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Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt #770943
04/13/19 4:11 pm
04/13/19 4:11 pm
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Long Island, New York
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gioleo123 Offline OP
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Hi all.
I am getting ready to ditch the points on my 1970 Thunderbolt. I already have a Pazon sure-fire ignition system and am waiting on delivery of a pair of 6v coils.
I am hoping some of you can help out with photos of the install. I am particular interested in the location of the black box and connection of ignition wire.
I figured I could benefit from some expertise on this forum in avoiding any mistakes. While the tank and seat are off I figured I would also take the opportunity to upgrade to a new AMAL premier carb.
Hoping to transform the ole girl from a good runner to a great one for summer riding.
TIA, Giovanni

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Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gioleo123] #770956
04/13/19 9:26 pm
04/13/19 9:26 pm
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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I don't have any photos of my Pazon Surefire setup on my 1968 A65 but this is how I have it installed:-
- the ignition module box is placed in the toolbox and secured using self adhesive velcro tape. This has worked well for several years and allows the ignition module to be removed if necessary. You can get self adhesive velcro tape on eBay, Amazon etc.
- the ignition module has 5 wires, two of the wires connect to the pick up plate (yellow/black and white/black). Make sure these are connected the right way round on the pick up plate. If you inspect the pickup plate you should see Y/B and W/B markings where the wires connect to show the correct connections.
- the other three wires on the black box are red for earth, white which is power supply from the ignition switch and black which is the pulse connection to the coils.
- when you fit the rotor and pick up plate, check that there is enough clearance between the two. Sometimes the solder on the back of the pick up plate fouls the rotor and needs filing back.
- timing the ignition requires using the crank shaft full advance slot. Undo the cover on the front right crankcase and use a suitably sized allen key located in the crank to lock the crank in place. Then fit the rotor and pick up plate so that the red dot appears in the anti- clockwise hole, adjust so that the pick up plate is mid way between the slots. Usually this is good enough to get the bike started but you may want to strobe the timing later to ensure its spot on.

Hope this helps, Pazon its fairly easy to install and is a good system, the only thing I would double check is the rotor to pick up clearance which can cause problems.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gunner] #770968
04/14/19 12:33 am
04/14/19 12:33 am
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Long Island, New York
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gioleo123 Offline OP
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Thanks so much gunner.

Excellent explanation. It seems very straight forward.

I had replaced the Boyer on a 77 Bonneville with a new Boyer.
That was basically a straightforward swap.

I will install the black box as per your suggestion, inside the toolbox.
And I will definitely check the clearance between rotor and pickup plate.
Great tip!

Ride safe!
Giovanni

Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gioleo123] #770981
04/14/19 4:28 am
04/14/19 4:28 am
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Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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Yes, a very thorough explanation from Gunner. The only other pitfall I can think of is:

In my Boyer kit, the bolt to secure the pickup rotor was a tad too long, and had to be cut or ground to keep from bottoming in the idler pinion. May not be a problem with the Pazon kit. The Boyer kit included a 26-tpi bolt and a 28-tpi bolt; the BSA will want the 26 tpi bolt.

You're probably already aware of this, but Walmart has that double-sticky Velcro tape, cheap.




Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gioleo123] #771004
04/14/19 12:55 pm
04/14/19 12:55 pm
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Waldorf, Maryland
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Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gioleo123] #771015
04/14/19 3:45 pm
04/14/19 3:45 pm
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Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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A good video for the uninitiated, a lot of information on timing in general.

My favorite part is where Todd says, "...and then what I do next is, I remove the other screw from the work area so I don't actually pick it up later and try to put it in there", and then he tosses the screw across the room.

One thing that confuses me a bit, and this is a Triumph-only thing, but if there's a pin, or "tit" as Todd calls it, on the camshaft, and a corresponding groove in the pickup rotor, why is it necessary to position the engine in order to install the rotor? That is, doesn't the pin and groove locate the rotor in one and only one position with respect to the camshaft?

Sorry I'm going off-topic here, Giovanni is working with a BSA.



Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gioleo123] #771021
04/14/19 5:15 pm
04/14/19 5:15 pm
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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Hi Mark, I believe the problem is that the pazon rotor doesn't have a slot for the 'tit' in the cam rotor. What the guy in the video was doing is checking that the 'tit' is deep enough so it wouldn't interfere with the rotor taper. Many people have to remove the 'tit' as it sometimes does interfere with the rotor taper. Its purpose was I believe to ensure alignment of the AAU etc. but I don't know any more.

Luckily BSA's don't have a 'tit' inside the cam taper so the pazon rotor can be fitted without issue, however check the rotor to pickup clearance as often its too little and the rotor fouls the pick up. Actually I had this very issue and had to turn down the rotor taper down about 1.5mm to get sufficient clearance but all is well now.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: Mark Z] #771023
04/14/19 5:23 pm
04/14/19 5:23 pm
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Long Island, New York
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gioleo123 Offline OP
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No worries Mark Z, All information is greatly welcome. I have watched a few of Todd from Lowbrow's videos.
I use his method of attaching electrical terminals from that video. I haven't had one come loose yet.
But I must say that the fellow I find most entertaining for youtube britbike repairs is Lunmad.
When I had my triumphs I always watched his videos, before attempting similar work.
I don't always agree with some of his methods but I/m always able to take a few tidbits of advice from his videos!

Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gunner] #771101
04/15/19 7:58 am
04/15/19 7:58 am
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Giovanni,

Originally Posted by gunner
ignition module has 5 wires, two of the wires connect to the pick up plate (yellow/black and white/black)
other three wires
are red for earth, white which is power supply from the ignition switch and black which is the pulse connection to the coils.

I connect this Red wire directly to battery +ve and include a (7.5A spade) fuse in the White wire.

If you're following the Pazon Sure-Fire fitting instructions, I connect the Red wire from "Coil #2 +" either directly to battery +ve or into the bike's existing harness Red wires' network.

I ensure there is a distinct Red wire connection between somewhere on the engine and battery +ve, either from the harness already or by fitting the wire.

Hth.

Regards,

Last edited by Stuart; 04/19/19 12:27 am.
Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gioleo123] #771168
04/15/19 9:31 pm
04/15/19 9:31 pm
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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Hi Stuart, good info about adding a 7.5a blade terminal to the Pazon module and something I must do.

Another idea I'm toying with is to add a waterproof block connector between the black box pick-up wires and the inner timing cover on my A65. With my current setup the black box is located in the tool box secured by velcro and the pick-up wires run directly into the inner timing cover and pick-up plate. Completely removing the inner timing cover is slightly problematic as the pick-up harness is one piece, so adding a 2 pin waterproof block connector is my next project for this week.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gioleo123] #771179
04/15/19 11:30 pm
04/15/19 11:30 pm
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Isle of Wight, UK
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koan58 Offline
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Stuart, what is the extra protection conferred by the extra fuse in the EI wire beyond that provided by the fuse already in the batt -ve wire?

Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: koan58] #771314
04/17/19 6:10 pm
04/17/19 6:10 pm
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Stuart Offline
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Originally Posted by koan58
what is the extra protection conferred by the extra fuse in the EI wire beyond that provided by the fuse already in the batt -ve wire?

Depends what the main fuse is. Original was 35A 'blow'/17.5A 'continuous'; 'back in the day' US dealers supplied/fitted 20A 'continuous' replacements; even if the main fuse is 15A 'continuous', any of those 'continuous' Amps will bugger an e.i. without blowing the main fuse.

If any component in the ignition circuit causes a short-circuit, it's more likely the lower-rated 7.5A fuse will blow rather than the higher-rated one in a wire connected to the battery. While the bike will still stop, at least lights, horn, etc. will still function.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gioleo123] #771335
04/17/19 10:39 pm
04/17/19 10:39 pm
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koan58 Offline
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Thanks for your clarification Stuart.

A couple of further comments:

1 - the only shorts in the ignition system that could cause such a current to flow (and hence wreck the EI box) would have to be either in the black wire to Coil 1 (short to ground here would allow a very high current which would deprive the coils of voltage and so stop the coils functioning, then blow the main fuse)
or
2 - a short to ground in the link wire between the coils (a remote possibilty which would allow something like a 7A current to flow through the EI and Coil !, depriving Coil 2 of voltage). At best, 1 cylinder would still be working for a while, until the ~7A killed the EI and/or coil, but crucially not the fuse.

