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Timing, wiring or points question #769716
03/31/19 5:18 pm
03/31/19 5:18 pm
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 13
North Bay, ON, CA
M
Mr Kym Offline OP
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Mr Kym  Offline OP
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M

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 13
North Bay, ON, CA
Hi All,
Thanks in advance for any help. I am new to BSA bikes and mostly points systems. I am trying to start my 1968 BSA A65L, my procedure is the open the petcocks, tickle the carb, kick it over a few times, find the compression, release the kickstart and kick it over. Then bamm. Really bad backfire.

The smoke always comes out of the left pipe. Is there any chance the last guy who owned the bike, rewired the points to the wrong capacitor and the wrong cylinder isfiring? If I switch them to check would I hurt anything? The bike doesn't try to run any further.

I can't work on the timing myself so I would have to find someone to do it and teach me at the same time.

Any words of wisdom?

Last edited by Mr Kym; 03/31/19 5:27 pm. Reason: added info
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Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #769717
03/31/19 5:32 pm
03/31/19 5:32 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,923
Scotland
kommando Online content
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kommando  Online Content
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Scotland
Could be 180 degrees out, try swapping the HT leads over at the plugs so the coils fire the opposite plug.

Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #769720
03/31/19 5:41 pm
03/31/19 5:41 pm
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,308
arkansas
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leon bee Offline
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arkansas
Not about timing, but are you using brand new clean sparkplugs? And nice fresh fuel?

Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #769724
03/31/19 6:27 pm
03/31/19 6:27 pm
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 13
North Bay, ON, CA
M
Mr Kym Offline OP
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Mr Kym  Offline OP
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M

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 13
North Bay, ON, CA
Yes the plugs are new, the fuel is fresh and swapping the plug wires made it backfire through the carb.

Any other ideas?

Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #769735
03/31/19 6:55 pm
03/31/19 6:55 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,464
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy

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West Yorkshire
Yes, don’t kick it to compression, just kick it through. Your quite possibly just filling the cylinder with fuel.


beerchug
Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #769736
03/31/19 6:57 pm
03/31/19 6:57 pm
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,308
arkansas
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leon bee Offline
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arkansas
If the bike has been dormant some time, it could be a b*tch to start the first time. I'm saying this as one who knows. When did it last run, and how- is that information available? What I mean is: if it has sat, you need to look at everything. Make sure the points are clean and gapped correctly. All wire connections clean and tight. I wouldn't start changing things like timing yet.

Even at the best of times every bike has it's precise starting ritual, must be followed rigorously. And while you are kicking away at it, there is a very fine line between sounding completely dead........and almost ready to fire. I'm old, so if I think everything else is okay I pull the plugs and put dry ones in after 6 or 8 kicks.

I sold a rough 68 Lightning to a young guy here in town. It took a while to show him you gotta MAKE that sucker run. For a long time I could start it with a couple kicks, while he could not. So get a box of 4 new Champion N4C plugs and start checking everything else.

One small detail that can make twin carb bikes fussier to start is if the carb slides are not synched. That is they should lift just the same, at the same time. Don't give in: unless something in there is broke, she'll run.

Next discussion will probably be about the carbs.

Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: leon bee] #769744
03/31/19 7:52 pm
03/31/19 7:52 pm
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 13
North Bay, ON, CA
M
Mr Kym Offline OP
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Mr Kym  Offline OP
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M

Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 13
North Bay, ON, CA
Well turned off the fuel, drained the bowl, kicked and kicked and kicked and kicked, opened the fuel back up kicked it some more and it ran for about 10 seconds.... sputtered really, with no backfire. I think the throttle needle came out of the hole in the carb becuase the cable is super loose but I can fix that. Is it normal for the throttle to turn both directions? There is no stop for it.

Tore the carb apart and came to realize the choke slider inaide is missing. This whole time I thought the choke was on.

Last edited by Mr Kym; 03/31/19 7:58 pm. Reason: added info
Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #769763
04/01/19 12:39 am
04/01/19 12:39 am
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,308
arkansas
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leon bee Offline
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arkansas
Only one carb? Meaning it has a Thunderbolt head on it? If so, that's real good for a Britbike rookie. Throttle twist grip should feel and act like any other bike. If it doesn't have the choke parts in there that's because the choke setup is pretty marginal on these and somebody just deleted it. For me, the chokes just barely help, but they DO help a bit. Almost none of my bikes have chokes on them.

When you get the throttle and needle deal sorted, you may be close. Now put those new clean plugs in. Tickle it until gas runs all over everything. Open the throttle just a little more than you were and kick with some alacrity!

If she just stays dead, that's when you have to begin adjusting your approach. Tickle it more, (or less). Open throttle more, (or less). Choke it with you hand over the carb intake, etc., etc. Dry the plugs off.

Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #769770
04/01/19 1:37 am
04/01/19 1:37 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,740
Springfield Nebraska
Richrd Offline
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Springfield Nebraska
There are many things that could be causing this. Those of us who are used to these bikes just have an automatic routine we go thru when we have a problem.

