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A65 top end rebuild - NO START #770284
04/06/19 12:37 pm
04/06/19 12:37 pm
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6
Pennsylvania (PA)
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pduff Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6
Pennsylvania (PA)
Hi All!

First post here. I think I have a 66 BSA Hornet, but my case is not marked. I had it running for about 300 miles last year. Added Pazon and premier Concentrics and it was a 1 kick start on cold and 2-3 when warm bike. But it was burning oil out the pipes, externally leaking oil out of the center head bolt and down through the barrel air passages, and losing compression. I decided to rebuild the top end this winter. After 2 months of sitting, I found the case was filled with oil and there was still quite a bit in the tank - so it might have been wet sumping or drained down while stored. I decided to tackle the wet sumping after the rebuild and have not addressed it yet (but did check the scavange pipe and it was "functional". Pertinent background aside - here is the current problem:

It will not start. Not even reliable popping heard after hundreds of kicks while fiddling and checking the following:

-I have 120PSI compression in both cylinders. Also note I did the John H semi-dry assembly and would think the compression will improve after a proper breakin and oil film on the cyls
-I have spark with plugs removed. I replaced the plugs too with NGK 1111 at .025 gaps. I also installed a new Pazon black box from a friend to rule out a failure in there, but like it said it was sparking. I made no changes to the timing during the rebuild that I am aware of. I had statically (with the lockout plug in the front) and also dynamically timined it 300 miles ago.
-I checked valve clearances several times, and I didn't slip a pushrod or anything.
-I have new 100 octane AVGAS in there (fiberglass tank). I also have fuel coming up from the ticklers. I then pulled the basically new Concentrics and disassembled and they looked brand new! I always ran AVGAS so I wasn't surprised. Pilot jets clear, pilot tubes clear from the bowl up, main clear, needle intact on middle setting, etc. I even sprayed starter fluid in both amals with WOT after I reassembled and installed them and no combustion heard.

I drank beer. I slept on it. I invited gearhead friends over to hopefully help me find the simple things I missed. I had more beer.

Ideas welcome! Thanks ahead of time for any suggestions. I am booked at the blowing rock in for my first brit bike group ride and plan on coming from Philadelphia!

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Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770289
04/06/19 1:36 pm
04/06/19 1:36 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,777
Mississauga, Ontario.
A
Adam M. Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,777
Mississauga, Ontario.
How your spark plugs look like when you remove them after few ( more like 10 ) kicks ?
Are they wet and smelling gas or dry ?

Last edited by Adam M.; 04/06/19 1:37 pm.
Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770291
04/06/19 1:58 pm
04/06/19 1:58 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 451
Iowa
konon Offline

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konon  Offline

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Posts: 451
Iowa
Don't know about Pazon ignitions, but if single fire switch plug wires around. If you have gas and spark , recheck timing.


1968 BSA Firebird
1200 HD
XS 1100
1972 Rickman 125
Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770292
04/06/19 2:51 pm
04/06/19 2:51 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 526
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
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nert Offline
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nert  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 526
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
Agree with Adam M., pull the plugs. Wet or dry?


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770297
04/06/19 3:31 pm
04/06/19 3:31 pm
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 539
Norway
Ola Offline
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Ola  Offline
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Posts: 539
Norway
Inlet balance tube?
Crossed wires between ignition stator and "black box"?


There are no bosses in a technical discussion
(Doug Hele, 1919 - 2001)
Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770299
04/06/19 3:33 pm
04/06/19 3:33 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,003
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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Posts: 1,003
Farnham, Surrey, UK
A few things to look at:-
- check the carb slides are not being held open by the throttle cable(s)
- check for air leaks around the manifold, hopefully the carbs havent been over tightened and bowed the flanges
- is the carb balance pipe in place or cracked?
- is the head gasket leaking air?
- are both plugs sparking together at the same time, the pazon fires every 180 degrees. If not the pickup may be faulty but you can test it, see the Pazon website for advise
- also double check the pushrods are fitted correctly and not reversed

Last edited by gunner; 04/06/19 5:48 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770326
04/06/19 7:37 pm
04/06/19 7:37 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,529
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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gavin eisler  Offline
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Posts: 4,529
argyll. scotland, uk




It only takes a few minutes to check ignition timing. Just in case something shifted.

if the pick up leads got reversed somehow, that would give a no go, with the odd chuff in the pipe.