Your suggestion, to place a fuse in the EI's red or white wire should be ammended to the white wire only, as this is the only location that confers any (marginally) additional protection against the only damaging short possibilities listed above.

Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: koan58] #771449
04/19/19 12:31 am
04/19/19 12:31 am
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Stuart Offline
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Hi,

Originally Posted by koan58
the only shorts in the ignition system that could cause such a current to flow (and hence wreck the EI box)

Not ime.

However, having given more thought to all the ignition component failures I know of, I agree with you that any lower-rated fuse just for the ignition should only be in the White wire; in the Red wire, it won't protect against all of them. I've amended my earlier post.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: Stuart] #771451
04/19/19 1:30 am
04/19/19 1:30 am
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koncretekid Offline
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Just for your information, the following drawing was approved by Boyer to use a "shorting" type engine kill on my Bonneville bike with Negative ground. They said that shorting out the black wire to the coil was no different from leaving the key on with the motor not running. I have used the wiring diagram on a couple of my bikes with no ill results, although I don't regularly use the lanyard kill switch, only to demonstrate to inspectors that it works. This is for a single cylinder bike with twin plugs (although I only show one coil, it is a Boyer dual coil), so not unlike a twin.
Tom
[Linked Image]

Last edited by koncretekid; 04/19/19 1:31 am.

Life's uncertain - go fast now!
Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gioleo123] #771462
04/19/19 5:56 am
04/19/19 5:56 am
Joined: May 2013
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West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Interesting place of the kill switch Tom, I notice your bike is negative earth, would it work the other way around I wonder with the positive earth system? Looking at it, a normally open switch as you have wouldn’t as it would need to connect the black wire into live side of the ignition.

In that the white from the ignition switch to the feed side of the box, black from the black box to the coil. The red from the back box goes to the coil and a branch also to earth.

Some years ago I contacted Pazon asking where I could fit a “earth to kill” switch (like yours) they recommended coupling it into one of the inductive wires from the trigger stator (black and yellow was the one I chose). I run a yellow and black up to the tri-con switch on the bars and that kills the ignition a treat. I guess it fools the box into believing that the rotor isn’t turning and as it needs both to work.

Stuart, nice to see you back

Last edited by Allan Gill; 04/19/19 6:11 am. Reason: Thinking about the solution post asking the question

beerchug
Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gioleo123] #771468
04/19/19 9:09 am
04/19/19 9:09 am
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scotland
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I put a short-circuiting kill button between a trigger wire and the handlebar, on my Wassell system. It was against advice here, but it works.

I reason that it’s better for overall reliability than breaking the 12V circuit. Look how much bother Norton Commando riders have with the kill switch.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: triton thrasher] #771472
04/19/19 10:06 am
04/19/19 10:06 am
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
I put a short-circuiting kill button between a trigger wire and the handlebar, on my Wassell system. It was against advice here, but it works.

I reason that it’s better for overall reliability than breaking the 12V circuit. Look how much bother Norton Commando riders have with the kill switch.


Wouldn’t have been my advice TT, it works well and like you I’d rather do that that break the main feed wire ala’ 70’s style switch gear with an increased chance of arcing I think.


beerchug
Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: Allan Gill] #771473
04/19/19 10:14 am
04/19/19 10:14 am
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill


Wouldn’t have been my advice TT, it works well and like you I’d rather do that that break the main feed wire ala’ 70’s style switch gear with an increased chance of arcing I think.


Of course conversely then a faulty earthing switch means the engine won’t stop when you press it.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: triton thrasher] #771476
04/19/19 11:58 am
04/19/19 11:58 am
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Allan Gill Offline

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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
Originally Posted by Allan Gill


Wouldn’t have been my advice TT, it works well and like you I’d rather do that that break the main feed wire ala’ 70’s style switch gear with an increased chance of arcing I think.


