BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
The Bonneville Shop BritBike Sponsor
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum
| Spiders Cartoons, | DVD- Manuals & Parts books
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
ShoutChat Box
Buy BritBike staff a coffee
Buy BritBike's staff a coffeeStill here since 1996 serving BritBikers, just sayin..
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Member Spotlight
Peter-L
Peter-L
Schilde, Belgium
Posts: 80
Joined: May 2006
Show All Member Profiles 
Newest Members
SLK, E.Fox, 1hirider, Dan watt, Kevin Wils
10700 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
franko 136
NickL 49
Popular Topics(Views)
896,392 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics66,868
Posts670,756
Members10,700
Most Online14,755
May 5th, 2019
Who's Online Now
44 registered members (AML), 307 guests, and 870 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
850 Norton Layshaft Bearing #770939
04/13/19 3:52 pm
04/13/19 3:52 pm
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 170
Mid -Coast Maine & SoCal - US
Robert Dentico Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
Robert Dentico  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 170
Mid -Coast Maine & SoCal - US

I have been advised that the '73 850 Mk I gearbox Layshaft Bearing MAY be an issue and I have researched the possible failure and read all of the info out there on the subject, some written by you folks so without re-hashing the entire subject ad nauseum, is there a list-o-parts that will be needed to perform this repair/replacement...?

We (the owner of the Norton and I) have a well qualified Norton mech friend here and he will get the nod to assist in the work, I am not comfortable with doing the bearing replacement myself. We are also not comfortable with Not doing the repair.

During this refurbish I would like to know also, while the gearbox is out for repair, I should be able to continue with assembly, engine install etc and install the gearbox into the cradle with no problem later...? Yes...?

Thanks in advance for any assistance and advice here.

Best,
Rob


"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '79 T-140 Bonneville, '13 Electra Glide, a garage full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, 1991 BMW R 100 RT, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America


Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: Robert Dentico] #770942
04/13/19 4:08 pm
04/13/19 4:08 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,847
Scotland
kommando Offline
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,847
Scotland
If the box is out for refurbishment and there is a normal deep groove ball bearing in their stamped 6203 then you have 2 choices.

1. Replace the current ball bearing with a roller bearing NU203E, the E is a heavy duty version, as the layshaft now floats you may also need to shim the layshaft to control the endfloat so first does not start jumping out under load.

2. Alternatively change the current ball bearing for another ball bearing which has a higher quality cage made from a resin, Mick Hemmings developed this fix and as its still a ball bearing no shimming is required. FAG 6203 TB.

The ball bearing in itself is not the problem but it is the steel cage that goes, then the balls drop to one side and start falling out and then get jammed between the gears locking the rear wheel.


Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: Robert Dentico] #770949
04/13/19 6:07 pm
04/13/19 6:07 pm
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 533
West Virginia, United States
Beach Offline

BritBike Forum member
Beach  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 533
West Virginia, United States
It can be done easily with gearbox in place. Parts needed are bearing and inner and outer gearbox gasket. Heating gearbox case with heat gun ,after disassemby, let's loose of bearing for removal. Freeze new bearing and heat case for installation.


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: Robert Dentico] #770964
04/14/19 12:08 am
04/14/19 12:08 am
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 170
Mid -Coast Maine & SoCal - US
Robert Dentico Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
Robert Dentico  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 170
Mid -Coast Maine & SoCal - US

Thanks kommando & Bill,

Great info...
I have been going over the tech manuals and still not certain that I want to tackle the bearing replacement. Luckily we have Sherwood to handle the job.

All set for the gaskets so I'll get the box over to him and pull it down and look for that offending bearing number.

Thanks much you guys,
Rob




"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '79 T-140 Bonneville, '13 Electra Glide, a garage full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, 1991 BMW R 100 RT, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: Robert Dentico] #770989
04/14/19 8:47 am
04/14/19 8:47 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Offline
BritBike Forum member
L.A.B.  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
I have been going over the tech manuals and still not certain that I want to tackle the bearing replacement. Luckily we have Sherwood to handle the job.


I don't know if you've found this, but if not, then it's a useful layshaft bearing upgrade 'How to':

http://www.doov.com/apps/nortoncomp...odifications/25-layshaft-bearing-upgrade

(The use of a bearing puller isn't absolutely necessary)

Last edited by L.A.B.; 04/14/19 8:54 am.
Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: Robert Dentico] #771005
04/14/19 1:03 pm
04/14/19 1:03 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,329
Hamilton, Mass. USA
D
Dave Comeau Offline

Crew Chief
Dave Comeau  Offline

Crew Chief
D

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,329
Hamilton, Mass. USA
If I'm correct, the problem for late 74 and 75 is the 6203 is the BRASS cage on certain series bearings. The steel cage bearings would have not been the problem.