Rags in inlet port s left over from rebuild? ( BTDTBTTS.)
Failing HT leads?
Clutching at straws here.
reversed pick up leads is my favourite.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 04/07/19 2:15 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770353
04/07/19 1:27 am
04/07/19 1:27 am
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 427
Chelmsford MA
M
MarcB Offline
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Posts: 427
Chelmsford MA
I'm always suspicious of pilot jets after sitting, even if running well when parked. This is especially true with the fiberglass tank. With the premiers, I'd pull the pilot jet one more time and spray some carb cleaner in the hole for good measure.

Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770474
04/08/19 11:03 am
04/08/19 11:03 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,000
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
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Posts: 4,000
Sydney Australia
And what type of HT leads are you running ?
The either have to be spiral wound induction leads or solid copper.
Low noise surpressed leads break down very quickly on our old iron.

When faced with a no go lawnmower I use an orange in line spark tester & a can of carb cleaner.
With the tester is flashing while the cleaner is sprayed lightly down the card and the engine does not fire, the next test is to spray some down the plug hole
Engine fires once = problem with valve timing
Engine does not fire at all = problem with ignition timing
Must be done with new plugs.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: nert] #770505
04/08/19 6:28 pm
04/08/19 6:28 pm
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6
Pennsylvania (PA)
P
pduff Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6
Pennsylvania (PA)
Hi All at it again and still not luck! Updates to the great suggestions below:

-CARB/FUELING: Plugs are somewhat smelling like gas. Not wet for sure. So I rebuilt the basically new carbs AGAIN. I have the premier AMAL Concentrics from Klempf and I ran a guitar wire into the removeable pilot jet located at the inside of the twin carbs (brass end +) and it was clean as a whistle. I ran the .012" guitar wire anyway. I also ran some compressed air through the circuit. Not sure is there is a jam up inside the carb bodies, but I really doubt it. I will try to borrow a cigarette from someone and blow some smoke through there with a soft rubber hose like the chap from the UK did in the one video. I did use ether/starting fluid and even went as far as a ml of raw gas into each spark plug hole. Again I get one pop on first kick and then no more - just the sound of me kicking.

-Timing: I inserted the stock plug in the front of the case that should be at full 34degree advance. I check the pazon ignition rotor was aligned with the red dot and it was inside the counter clockwise hole. Again It was running before. I also went as far as to change the pickup plate with a NEW pazon pickup plate and I checked that the Rotor was on the taper well and was not free to rotate and it was on there tightly. I can't for the life of me understand how anything mechanical on the timing of this bike could have moved from me doing a top end. I didn't even open the primary cover, timing cover during the top end rebuild. I very carefully transferred the marks from the NEW pazon pickup plate to the NEWEST pazon pickup plate.

-Ignition: It is firing both NEW spark plugs at the same time and they are strong. I have a charged battery. I did change to a Shorai battery (lithium iron) during the top end rebuild and they run a little high in voltage (like 13.5-13.7v), so I reverted back to a lead-acid type that is fully charged at 12.8v. Both batteries produced a great spark. I am using new NGK Spark Plug Resistor Caps 5000 ohm from Low brow customs and they were running great for 300miles last year, Same miles put on new 6 volt Lucas style Ignition Coils, Also been running 7mm Solid Core Cloth Spark Plug Wire Black w/ Red Tracers. All the igntion parts were purchased as a set from Low Brow customs last year and known to be a great option here in the US.

Other great ideas from you guys: Balancer tube is new and well sealed. Carbs are flat and no air leaks at head. The headgasket is tight as the book called for and i visually inspected all the way around it. I have 120psi compression on both cylinders. I didn't leave any rags in the motor - I checked - good call. For the record I did leave the balancing tube off for the first few sets of kicks. Whoops!

