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Conical hub bearing housing failure #771156
04/15/19 7:25 pm
04/15/19 7:25 pm
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 84
South-Carelia, Finland
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Beezaster Online content OP
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 84
South-Carelia, Finland
Hi all, long time no type. Anyway, I'd like to pick your brains with a rear hub related question. The other day I was fiddling with gearbox sprockets, going back to 20 tooth from a 21, and just for the hell of it (chain out of the way etc.) thought I'd check rear wheel bearings. Left side seemed to have a bit of play so off with the wheel it was. I wasn't exactly thrilled with what I found in there. Both bearings were just fine, but the left side bearing was loose in the hub.

Has anyone had this happen to them before? Is there a chance the housing could be sleeved back to spec? Doesn't look too good, considering the locking nut thread is in the way a bit. I asked my local machinist, who also tinkers with old bikes a bit, about holding the bearing with retaining compound. He happend to have tried it a couple times, said it won't hold for long. One idea I had was to line the housing with some shim stock, if the bore is still reasonably round. What do you guys think?

Oh, and it's an A65T -71 comical hub I'm talking about.

Last edited by Beezaster; 04/15/19 7:28 pm.

Some of them call me "Teddy"

'71 A65 Thunderbolt "The Killer Bee"
(Also the frustrated owner of a Triumph Spitfire 1500)
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Re: Conical hub bearing housing failure [Re: Beezaster] #771162
04/15/19 8:35 pm
04/15/19 8:35 pm
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 52
England
Servodyne Offline
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Servodyne  Offline
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Posts: 52
England
Same thing happened to one of my conical rear hubs and as you said, sleeving it isn't really an option due to the internal threaded lock ring.

I ended up removing the grease retainer behind the bearing and fitting a 4mm wider bearing 42042RS which has it's own rubber seals. Also the spacer tube needs to be reduced by 4mm to allow for the wider bearing.
The new bearing is now positively located in the 4mm of 'good' bore, with loctite bearing fit, permanently securing the rest. Just make sure the locking ring is nipped up tight and it should last for years especially as the new bearing has a double row of bearings.
I've had mine in for a few years now and covered many thousands of trouble free miles.

Hope this helps
Jim


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: Conical hub bearing housing failure [Re: Servodyne] #771193
04/16/19 5:49 am
04/16/19 5:49 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,000
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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Sydney Australia
Originally Posted by Servodyne
Same thing happened to one of my conical rear hubs and as you said, sleeving it isn't really an option due to the internal threaded lock ring.

I ended up removing the grease retainer behind the bearing and fitting a 4mm wider bearing 42042RS which has it's own rubber seals. Also the spacer tube needs to be reduced by 4mm to allow for the wider bearing.
The new bearing is now positively located in the 4mm of 'good' bore, with loctite bearing fit, permanently securing the rest. Just make sure the locking ring is nipped up tight and it should last for years especially as the new bearing has a double row of bearings.
I've had mine in for a few years now and covered many thousands of trouble free miles.

Hope this helps
Jim


I like that Jim one to lock away in the BSA fixes vault.

Teddy,
You can get tubular shim stock
Down here it is called a Speedi Sleeve
You will have to shrink the sleeve onto the bearing first then shrine the bearing + sleeve into the hub.
Just make 200% sure that the hub hole is Concentric to the axel.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Conical hub bearing housing failure [Re: BSA_WM20] #771285
04/17/19 10:06 am
04/17/19 10:06 am
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 84
South-Carelia, Finland
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Beezaster Online content OP
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Posts: 84
South-Carelia, Finland
A neat idea using a wider bearing. I might just try that that if I can't solve this with a method that doesn't involve machining. It's just about impossible to get anyone to turn these small jobs nowadays.

I looked into speedi sleeves, unfortunately they don't come in a 47 mm ID, but a 48 mm one could probably be cut diagonally and squeezed into the housing. This of course needs the housing bored oversize and I get a feeling it will be a lot easier to just go with the 4204 bearing and turn the spacer tube shorter.