Of course conversely then a faulty earthing switch means the engine won’t stop when you press it.



Very true, but less chance of failure, Amps only passing throughout for the moment it is used, also you can revert to turning off the key switch or stalling the bike in gear should the need arrive. I’d rather it fail roc stop the bike than to fuse the wiring loom because of a high resistance in contacts arcing.


Sorry digressing far from topic here.


beerchug
Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gioleo123] #771477
04/19/19 12:04 pm
04/19/19 12:04 pm
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Remembering back to when i was young, broke, and not as smart, we all had problems with the kill switches going bad and not knowing what to do. So now any bike i build to ride has a relay between the kill switch and the box.

It provides clean voltage to the ei, works even if there is a voltage drop in the switch,


Rich (last remaining member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

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Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gioleo123] #771525
04/19/19 7:12 pm
04/19/19 7:12 pm
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koan58 Offline
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Allan Gill "Interesting place of the kill switch Tom, I notice your bike is negative earth, would it work the other way around I wonder with the positive earth system?"

That switch layout is fine for -ve ground. All it is doing when pressed is diverting the current from the coil(s) directly to ground, rather than having to go via the switched circuit within the box to the white wire ground.
Because the switching circuitry has semi-conductor voltage drops (effectively resistance), the almost zero resistance of the kill switch bypass is the preferred path to ground, so no switching = no spark.

There is no equivalent place in a +ve ground system. I know this seems counter-intuitive, as we're used to thinking that most components work either way round, polarity wise.
It's all down to the way the electronics of the box are organized. It isn't symmetrical, polarity wise.
The only wires which are concerned with the 12V system are the white, the red and the black. When the box is live (ignition on) the white and red provide unbroken power to the box. The black (-ve) is the switched connection, there isn't a switched +ve connection.
In essence, the box has 2 -ve wires (white -ve permanent, black -ve switched) but only 1 +ve wire (red +ve permanent). Hence the asymmetry.

Thus on a +ve ground system, a push to make button cannot be used in a similar way.
As has been stated by yourself and TT, such a button may be used to achieve the same result by grounding one of the trigger wires, and this would work the same on either polarity system.
As I see it, this just almost completely eliminates the trigger pulse to the amplifier (which is tiny amps) and can do no damage.

Something I'm unsure about is whether the additional length of wire to the kill switch introduces any disadvantage to the strength/quality of the signal to the box, due to its capacitance? Maybe NickL may help.

Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: gioleo123] #771559
04/19/19 11:28 pm
04/19/19 11:28 pm
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I have only ever looked at the Boyer mk111 schematic posted by 'dyno-dave' some time ago.
The front end is polarity sensitive only in as much as for it's functionality, pulling B/Y pickup
lead either hard positive or hard negative will stop the sparks. The nature of the pickup type
makes it relatively immune to interference as it's quite low impedance, capacitance would
affect operation if the pickup leads were longer than around 2 kilometres so i don't see that
as a real problem. It's always best to twist the 2 pickup leads together but not essential.

Fusing the device is most appropriately done in the coil lead (black) or the negative (white)the fuse should be a 'T'
or semiconductor fuse rated at around 5-7.5 amps. This would be the only type that could gaurentee protection
in the event of the coil primary going short circuit. A typical car type fuse may offer some protection but normally
only to itself........... Point is the output device used is much larger than it's employed use, so is a little forgiving
when subjected to instantaneous overload.

The kill switch on the bars on the standard 71 oif Lucas setup is, as with most devices of this type, totally unsuitable
for switching low level signals, if there is insufficient load to clean/wet the contacts they develop a high resistance
very quickly and become a source of problem. When the ignition unit only is supplied via this button, the current
is only a few milliamps, certainly nowhere near enough for non gold flashed or non bifurcated contacts to reliably
carry.

I have stated before that using coils of less than a total primary resistance of 4 ohms on an older style EI for a street bike is in many
cases not a very good idea. The heat generated by the coil at low rpm/frequency has a huge effect on it's operational
characteristics, far outweighing the benefit of the faster saturation time of the core when no variable dwell control is employed.