Still just getting a pop or two at first kick and then nothing.




Last edited by pduff; 04/08/19 6:49 pm.
Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770515
04/08/19 8:34 pm
04/08/19 8:34 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,529
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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gavin eisler  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,529
argyll. scotland, uk
Have you tried swapping the pickup leads, ? Either switch cores at the pick ups or at the EI box whichever is convenient.
When the leads are the wrong way around it throws the timing miles off, all you will get is a pop in the exhaust.
Try moving black white to black yellow, only takes a minute to test.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770556
04/09/19 5:45 am
04/09/19 5:45 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,421
Crossville, TN
DavidP Online content

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DavidP  Online Content

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Posts: 5,421
Crossville, TN
Do you have a wired 'ground' connection directly to the head of the engine?
Most early wiring harnesses lack this, and most electronic ignitions require it.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770575
04/09/19 12:00 pm
04/09/19 12:00 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,529
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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gavin eisler  Offline
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Posts: 4,529
argyll. scotland, uk
Apart from the pilot jet there are two other holes in the carbs that are critical for the pilot system.
On the floor of the carb throat just fore and aft of the carb slide motor side lip, are two small holes which deliver pilot mix, they are slightly larger than the pilot jet, one is bigger than the other , these can be poked with a guitar string that has a 90 degree bend at the end.

Given that the ignition system was left undisturbed, timing checks out OK and comp is decent, it seems like it can only be carbs, but it doesnt even fire with starting fluid. Thats weird, even a totally blocked carb will show some life with starting fluid. Which brings us back to sparks.
Dave P makes a good point about a dedicated motor earth, always a good idea.
The rear centre rocker cover mount is fairly handy for this.

Other stuff that could go wrong, ignition switch . fuse holder , always a good idea to clean the fuse in case it has furred up. An external spark does not necessarily mean that it sparks under pressure. A high resistance connection somewhere in the ignition supply chain maybe reducing coil output.
With the fuse removed for testing.
If you have a meter put it on low ohms range and check across the ignition switch contacts, open should be infinity or huge numbers. CLosed should be zero or 0.01 , if you get fluctuating numbers when closed this is a strong suspect. You may not be getting enough voltage at the coils for a decent spark.
If it is suspect and you have no meter, hot wire across the switch to elininate it for a temp test, if it starts and wont shut down pull the hot wire or fuse to kill.

Another possibility.
If you have 12 Volt ignition coils they may be struggling to light up the mix with your refreshed top end.
Using 6 volt coils with EI is a very good idea unless your CR is under 7:1

Last edited by gavin eisler; 04/09/19 12:05 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770578
04/09/19 12:34 pm
04/09/19 12:34 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,464
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy

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Allan Gill  Online Happy

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West Yorkshire
If you’re plugs are getting wet, open the throttle full (not part way otherwise it will kick back) and kick it through, choke off if it’s fitted. If it eventually fires and runs then your running too rich.

Other mistake people make us getting the pushrods either in the wrong place or aiming at the wrong rockers. If your not sure, pull the cover and have a check. Short to the outer tappets and inlet rockers. Long to the middle tappets and exhausts rockers.

I have found I don’t get the pilot jets blocking up the same with the premier carbs as I did with the old press in bush pilot jet. But the welch plug as Gavin mentions may still get blocked and this will hinder starting or slow running (unless the bike has been started at WOT as above)


beerchug
Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770585
04/09/19 1:19 pm
04/09/19 1:19 pm
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 427
Chelmsford MA
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MarcB Offline
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Posts: 427
Chelmsford MA
Since you didn't touch timing I would concentrate on the things that have changed, like valve timing (as mentioned) or carbs. The "one pop on first kick" still makes me think you're not getting the fuel you need.

