive side of a triple.

To add one thing. Remember the BSA/Triumph engineering group, driven by Umberslade Hall, would change the specification of a part without changing the part number. There are a lot of parts that come under this cloud!


Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: John Healy] #771796
04/22/19 8:13 pm
04/22/19 8:13 pm
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I'm sure you're right, John. The turbulent times at the factories in the mid-'70s must have led to all sorts of anomalies, and the occasional fitting of an incorrect C3 main bearing must have been among them. The sliding fit is how this engine was - not at all loose, but a very nice no-interference fit, which allowed the drive side case to be withdrawn from the shaft without drama (much to my relief!).

It looks indisputable that the correct bearing to put it back together with is a CN.

I have come across other oddities, such as a very unusually-numbered exhaust cam in a 1976 T140 that had definitely never been apart before.

If anyone in the future is searching for info on T150 drive side bearings, it looks very much as if the answer is that CN is correct, but it is not unheard of for the factory to have fitted C3s, regardless of which, the correct replacement is CN.


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Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771798
04/22/19 8:36 pm
04/22/19 8:36 pm
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I suspect this may be one of those things "it depends...".

First imagine the small but real variation of the journal diameter.
Then imagine the small but real variation of the bearing housing.
Then imagine the (hopefully) much smaller variation of the bearing ID and OD.

A quality builder will take account of all of those things, and fit a bearing accordingly.
I'm sure Richard Darby will do that. I'm sure that JohnH would do the same, if your motor was in his workshop.

I guess that sometimes just one simple answer doesn't satisfy, because of the variables which can conspire against each other.
I don't imagine for a moment that the fitters checked each housing, journal or bearing.
I can only imagine that if a check after assembly showed unusual resistance to rotation, that motor would return for further attention.
Bores and pistons were graded, so maybe bearing were too?

Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771817
04/23/19 12:56 am
04/23/19 12:56 am
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...viewed from other point of view: your bike is in working order since 45 years ago...how bad is that?


Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771825
04/23/19 2:12 am
04/23/19 2:12 am
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When fully assembled the inner race is firmly clamped against the crank shaft .
So you are not relying on an interference fit of the inner race on the crank shaft.
In fact you definitely do not want an interference fit as it would stop the inner race moving to give a firmly clamped rigid assembly.
If the inner race is tighter than a tight sliding fit then you need to do what Kommando says.
Best not to use dry emery paper but linish the crank shaft.
To do this you need a strip of used fine emery paper.
If you don't have used fine emery paper then take new fine emery paper and rub it together.
Then with your used fine emery paper put a drop of light oil onto the paper, place the strip of emery over the shaft, take an end of the paper in each hand and move your hands up and down.
Then move around the circumference of the shaft and repeat.
This polishes and abrades the surface of the shaft and should give a nice tight sliding fit.
Why might you need to do this?
Because of something that is rarely taught in engineering courses in college---TOLERANCES.
After I graduated (knowing very little about tolerances) a wise old toolroom manager took me to one side and told me that " a dimension is not a dimension unless it has a tolerance"
The crank shaft diameter will have a dimension (with a tolerance) and the inner race of the bearing will have a dimension (with a tolerance).
In the triple application you need a CN bearing but you also might need to make sure that it is a tight sliding fit on the shaft by linishing the shaft.
HTH

Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #771826
04/23/19 2:15 am
04/23/19 2:15 am
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BTW--JH is totally correct---these were desperate times in the UK motor cycle industry.
Cash was short and anything would be done to get bikes out of the door to get cash to pay the wages and buy more parts.
This is first hand information as I was there at the time.
HTH

Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tridentman] #771848
04/23/19 12:23 pm
04/23/19 12:23 pm
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It wouldn't be very surprising if Triumph put a C3 bearing in if that was all they had handy. I somehow doubt they measured every shaft and housing and selected bearings with internal clearances to suit. I'll take Richard Darby's advice on bearings (both ball, roller and plain, and also, on rod bolts etc).


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Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #772036
04/26/19 5:06 pm
04/26/19 5:06 pm
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I spent a very interesting couple of hours talking with Richard Darby at his workshop yesterday. Very nice bloke and obviously extremely knowledgeable about all things Triumph / BSA triple-related. He must have 10 at least in the shop, in various stages of dismantlement / reassembly, including his own Rob North race bike, a Hurricane, several US spec R3s and various T150s and T160s. Also a TR5MX (a B50 badged as a Triumph) and an Adventurer.

The C3 bearing is right, he says. I'd taken the one I'd removed in case he was interested in seeing it (imagining it to be considered an oddity) but he only needed to glance at it to verify that it is a C3, and told me there wasn't anything wrong with it having been in there!. So, either the question is answered or the mystery deepens. It seems pretty clear than many T150s must have come with CN bearings, so maybe Triumph changed them at some point, for some reason? My engine number starts JJ, which I think makes it August 1974 manufacture but maybe a 1975 model, if that info helps anyone?

Richard also imparted some other very useful gems if information such as that there is nothing wrong with the standard conrods and no need to buy replacements (whether alloy or steel) unless the originals aren't good. He has the original rods in his own T150 (bought new in 1975 and with over 200,000 miles). He looked at my engine's rods and said he'd be happy to put them in one of his own engines (subject to measuring). With good lubrication, there's no reason for rods that are sound when fitted to fail, and the oilway improvements he carries out should make for lubrication as good as it needs to be.

I also took him the complete carb setup - the gantry with carbs fitted. it was a last minute thought to take them and I;m glad I did. The slides are a surprisingly good fit and they should be restorable. Richard will do his pilot jet conversion, fit vacuum gauge points to the gantry, possibly fit new anodised slides unless the originals are really good.

I'd spoken to him on the phone, and I'd heard of him quite a few times over the years, but I wasn't sure whether he was the kind of perfectionist who calls a part scrap if there's the slightest trace of wear - luckily (because that isn't how I think) he isn't.


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Re: Anyone know about T150 main bearings? [Re: Tigernuts] #772049
04/26/19 6:38 pm
04/26/19 6:38 pm
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Originally Posted by Tigernuts

The C3 bearing is right, he says. I'd taken the one I'd removed in case he was interested in seeing it (imagining it to be considered an oddity) but he only needed to glance at it to verify that it is a C3, and told me there wasn't anything wrong with it having been in there!. So, either the question is answered or the mystery deepens.It seems pretty clear than many T150s must have come with CN bearings, so maybe Triumph changed them at some point, for some reason?


Interesting nevertheless.


Originally Posted by Tigernuts
My engine number starts JJ, which I think makes it August 1974 manufacture


Not necessarily as a 'JJ' (1974 production year) T150 could have been built in August 1973 at Meriden* or August 1974 by NVT.

*(The engines were built at Small Heath).

Originally Posted by Tigernuts
but maybe a 1975 model, if that info helps anyone?


The T160 was the official '1975' model although late '74 manufactured T150Vs have the 1975 'K' model year date code.



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