If it was in my shop, I would clean the pilot jet, check that the points are set up right, check the static timing, and do a quick compression test then try to start it.

If still bad, I would bypass the kill switch, if still no joy I would wire in 2 known good coils.

That just covered everything ,,, almost

Now about the throttal? It should work like every other bike, rotate to the rear to open the carb, return to a stop under spring pressure. Dont worry about not having the choke unless you plan on riding in cold weather.


Rich (member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

69 bonney
72 commando
75 commando interstate
06 Suzu..Suzu.. uh appliance
couple of beesas a ducati
and the Snake Bike
and a Honda?
Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #769775
04/01/19 2:40 am
04/01/19 2:40 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,721
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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When there is no spring tension on the throttle control, it means that the throttle slide is sticking in the carburetor, or the throttle cable is sticking in its sheath.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #769788
04/01/19 5:53 am
04/01/19 5:53 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,421
Crossville, TN
DavidP Online content

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Crossville, TN
Originally Posted by Mr Kym
Hi All,
The smoke always comes out of the left pipe.

Sounds like wet sumping. If the bike has sat for long on the side stand that happens. Remove the sump plate at the bottom of the engine and see how much oil comes out. Very little oil should come out, but I bet there's too much in there. Put the plate back on and try again.

Originally Posted by Mr Kym

Tore the carb apart and came to realize the choke slider inaide is missing. This whole time I thought the choke was on.

Removing the chokes is common in the US, but the hole for the choke cable must be plugged. My own A65 has no chokes. Not a problem when the temperature is warm. But it only tries to start when it's under about 60 degrees, won't take throttle and won't stay running.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: leon bee] #769812
04/01/19 12:24 pm
04/01/19 12:24 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,464
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy

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West Yorkshire
Originally Posted by leon bee
Only one carb? Meaning it has a Thunderbolt head on it?



Unless the OP is talking about a different bike to his other thread its a Royal Star (500cc)


beerchug
Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #769844
04/01/19 5:09 pm
04/01/19 5:09 pm
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,308
arkansas
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leon bee Offline
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arkansas
^^Post #1 on this one says 68 A65L. I guess he's not sure.

Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #769856
04/01/19 8:37 pm
04/01/19 8:37 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,529
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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Posts: 4,529
argyll. scotland, uk
Its has points?

There is every chance anything could have happened.
Before you get someone who does know to check the timing heres a few Simple checks, must do sort of stuff.
Clean the points, check all connections are sound and clean,


If the carb has sat with fuel in it for a long time previously then the pilot jet will be blocked, if you dont have a #78 drill to clean it , it will stay blocked, no amount of air or solvents will unplug it. This comes up a lot, google "AMAL pilot jet , Bushman".

Typically a bike with a blocked pilot jet will run from cold on the fuel overspill from tickling, once that runs out, nothing, it dies. Fix / lube the cable ,
Very Important info next for your own safety.
check the slide is free to travel all the way up and down , carbs get distorted is easily, this can cause the slide to bind at or near the top of its stroke, not a good thing. If it is doing this you need a new carb.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #769911
04/02/19 3:54 pm
04/02/19 3:54 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,777
Mississauga, Ontario.
A
Adam M. Offline
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Adam M.  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,777
Mississauga, Ontario.
You are in North Bay, so probably still colder than Toronto.
You will need a choke.
Perhaps we should start with a picture of your bike ?

Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Adam M.] #769916
04/02/19 4:26 pm
04/02/19 4:26 pm
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 566
Rotherham, UK
Ian Clifton Offline

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Rotherham, UK
Originally Posted by Adam M.
You are in North Bay, so probably still colder than Toronto.
You will need a choke.
Perhaps we should start with a picture of your bike ?


Pictures were posted on another thread Adam.. HTH

http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbt...sh-bikes-with-a-few-questions#Post769674


Just a few Beezers.. ☺

Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #769956
04/02/19 9:44 pm
04/02/19 9:44 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,777
Mississauga, Ontario.
A
Adam M. Offline
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Mississauga, Ontario.
Thank you Ian.
This picture doesn't show much, but my money is on 67 or 68 A50 - one carb 500 cc model.
Didn't 68 A50 have double l.s. front brake, the same A65 had ?
If you have one carb there just take it off together with cable and a throttle and take a throttle apart and check way it doesn't work as it should.
You have a carb apart already so buy yourself some carb cleaner in a can, unscrew an air screw from a side and spray carb cleaner in blocking main jet from with your finger.
I believe you have top of the carb with a zlide and needle unscrewed so look at 2 orifices under a slide to see if you get any carb cleaner through them.
If not your idle circuit is clogged and you need to unclogge it.
This page will show you how to do it :

http://www.jba.bc.ca/Bushmans%20Carb%20Tuning.html

Clogged idle system prevents your bike from starting.