If I am into a gearbox, I end up always replacing with the roller bearing version.

However, I have always found that the need to add shims is mostly to accommodate using worn 1st gear dogs, since 1st gear is the only one without self holding reverse angle dogs. Added to that a worn 1st gear bush and mating layshaft aggravate the jumping out of gear problem.
Personally I have never experienced this problem since I keep a fresh bush and inspect for a worn out cog holes and the mating dogs on the meshing gear.



dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: Robert Dentico] #771009
04/14/19 1:44 pm
04/14/19 1:44 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,847
Scotland
kommando Offline
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,847
Scotland
Not sure if this cage is steel or brass as it looks like a coating has been applied or it has discoloured over the years, the bits of cage and 1/2 balls I fished out from the bottom of my gearbox could have been cheese for all the good they were doing.

[Linked Image]


Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: kommando] #771026
04/14/19 5:45 pm
04/14/19 5:45 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Offline
BritBike Forum member
L.A.B.  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted by Dave Comeau
If I'm correct, the problem for late 74 and 75 is the 6203 is the BRASS cage on certain series bearings. The steel cage bearings would have not been the problem.


This is supposed to be a '73 model but any 6203 ball bearing can fail regardless whether it has a brass or steel cage, just that the brass cage bearing is more prone to failure.

Originally Posted by kommando
Not sure if this cage is steel or brass....


That's the brass cage bearing.

Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: Robert Dentico] #771032
04/14/19 6:42 pm
04/14/19 6:42 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,847
Scotland
kommando Offline
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,847
Scotland
That could be discoloured brass or it could be tempered cold rolled steel.

[Linked Image]





Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: kommando] #771033
04/14/19 7:01 pm
04/14/19 7:01 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Offline
BritBike Forum member
L.A.B.  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted by kommando
That could be discoloured brass or it could be tempered cold rolled steel.


It is brass.

[Linked Image]

The definitely brass cage bearing I removed from my Mk3:
[Linked Image]

https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/layshaft-bearing.21704/page-2#post-324083
https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/layshaft-bearing.21704/page-2#post-324085
"dynodave
Destroyed the fag bearing cage, nonmagnetic and obviously is brass and not anodized steel."





Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: kommando] #771040
04/14/19 8:29 pm
04/14/19 8:29 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,329
Hamilton, Mass. USA
D
Dave Comeau Offline

Crew Chief
Dave Comeau  Offline

Crew Chief
D

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,329
Hamilton, Mass. USA
LAB
I have whole box 6203's in my hand .
The FAG portugal brass one as in your pix has the folded over tabs for the cage. This is the one I took apart, in the last 6203 discussion last year?

The SKF steel ones I have are peened little steel pins to hold the cage halfs together.
The NTN cage halfs are steel spot welded together.
THe FAG korea are steel cage halfs are peened with steel.pins.
The FAG Argentina are steel cage halfs are peened with steel.pins


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: Dave Comeau] #771042
04/14/19 8:39 pm
04/14/19 8:39 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Offline
BritBike Forum member
L.A.B.  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted by Dave Comeau
I have whole box 6203's in my hand .
The FAG portugal brass one as in your pix has the folded over tabs for the cage. This is the one I took apart, in the last 6203 discussion last year?

The SKF steel ones I have are peened little steel pins to hold the cage halfs together.
The NTN cage halfs are steel spot welded together.
THe FAG korea are steel cage halfs are peened with steel.pins.
The FAG Argentina are steel cage halfs are peened with steel.pins


Yes, the Portuguese FAG 6203 was the 'brass' cage layshaft bearing fitted by the factory as far as I'm aware, others were steel cage (if that's the point you're making?).

Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: Robert Dentico] #771100
04/15/19 7:58 am
04/15/19 7:58 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,847
Scotland
kommando Offline
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,847
Scotland
I know there are brass caged 6203's, just not convinced all Portuguese were brass, it's not a part of the ISO standard so they were free to use brass or steel.

Mick Hemmings refers to steel cage when helping a magazine do a AMC rebuild.

http://www.archives.jampot.dk/Technical/Transmission/AMC/AMC_Gearbox_Stripdown_and_Rebuild__%28Classic_Mechanics_1987%29.pdf

If you find a 6203 change it.


Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: kommando] #771102
04/15/19 8:32 am
04/15/19 8:32 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Offline
BritBike Forum member
L.A.B.  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted by kommando
I know there are brass caged 6203's, just not convinced all Portuguese were brass,


Well, they all seem to be brass as I don't think we have seen evidence of an original Portuguese 6203 that did not have a brass cage but I'm happy to be proved wrong, not that it matters, because, as you say, standard 6203 layshaft bearings still in use should be replaced.









Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: L.A.B.] #771114
04/15/19 12:12 pm
04/15/19 12:12 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,329
Hamilton, Mass. USA
D
Dave Comeau Offline

Crew Chief
Dave Comeau  Offline

Crew Chief
D

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,329
Hamilton, Mass. USA
Originally Posted by L.A.B.


It is brass.

[Linked Image]


See the two folded tabs on the brass cage at 12 and 1 o'clock
These should go in the trash as they are not up to the service needed.
Spot welded or peened pins are much stronger attachment on a much stronger steel cage.
I have no problem reusing a good used riveted steel cage bearing.
I did cruise the referenced classic mechanics article, however I again differ with MH on a few points.

gearboxbreathing myth

Just found another bearing , FAG-Germany-Steel cage with folded/crimped tab style like the brass/Portugal one


dynodave
BSA 3 1961-1963
Ducati 3 1992-2002
Norton many 1951-1975
87 Serv-Equip 100HP MC brake dynamometer,
Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: Robert Dentico] #771292
04/17/19 12:11 pm
04/17/19 12:11 pm
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 170
Mid -Coast Maine & SoCal - US
Robert Dentico Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
Robert Dentico  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 170
Mid -Coast Maine & SoCal - US

Thanks all,
Our Norton gearbox guy Sherwood has the box to investigate and repair, I will advise regarding the brass cage and other cages that incorporate the folded vs the spot welded or peened cages.

Best,
Rob





"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '79 T-140 Bonneville, '13 Electra Glide, a garage full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, 1991 BMW R 100 RT, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile
Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: Robert Dentico] #771296
04/17/19 1:10 pm
04/17/19 1:10 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Offline
BritBike Forum member
L.A.B.  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,000
Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
Our Norton gearbox guy Sherwood has the box to investigate and repair, I will advise regarding the brass cage and other cages that incorporate the folded vs the spot welded or peened cages.


For the cost of the upgraded bearing, I seriously suggest you instruct him to replace any metal cage layshaft 6203 ball bearing (regardless of folds, spot welds etc.) with the upgraded bearing as it's not worth the risk. At best, it wrecks the gearbox but could cause a serious accident as the bearing has been known to fail with little or no warning, normally locking the rear wheel at whatever speed it fails and pulling the clutch lever won't free off the wheel.

Here's just some of the examples we've heard about on Access Norton. These are the lucky ones, the unlucky ones we probably don't get to hear about.
https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/layshaft-bearing-failure.5357/#post-57404

The layshaft bearing Andover Norton supplies for all Commandos is the 06.7710 roller.

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details/17267/layshaft-roller-bearing-18337-b2-322-




Re: 850 Norton Layshaft Bearing [Re: L.A.B.] #771345
04/18/19 12:26 am
04/18/19 12:26 am
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 170
Mid -Coast Maine & SoCal - US
Robert Dentico Offline OP

BritBike Forum member
Robert Dentico  Offline OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 170
Mid -Coast Maine & SoCal - US
Originally Posted by L.A.B.
Originally Posted by Robert Dentico
Our Norton gearbox guy Sherwood has the box to investigate and repair, I will advise regarding the brass cage and other cages that incorporate the folded vs the spot welded or peened cages.


For the cost of the upgraded bearing, I seriously suggest you instruct him to replace any metal cage layshaft 6203 ball bearing (regardless of folds, spot welds etc.) with the upgraded bearing as it's not worth the risk. At best, it wrecks the gearbox but could cause a serious accident as the bearing has been known to fail with little or no warning, normally locking the rear wheel at whatever speed it fails and pulling the clutch lever won't free off the wheel.



Copy all LAB,
Yes the Norton wrench is certainly learned in the correct bearing to use however, just to be a pest, I have made a pest of myself in reiterating a couple of times that the replacement Must be of good quality cage construction/configuration.

I have read several of the incidents and the words that caught my attention immediately were Catastrophic Failure and "It can Kill you"... If that does not get ones attention then I do know what would.

Thanks,
Rob




"They told me I was gonna have to work for a livin' but all I wanna do is Ride" - Jackson Browne

Current:
'75 T-160 Trident, '79 T-140 Bonneville, '13 Electra Glide, a garage full of Guzzis, '88 Honda Hawk GT, '84 RZ350 KR, 1991 BMW R 100 RT, 1969 Dalesman Trials etc and a '73 MGB for good measure... smile

Moderated by  Dave Comeau 

Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | DVD- Manuals & Parts books
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership


Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1