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Ignition Timing Tool #770221
04/05/19 7:08 pm
04/05/19 7:08 pm
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Southampton, Hants, UK
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Starfire Offline OP
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I need to set the ignition timing on my 1965 (February) A65 and I have the tool, 68-0710, to lock the crank.

My question is which way up should the tool go?

The 1965 manual says use the A65 setting (seems obvious) but the 1966 and later says only use the A50 setting.

Do the later manuals supercede the earlier one or do I have to abide by the 1965 one?

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Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770224
04/05/19 7:26 pm
04/05/19 7:26 pm
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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To be honest, I'm not sure it makes much difference which way round the tool goes.

I just use a suitably sized allen key which fits snugly in the crank to set the static timing. I then rotate the electronic ignition stator so it aligns with the dot on the rotor, things may differ if you have points.

Once the static timing is set and the bike starts OK, you need to verify the timing using a strobe on the alternator rotor.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: gunner] #770225
04/05/19 7:32 pm
04/05/19 7:32 pm
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Southampton, Hants, UK
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Starfire Offline OP
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Thanks, it is elecronic igintion that I'm using.

I read about the Allen key trick only after shelling out for the tool!

BTW, the 1965 doesn't have marks or the inspection panel for strobe timing.

Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770229
04/05/19 7:49 pm
04/05/19 7:49 pm
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West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Depending on which way you have the key determines if the crank is static timed at 37 or 34 degrees. You are best to time with a strobe light after (the timing light position is for 34 degrees)


beerchug
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Allan Gill] #770234
04/05/19 8:51 pm
04/05/19 8:51 pm
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Southampton, Hants, UK
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Starfire Offline OP
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As I said above, the 1965 motor does not have timing marks for a strobe.

Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770235
04/05/19 8:59 pm
04/05/19 8:59 pm
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West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Originally Posted by Starfire
As I said above, the 1965 motor does not have timing marks for a strobe.


No but it doesn’t stop you removing the cover and mounting a wire for the strobe timing. I have seen this shown in one of the many bsa manuals. Should you wish. Alternately, the half moon at the top is 34 degrees and half moon down is 37. Unlike points you can’t accurately (or nearly accurately) time the ignition from static. Best bet is to adjust the timing either way until it runs at its best for speed and torque.

The A50 setting is 34 and should superceed the earlier manuals. However I have ran with timing More advanced the 37 degrees with no detriment.


beerchug
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770244
04/05/19 10:41 pm
04/05/19 10:41 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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Stick an allen key in the slot, set up your static timing using the anti clock hole at the pick up plate, take off the primary chaincase, clean the alternator rotor face and stator with de greaser where convenient, paint a thin white line radially across the rotor and stator. These are your first strobe marks.
Remove the allen key, put the key slot cover on. Start the bike and strobe it to the paint marks , it will probably be retarded, Boyers often err to retarded, better than too advanced for a first start., use the EI pick up plate to correct this, turn clockwise to advance. Even if the marks arent dead on you now have a reference point for the strobe, you may need to tweak this later. No pointers needed. Box it up and ride.
If the bike pinks under load . Retard a little, no need to take the primary off, make a sharpie mark from case to pick up plate then nudge the plate anti clockwise a bare mm , if you think it needs more advance, keep advancing till it pinks then back off a touch. Should be about right. Once happy, the next time the primary case is off strobe it and adjust the paint marks if needed to suit your happy spot. This might save you a lot of bother in the future. better still get a later primary case with the strobe plate .


Last edited by gavin eisler; 04/05/19 10:49 pm. Reason: chirality

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770245
04/05/19 10:45 pm
04/05/19 10:45 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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Or you could skip the whole strobe palaver, use the static timing slot then simply advance the timing till pinking and back off a touch, Even using the strobe marks thats what I end up doing.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770247
04/05/19 10:50 pm
04/05/19 10:50 pm
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Auckland NZ
Ignoramus Offline
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ive always liked those degree wheels ........set a wire pointer at zero on tdc and go back from there ......takes away the guess work


"There's the way it ought to be and there's the way it is" (Sgt Barnes)
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770300
04/06/19 3:39 pm
04/06/19 3:39 pm
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just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
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nert Offline
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Being conservative in nature, and gasoline not having the octane rating it used to have, I time a little late, 34 degrees on my 1966 Lightning. I am still using points, and like you don't have a strobe option. I don't want to change the cover. I like the looks of the no-access cover. I use a dial indicator in the spark plug hole method to find 34' before TDC, and set both left and right points. I rotate the engine multiple times as I view the dial indicator, and listen for the audible response from my with Ohm meter indicating when the points open. I make repeated minor adjustments to the points plate to get as close as i can to the desired .3045 inches from top dead center. I can get both points within .5 degrees of each other, which is as close as I might expect to get looking at a strobe light. Very happy with the results.

However, I don't think we answered your question. What degree timing does the 1965 A65 spec call for? The flywheel rotates in the same direction of wheel travel as I have been told. So putting the plug in with A65 showing upright will give you earlier timing (advanced). Putting the plug in with the A50 up will give you later timing. I never liked the plug method, as it doesnt take into account the backlash in the timing gears, and other general "slop" that might be incurred statically. The dial indicator method is better, as it does at least load the timing gears and is more faithful to the pistons position at EXACTLY 34 degrees before TDC. Strobe is easiest, certainly loads the gears, and is accurate for getting both cylinders the same. However, due to multiple, compounding, possible manufacturing tolerance issues with the alternator rotor and marking, key, keyway cut, side cover manufacturing, side cover installation, and pointer location, strobe light parallax, etc, strobe light timing is not as accurate for indicating piston location before TDC. IMHO. If max performance is what your after, gavins "pinking" method will get you there.