I gauged the current housing bore size last night by putting a fresh bearing in there and playing with feelers. Looks like a 0,1 mm gap all around the housing, so apparently it's stilll a fairly round hole. Just picked up a cheap feeler gauge set and I'm gonna cut the 0,05 mm feeler into three pieces, put those pieces in the bore 120 degrees apart, push in a bearing and see if the wheel runs true. I haven't properly measured the housing yet, quite simply because I don't have any equipment to do that, I need to get a micrometer and a dial bore gauge or telescoping gauge to find out which thickness shim stock I'll need for a suitable crush.


Some of them call me "Teddy"

'71 A65 Thunderbolt "The Killer Bee"
(Also the frustrated owner of a Triumph Spitfire 1500)
Re: Conical hub bearing housing failure [Re: Beezaster] #771290
04/17/19 11:40 am
04/17/19 11:40 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,464
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy

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Posts: 5,464
West Yorkshire
Later triumphs had the locking ring on the outside!, but some methods ive seen are...

fit 2 bearings side by side, as servodynes suggestion but with 2 bearings of the same type.

SRM will fit a sleeve on the hub for you (sure others can do the same) so the hub is machined out, a full sleeve put in and the threads on the sleeve are there for the locking ring also.

or machine the outer side, the sweat a ring over it to stop the bearing housing spreading.


beerchug
Re: Conical hub bearing housing failure [Re: Beezaster] #771458
Yesterday at 04:57 AM
Yesterday at 04:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 81
Rangiora, New Zealand
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Mito Offline
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Rangiora, New Zealand
Hi, I had the same problem with my 71 A65FS that I am restoring. Also same issue with other conical hub bikes over the years. The reason the housing fails is that it is not thick enough and over time it bells out and creates clearance. The more it bells out, the more clearance develops. Later hubs had an external threaded ring which held the housing together. If you click on my profile, you see an earlier post on how I fixed mine. It involved stripping the wheel and welding the housing up. It was then mounted in a jig in the lathe to machine. The housing was extended to accommodate two bearings. I have retained the internal lock ring but also pressed on an external ring as extra support. If you strip the wheel, you could of course just lace in a later hub, comes down to what your preference is. Below is the link. Cheers Stu

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/733132/re-conical-hub-bearing-repair#Post733132

Last edited by Mito; Yesterday at 05:01 AM.

70 Rob North Rocket 3
71 T150
71 A65 Firebird
03 Buell Lightning
08 Buell Ulysses
1974 Honda SL 125
75 Honda XL 350
84 Ducati 600 TTF2
Re: Conical hub bearing housing failure [Re: Mito] #771479
Yesterday at 12:39 PM
Yesterday at 12:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 84
South-Carelia, Finland
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Beezaster Online content OP
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Beezaster  Online Content OP
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 84
South-Carelia, Finland
Originally Posted by Mito
Hi, I had the same problem with my 71 A65FS that I am restoring. Also same issue with other conical hub bikes over the years. The reason the housing fails is that it is not thick enough and over time it bells out and creates clearance. The more it bells out, the more clearance develops. Later hubs had an external threaded ring which held the housing together. If you click on my profile, you see an earlier post on how I fixed mine. It involved stripping the wheel and welding the housing up. It was then mounted in a jig in the lathe to machine. The housing was extended to accommodate two bearings. I have retained the internal lock ring but also pressed on an external ring as extra support. If you strip the wheel, you could of course just lace in a later hub, comes down to what your preference is. Below is the link. Cheers Stu

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/733132/re-conical-hub-bearing-repair#Post733132



Wow, that's a pretty impressive jig you got there. I'm afraid having something like that done would probably end up in a four digit bill and I'm not even sure the bottom line would start with 1. If I want this done right, I'll probably be in contact with SRM if they have a previously thought out solution or just lace in a later hub as you said, thanks for the clarification Stu, I didn't really get what Allan meant with the locking ring on the outside. Getting a hold of another hub is of course going to be a battle of it's own.

I've just played with my back wheel a bit more. Stuffed those feeler gauge pieces in there like I mentioned earlier, indicated off the brake drum and got a 0,065 mm runout. After that I removed the left side grease retainer, pressed the bearing all the way into the bore to catch the undamaged bit and got a 0,04 mm runout. Not that big of a difference.