Last edited by Adam M.; 04/02/19 9:47 pm.
Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: leon bee] #769997
04/03/19 2:48 am
04/03/19 2:48 am
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 13
North Bay, ON, CA
M
Mr Kym Offline OP
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Mr Kym  Offline OP
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Posts: 13
North Bay, ON, CA
@leon bee The bike is a Royal Star 500 but the motor is stamped A65L. If it was an A50 wouldn't it be stamped that way? I assumed someone changed the motor and put an A65L in.

Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #770006
04/03/19 5:00 am
04/03/19 5:00 am
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Posts: 3,308
arkansas
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leon bee Offline
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OK, so it's a 500 that had the engine blown and a 650 put in. Quick before I forget, your cases look to NOT be the ones had a dipstick for the gearbox. So a dipstick ain't gonna work, you need to change the gearbox drain plug or just use a measured amount. Yes, when it gets that milkshake look means water got in there. A65L what? I don't mean the exact number, but A65L is 1966, A65LA in 1967 and A65LB is 1968. 66 and 67 cases did not use that dipstick, 68 and later did.

And then the single carb head is from a Thunderbolt engine. (Unless it has an A50 head on it, don't think that'd work too well). So you have an engine built up from spare parts. Come to think of it, you gotta count the barrel fins to be sure it's an A65. Could be a 650 bottom end with a 500 top end. Nothing wrong with all this, it's what many of us do.

Please continue to keep us abreast, we wanna know when you get her running. I just a couple days ago got one of my winter projects started, a 67 that was worn out and put away 40 years ago.

Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #770007
04/03/19 5:12 am
04/03/19 5:12 am
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,308
arkansas
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leon bee Offline
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It occurs to me I could explain the dipstick/oil fill hole deal better. 67 and earlier engines the gearbox oil fill hole is in the crankcase section of the engine........and I can see this in the 2nd pic you linked to. Starting with 68, the hole has a dipstick and is in the inner timing cover section of the engine. Don't know why, just modernization I guess. The covers are interchangeable. You can build an engine with two filler holes, or one with no way to get oil in there. But like I said, you don't need to buy a dipstick cause it won't work.

Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: leon bee] #770034
04/03/19 12:43 pm
04/03/19 12:43 pm
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Posts: 5,464
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Online happy

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West Yorkshire
Originally Posted by leon bee


And then the single carb head is from a Thunderbolt engine. (Unless it has an A50 head on it, don't think that'd work too well).


It wouldn't work very well at all, the centre bolt wouldn't fit for a start.


beerchug
Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: Mr Kym] #770060
04/03/19 7:05 pm
04/03/19 7:05 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,003
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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I recently had almost exactly the same problem on my 68 A65 Firebird, which uses twin carbs, Pazon EI and had been standing for a few months over the winter. Although my setup is different there may be some grain of useful info as follows.

Last autumn I decided to fix the wet sumping problem I had been experiencing by swapping out the anti drain ball and spring with new versions. This involved removing the inner timing cover and EI pickup/rotor. All components went back together but I didn't get the chance to start her up until last week.

I fondly imagined that that my bike would start up first or second kick as previous, however this was not to be. Despite a fully charged battery, new plugs, tickling and repeated kicking all I got was massive backfire from the left hand silencer. I then decided to drain the carbs, clean out the pilot jets with a #78 drill, check the timing and use fresh fuel. Still no joy but repeated backfires which didn't please the neighbours.

Next I checked the ignition circuit by removing the plugs kicking over and checking for sparks. I found that both plugs were firing but there was only one spark every revolution instead of two, note EI ignitions use the wasted spark principle and fire every 180 degrees. Upon close inspection I found that one of the Pazon trigger wires at the pickup plate was loose and also a single loose strand may have been in contact with the opposite wire, once rectified the bike started first kick.

Since you have a single carb, I'm inclined to think your problems are ignition related given the symptoms described. I don't use chokes in my AMAL 930;s and they aren't 100% necessary although others find them useful. Make sure a return spring is fitted to the throttle slide, the throttle twist grip should return to closing almost by itself.

You dont mention which points plate is fitted, I believe either a 4ca or 6ca type, I have no experience of these but suspect this together with the AAU and Coil(s) may be one source of your problem. Some further details of your ignition setup would be useful.

Last edited by gunner; 04/03/19 8:21 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Timing, wiring or points question [Re: DavidP] #770064
04/03/19 7:55 pm
04/03/19 7:55 pm
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,333
Arlington, Massachusetts 02474
kurt fischer Online content
#irideslow
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Arlington, Massachusetts 02474
Originally Posted by DavidP

Sounds like wet sumping. If the bike has sat for long on the side stand that happens. Remove the sump plate at the bottom of the engine and see how much oil comes out. Very little oil should come out, but I bet there's too much in there. Put the plate back on and try again.


^^ This. ^^ Whether side stand, center stand, no stand.

Last edited by kurt fischer; 04/03/19 8:15 pm.

Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
1980 Suzuki GS1000G - 2005 Ducati Multistrada 1000S - 2012 Ducati Hypermotard 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000

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