Last edited by nert; 04/07/19 12:08 am. Reason: to correct incorrect information about crank rotation

keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770330
04/06/19 8:25 pm
04/06/19 8:25 pm
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Southampton, Hants, UK
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Starfire Offline OP
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So, I did the job today using the tool in the 34deg position.

Put it all back together and it started first kick! Stopped and started a few more times and it was first kick every kick so I'm more than happy with that.
Oh and it revs and idles fine on the stand too.

Just need to go on a ride now to see if it runs as expected and then check plug colour on return.


Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770336
04/06/19 10:16 pm
04/06/19 10:16 pm
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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Quote
maybe you were thinking of the idler pinion with the points cam.


Yes your'e right Gavin, lost spark firing is 360 degrees at the crank.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770339
04/06/19 11:08 pm
04/06/19 11:08 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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Dont fret too much about the plugs unless they are under obvious duress, modern fuel isnt like the old pictures.
Dont expect a nice tan. new plugs will still look clean unless its mega rich.

Get your idle mix set after a warm up. then try advancing a baw hair at a time till you get pinking under load, like too high a gear on a slope. Not good practice but it is a tell.
Hooray that its going.
An over advanced motor will feel ruff , bits might fall off ruff, if it pinks easily and feels ruff then back off twa baw hairs, if you are blonde then 3 baw hairs, an over retarded motor will blue the pipes fast , start V easy and feel a bit gutless. Somewhere in the middle is about right.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 04/06/19 11:15 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770340
04/06/19 11:18 pm
04/06/19 11:18 pm
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nert Offline
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gavin
you are correct, the crankshaft does rotate same direction as wheel rotation, the points cam rotates opposite wheel rotation.

-*-My question for Starfire??? Did you time with the timing plug A50 up or A65 up?

Starfire, glad it has worked for you. Keep in mind, during kick over, timing is a lot less advanced, as the advance mechanism is in its its relaxed state. (sorry, speaking of points systems only) The Lucas mechanical advance unit for my bike is stamped 12 degrees. I dont know if that means the unit provides 12' advance beyond base timing, or if it means it fires at 12' before TDC if full advance is properly set to 34'? Good question for all the experts out there!!! However, if you are using one of the "electronic" point replacement systems, you will have to inquire to the manufacturer as to what degree of timing is applied when starting.

Last edited by nert; 04/07/19 12:15 am.

keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770343
04/06/19 11:45 pm
04/06/19 11:45 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
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New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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Nert--the A/R mechanism being stamped 12 degrees means that the range of the A/R m4echanism is 12 degrees.
As the points drive is at half engine speed then the 12 degrees on the A/R mechanism is equivalent to 24 crankshaft degrees.
You normally set the ignition timing with the A/R mechanism fixed in the fully advanced position (using wedges etc) and then time the ignition for 34 degrees or whatever the book (or experience) calls for.
Then you remove the wedges etc and start the bike.
If you have timed the bike at 34 degrees BTDC then at idle the timing will be (34-24) degrees BTDC = 10 degrees BTDC.
HTH


Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770350
04/07/19 12:20 am
04/07/19 12:20 am
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nert Offline
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Gavin
I edited my post with the incorrect statements. Hope it will be more helpful if someone reads it and is expecting correct information.


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770359
04/07/19 2:34 am
04/07/19 2:34 am
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New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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Gavin--nert was questioning the meaning of the 12 degree marking on the A/R unit--hence my response.

Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770364
04/07/19 3:34 am
04/07/19 3:34 am
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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T man OK, took it down.My apologies


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: nert] #770377
04/07/19 10:51 am
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Southampton, Hants, UK
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Starfire Offline OP
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A50 position i.e cutaway to the top.

Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: gavin eisler] #770378
04/07/19 10:54 am
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Starfire Offline OP
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Gavin, what in the world are 'baw hairs'?

Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770380
04/07/19 12:26 pm
04/07/19 12:26 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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A black baw hair is about 0.004", a blonde around 0.0025.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770382
04/07/19 12:55 pm
04/07/19 12:55 pm
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nert Offline
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Starfire sounds like you are successful. Enjoy!


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770477
04/08/19 11:12 am
04/08/19 11:12 am
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Originally Posted by Starfire
As I said above, the 1965 motor does not have timing marks for a strobe.


Then put some on.
SRM from memory do a protractor that sits on the end of the alternator .
Static timing is just not up to the job on a unit twin ( or single for that matter ) BSA
even a length of white pait pen mark scratched through with a scriber will be better than the piston drop.
It is just not accurate enough.


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Trevor
Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: Starfire] #770488
04/08/19 1:51 pm
04/08/19 1:51 pm
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Gavin--certainly no need for apologies.
We are all here to help each other and are all big boys--no offense taken.

Re: Ignition Timing Tool [Re: BSA_WM20] #770493
04/08/19 2:47 pm
04/08/19 2:47 pm
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Starfire Offline OP
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If it starts and runs ok then that's good enough for me. Hopefully I won't need to set it again.

I don't want to get involved with removing the primary cover to time it!

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