Now a question about what exactly is supposed to be inside that hub. As it is, there is a stamped steel grease retainer on the inside of the right side bearing, nothing between the bearing and the speedo drive ring. On the left side the grease retainer is a machined part. Am I correct thinking something's wrong? The distace between the outer faces of the grease retainers looks to be about 96 mm, but the spacer tube has a shoulder lenght of 96,5 mm. That's a problem.

Last edited by Beezaster; Yesterday at 12:44 PM.

Some of them call me "Teddy"

'71 A65 Thunderbolt "The Killer Bee"
(Also the frustrated owner of a Triumph Spitfire 1500)
Re: Conical hub bearing housing failure [Re: Beezaster] #771480
Yesterday at 01:02 PM
Yesterday at 01:02 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 84
South-Carelia, Finland
B
Beezaster Online content OP
BritBike Forum member
Beezaster  Online Content OP
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 84
South-Carelia, Finland
Apparently the older style hub is 37-3985 and the later hub is 37-4179.

https://www.eBay.com/itm/TRIUMPH-BSA-CONICAL-HUB-REAR-37-4179-CAFE-TRITON-CHOPPER-BOBBER-OIL-IN-FRAME/323279154355?epid=2214832951&hash=item4b44f06cb3:g:lUsAAOSwfGdbNBNV

Can't see any extra support in those pictures, but maybe the listing is wrong. Ridiculuos pricetag.

Last edited by Beezaster; Yesterday at 01:06 PM.

Some of them call me "Teddy"

'71 A65 Thunderbolt "The Killer Bee"
(Also the frustrated owner of a Triumph Spitfire 1500)
Re: Conical hub bearing housing failure [Re: Beezaster] #771534
Yesterday at 08:32 PM
Yesterday at 08:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 52
England
Servodyne Offline
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Servodyne  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 52
England
This is one with the later external threaded cap fitted. Another ridiculously priced, as it's only the hub that's any good. Usually about £150 here in the UK.

https://www.eBay.co.uk/itm/TRIUMPH-BSA-CONICAL-HUB-REAR-WHEEL-ASSY-T120-TR6-T150-A65-37-4184-DUNLOP-RIM/302926600850?epid=8024948818&hash=item4687d51a92:g:DqQAAOSwi-dbyfzG


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: Conical hub bearing housing failure [Re: Beezaster] #771576
16 hours ago
16 hours ago
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 81
Rangiora, New Zealand
M
Mito Offline
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 81
Rangiora, New Zealand
Hey Beezaster, hells bells, checked out pricing on those later hubs....must be made of gold or something. If you get really stuck and can get hub to me cheaply, I can weld, machine and modify to a two bearing set up for around NZ$250 (approx 125 pound).


70 Rob North Rocket 3
71 T150
71 A65 Firebird
03 Buell Lightning
08 Buell Ulysses
1974 Honda SL 125
75 Honda XL 350
84 Ducati 600 TTF2
Re: Conical hub bearing housing failure [Re: Beezaster] #771590
13 hours ago
13 hours ago
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,464
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy

BritBike Forum member
Allan Gill  Online Happy

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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,464
West Yorkshire
I think the inflated price is because of the Dunlop rim, people go mad for that. There is another one on eBay but everything looks to be powder coated black facepalm whilst a good buy it would have been useless for illustration purposes.

I’m undecided whether to fit the disc rear that I have or use the hub. If I go the hub route then I will fit the later type. But they are scarcely seen. Cost wise it’ll be cheaper to use the hub...


beerchug
Re: Conical hub bearing housing failure [Re: Allan Gill] #771607
6 hours ago
6 hours ago
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 84
South-Carelia, Finland
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Beezaster Online content OP
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Beezaster  Online Content OP
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Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 84
South-Carelia, Finland
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
I think the inflated price is because of the Dunlop rim, people go mad for that. There is another one on eBay but everything looks to be powder coated black facepalm whilst a good buy it would have been useless for illustration purposes.


Do you have a link to that one? Would be just the ticket, my rims, hubs, brake plates, fork sliders etc. are all painted black you see.

Last edited by Beezaster; 6 hours ago.

Some of them call me "Teddy"

'71 A65 Thunderbolt "The Killer Bee"
(Also the frustrated owner of a Triumph Spitfire 1500)

Moderated by  Allan Gill, Jon W. Whitley 

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