One way I use to tell if hard starting is fuel related is to do a few easy kicks with the ignition off to "preload" the chamber, sometimes with my finger against the carb slides to act as a choke (I don't run choke slides). Then, turn on the ignition and kick it with gusto. If this acts closer to starting, then I know I'm not getting enough fuel without the preload.

Sometimes, testing the extremes may not get the bike to start but it will point you in the right direction.

Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: MarcB] #770591
04/09/19 2:02 pm
04/09/19 2:02 pm
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6
Pennsylvania (PA)
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pduff Offline OP
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pduff  Offline OP
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Pennsylvania (PA)
Good ideas guys!


I checked the pushrods - long ones in the center to control exhaust and shorter on the outside for the intakes. Also I am using 6volt coils and I have a fancy high tech controller on the bike from Motogadget (Zee Germans) so I will not have any resistance issues with the ignition switch as it is run (and was run for 300miles) on a tiny little 24ga wire into the motogadget controller that has fault detection via bluetooth and and positive lights on it when the ignition output to the pazon is active. No jokes on that stuff until I get it running. wink

I will swap the yellow/blk wht/blk pickup leads, but I ran a homerun set of wires from a new pazon that last week.

I will run a new ground strap to the head - Not a bad idea at all

I pulled the pilot jets out a little - like 2 turns, and blow through the front of the carb at the polit air intake hole and it is blowing strong out the small little holes inside the carb at the mixing chamber above the welch plug thingy. I can't feel any air when I fully seat the pilot jet - I guess because it is only .016". But I know it and the polit jets are clear.

I will WOT starts to preload. Also I am not sure what MarcB meant with the "finger"

Also I just thought of something - I am going to try to pull my clutch cable off the lever completely and assure I have full engagement to get as much power from my kicks to the motor. I didn't adjust the clutch from the primary cover all winter since it ran, so that is something I did (disconnect the lever) so it is suspect.

Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770593
04/09/19 2:44 pm
04/09/19 2:44 pm
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 427
Chelmsford MA
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MarcB Offline
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MarcB  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 427
Chelmsford MA
Originally Posted by pduff


I will WOT starts to preload. Also I am not sure what MarcB meant with the "finger"


Essentially, I stick my finger into the slide cutaway to block off the air and act as a choke while I kick the motor over a few times. Nothing fancy.

Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770596
04/09/19 3:08 pm
04/09/19 3:08 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 753
Ewing. NJ
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edunham Offline
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Ewing. NJ
Try a fresh set of plugs

Ed from NJ

Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770604
04/09/19 5:34 pm
04/09/19 5:34 pm
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 6
Pennsylvania (PA)
P
pduff Offline OP
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Pennsylvania (PA)
I got it running!!!! It was indeed the pickup wires that were swapped. I must have had them swapped from the marks on the pickup plate last year when I installed it and forgot. Also I needed to preload with fuel with a WOT as suggested. Started on teh first kick after that. Thanks for all your help and ideas!!!

It is running strong and and not burning any oil. Rings seated instantly - no smoke. I verified that the oil was returning to the tank and then took for a quick ride through one heat cycle with varying RPMS around the neighborhood. So far no leaks or smoke or anything. I will do a couple more heat cycles and then retorque the head and check everything. Planning to run the breakin oil for a few hundred miles and keep an eye on the wet sumping.

I am so happy! Will post a picture soon.

Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770605
04/09/19 5:50 pm
04/09/19 5:50 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,464
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy

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Allan Gill  Online Happy

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Posts: 5,464
West Yorkshire
Great news!! Glad you have it sorted. Others will comment on the break in oil, but I do like it myself.

Enjoy your riding.


beerchug
Re: A65 top end rebuild - NO START [Re: pduff] #770617
04/09/19 7:54 pm
04/09/19 7:54 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,621
melbourne florida
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bodine031 Offline
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melbourne florida
Good news!! Don't forget to readjust valves after retorque. Valvoline VR-1 good oil and easy to get, also MAP Cycle in St Pete Fl. sells a nice oil filter kit that uses a Trident o/f cartridge. Have fun!! I ride my Hornet all over the place big fun.


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