Transformer style coils such as used on aftermarket harly applications offer significant advantages over bottle style coils at
the frequency these old singles and twins work at, the higher coupled inductance and lower secondary resistance will give
a more powerful spark. I am talking about fixed dwell older style EI setups.

Sorry to bore you all. (I only came to this thread 'cos someone mentioned my name without putting 'fascist' in front of it.)
I'll bugger off now.
Nick

Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: NickL] #771600
04/20/19 9:22 am
04/20/19 9:22 am
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Stuart Offline
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Hi Nick,

Originally Posted by NickL
I'll bugger off now.

Before you do ... smile

Originally Posted by NickL
fuse should be a 'T'or semiconductor fuse rated at around 5-7.5 amps. This would be the only type that could gaurentee protection

Looking around the www, 'T' fuses seem to be the only ones in that range, semiconductor fuses seem to have much higher ratings?

Then there's organising a reasonably water-resistant holder on a bike ... crazy

Originally Posted by NickL
The kill switch on the bars on the standard 71 oif Lucas setup is, as with most devices of this type, totally unsuitable for switching low level signals, if there is insufficient load to clean/wet the contacts they develop a high resistance very quickly and become a source of problem. When the ignition unit only is supplied via this button, the current
is only a few milliamps, certainly nowhere near enough for non gold flashed or non bifurcated contacts to reliably carry.

Given the problems detailed innumerably over the years, even if these kill switches carry the coil Amps, that still isn't enough "load to clean/wet the contacts"? Reducing to just the load of switching a relay would exacerbate any problem?

Originally Posted by NickL
lower secondary resistance will give a more powerful spark.

On its own or only with the "higher coupled inductance" of "Transformer style coils"? I'm thinking when testing "bottle style coils" and different secondary resistances are found, or older PVL coils had a much higher secondary resistance than similar original Lucas coils?

Regards,

Re: Install Pazon on a Thunderbolt [Re: koan58] #771604
04/20/19 10:41 am
04/20/19 10:41 am
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Hi,

Originally Posted by koan58
That switch layout is fine for -ve ground. All it is doing when pressed is diverting the current from the coil(s) directly to ground, rather than having to go via the switched circuit within the box to the white wire ground.

confused

Absent any such real thing as "ground" in DC electrics, there are only "negative" and "positive". Because negative is always 'supply' and positive is always 'return', the 'box' is always supplied by DC -ve (certainly in all the e.i. available for these old heaps), irrespective of whether the metal parts of the bike are connected to battery -ve or battery +ve (and the electronics in these e.i. 'boxes' don't work if connected between coil and battery +ve).

Originally Posted by koncretekid
my Bonneville bike with Negative ground.

... simply means the metal parts of Tom's bike can be a conductor between battery -ve and the -ve of any electrical component attached.

So the "N.O.kill switch" in Tom's diagram is between battery -ve and the coil. When closed, the switch simply connects battery -ve continuously to the coil LT windings. A coil only produces an HT spark when the circuit through the LT windings is broken so, as long the switch connects battery -ve to the coil's LT windings the coil won't produce an HT spark.

Originally Posted by koncretekid
Boyer
said that shorting out the black wire to the coil was no different from leaving the key on with the motor not running.

While I'm guessing you mean Bransden Electronics ("Boyer" was a long-time Triumph dealer in the nearby London suburb of Bromley, Kent, although not around any more frown ), this also doesn't appear to make sense:-

. Coil supplied through the Black wire from the 'box', Boyer-Bransden 'boxes' for twins and singles turn off power to the coil after a few seconds if "the key [is left] on with the motor not running".

. If the 'box' is bypassed - by supplying the coil directly from battery -ve by closing the "N.O.kill switch" - it cannot be "no different from leaving the key on with the motor not running", because the 'box' cannot turn off the supply to the coil.

Depends whether it's believed turning off power to coils is important if "the key [is left] on with the motor not running". I've only once left an e.i. (a Rita) on overnight, didn't harm either battery, Rita or coils. So I've never believed the switch-off is necessary, certainly not after only a few seconds, it's certainly a pita when fault-finding and even Bransden don't include it in 'boxes' for triples.

Hth.

Regards,

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