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MAP clutch #768191 03/15/19 7:27 pm
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Mori55 Offline OP
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I redid my clutch , new basket , center and map no drag clutch kit , plates and all. I even got the alloy pressure plate and new springs. All the cups seem fine. Made sure the notches and nuns lined up. Used type f auto fluid as per map instructions.
I adjusted 1/2 and 1/4 out with slack cable. Goes into gear fine but slips. I’ve had this apart 6 times and tried everything adjustment wise. I’ve turned spring screws a little tighter than flush. Made sure the plate ran true with a pointer even got the dial indicator out.
Put the stock pressure plate back on with original clutch rod.
I’ve called map up and we’re told they sell a lot of these and use in racing bikes. I’m seriously thinking of getting EMGO clutch plates.
Even checked the new basket with a dial indicator to make sure it was flat were the first friction plate goes. Plates are not binding. They move nice and free.

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Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768194 03/15/19 8:00 pm
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Cork lined plates fixed slip on mine, though I did apply an extra layer of cork on the basket, with an extra plain plate. It’s the Pete Russell cheapo upgrade.

If the EMGO plates are cork, they are well worth trying in a clutch that gets oily and then slips.

Last edited by triton thrasher; 03/15/19 8:01 pm.

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Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768195 03/15/19 8:07 pm
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Mori55 Offline OP
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I don’t get it. The map clutch is their premium clutch made to run with atf oil.
They said they are basically automatic transmission clutches. I just don’t know why these are slipping. But I’m sick of pulling the primary cover off.

Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768197 03/15/19 8:18 pm
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My problem was with Surflex plates, which is also a well-known brand. Tried the narrow-lined ones sometimes called “stiletto effect” but it still slipped as soon as oil reached the plates, which always happened after a couple of hundred miles.

I was also annoyed that so many other people didn’t seem to be having the same problems.


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Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768198 03/15/19 8:22 pm
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TR7RVMan Offline
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Morri, Exactly how long are your springs? What is the wire diameter? How many coils rounded to the 1/2 coil?

What is the stack height of all the clutch plates together? I mean the new ones.

How bad does the clutch slip? Try to tell us what you feel on a road test.

If in 2nd or 3rd gear, if you pull in clutch & rev motor so say 4000 (that you'll have guess with no tach), then pop the clutch like you wanted to do wheelie, does it grab & [***] ahead or go whaaaaaaa then gradually take on power? Or do you have to back off throttle to get power transfer? This is what I'd like to know.

Your rod adjustment is screw in until you feel zero play NOT lifting plate at all with lots of free play at lever while the play is zero?

This simply is not making sense. There is something going on that is not right.

Before you remove primary again, use the depth gauge on you're Vernier caliper & measure pressure plate lift.

Refresh my memory, what did the original old plates do?

Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768201 03/15/19 8:36 pm
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The one thing you didn't tell us was the quantity of oil you added to the chaincase.
An overdose of oil is a major cause of clutch slip.
The internals of a Triumph clutch are intended to be pretty much dry. The oil is mainly for lubing the chain and sprockets.
The oil level should only be such that the chain just dips into it at its lowest point, under the clutch.
This is much less than the manual's spec. about 150ml should do.
You can judge through the cap with a bent wire, or simply check that oil is being picked up by the chain as you turn the engine.

Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768204 03/15/19 8:57 pm
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Mori55 Offline OP
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CarQuest type f automatic fluid 350 cc. Map said to run this oil as there plates are basically auto transmission plates. Then I checked the level on the level plug. These are like a red plate.
Don I adjust like you said I didn’t check the stack height since it was all new. To check the other stuff I have to pull primary cover. The more I ran it the more it slipped. 3rd and 4th were the worse. I’ll take it out later or tomorrow to check the other.

Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768209 03/15/19 9:47 pm
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That is a huge amount of oil.

Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768211 03/15/19 10:05 pm
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I'd drain and go for a 20 mile ride, it will take that to spin the oil off the clutch and won't do any damage at all.

See if it behaves any better as the miles go by, I suspect it will.

Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768212 03/15/19 10:05 pm
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Mori55 Offline OP
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Here it is.
[Linked Image]
I’ll try that drain and run.

Last edited by Mori55; 03/15/19 10:07 pm.
Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768214 03/15/19 10:23 pm
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koan58 Offline
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Yes, and I'm sure it is excessive. I have no idea why Triumph put that in the manual, a simple mistake is not impossible?

On the later units with the "self adjusting chaincase oil level" folk generally report draining 100-200ml. Don TR7RV may be informative on this.

The earlier pre-units, which had a much longer chaincase, was advised to employ 1/3 pint (190ml) which through 40 years experience has proven to be way too much. 120ml is nearer the mark.

I'm sure that specs would always err on the safe side, quite why they went so far over the top with the earlier unit manual is anyone's guess.

Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768217 03/15/19 10:29 pm
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desco Online Happy
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My shop mauals all say 350. I crossed that out years ago and wrote in 1/4 pint. About 120 cc. cc vs ml, whats the dif?


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768218 03/15/19 10:33 pm
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Mori55 Offline OP
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Is there anyway to just remove the clutch center and not the basket ? I just want check the key way.

Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768220 03/15/19 10:45 pm
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No, I'm afraid.

Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768221 03/15/19 11:08 pm
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Mori55 Offline OP
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I figured that , just going there was some top secret triumph way of doing it.

Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768229 03/16/19 12:06 am
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[Linked Image] Here they are. M

Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768230 03/16/19 12:09 am
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Mori55 Offline OP
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Key way is in.
[Linked Image]

Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768233 03/16/19 12:21 am
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Mori55 Offline OP
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Those plate plates are shiny, I sounder if I should bead plant them ? And put the friction plates in the ultrasonic cleaner with simple clean.

Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768247 03/16/19 9:12 am
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Hi Morri, I've used ATF in your type chain case from Orielly's F, Pennzoil F , Mercedes Benz 134, Pennzoil Dexron II & Mobil1 vtwin 20-50. All have worked well. Type F gave most friction on take off. None slipped at all.

On your type chain case I've always filled to the fill level plug. I've never done cc on filling. Just the level plug.

On the earlier primary breather bikes I always just used level plug. But in fact level ends up lower.

On the later bikes in real life I find 100-125cc in case after many miles of hard riding. That is very close to 1/2" deep if you stick a dowel or screw driver down to bottom behind chain. I've done this on several primary breather bikes & find it very consistent.

The '73 shop manual called for 350cc in my bike. I used to always do that. I never found it to cause slip even though was too much oil.

I have never ever installed a Triumph clutch plate dry. I always soak them until saturated with oil.

I've never had a slipping clutch that could not be accounted for. There was always a reason.

Back then I always used genuine plates. Then aftermarket with red friction material that resembles paper visually. Finally I now only do 7 plate which friction looks like brake pad material with some brass looking flakes in it. None of those slipped.

Looks like you have the primary off again. What do the springs measure?

I had slip with genuine Triumph 6 plate when I put in 650 springs on my '73 Tiger. Not bad slip though.

Hyde steel plates are not roughened or etched. They don't slip. They are smooth like cold rolled steel. Put a set in a 650 15 months ago & still no slip. Running Mercedes ATF134 oil filled to the level plug. Just did 100 mile ride with owner a few weeks ago. We switch bikes often. I felt no tendency to slip at all. Hyde 7 plate.

I've not used Emgo plates.

I'm wondering if your springs are the real problem?? Exactly what springs do you have? Then go from there. You could always use Barnett racing springs or 750 springs.

I'd like to get to the bottom of this even before recommending Hyde 7 plate. Hyde will for certain slip with 500 springs. It will slip if 650 springs are worn or not tight enough.

I still want to know stack height. There can be variation in thickness between different brands of plates. The one emgo purchased was so thick the outer plate wanted to slide off splines. Returned it. Owner decided to use Hyde.

So next step is measurements. Then go from there.

The right main shaft nut is tight isn't it? Grab clutch center hub very tightly. Push/pull very hard. Does the main shaft move in/out? It should have basically zero play.
Make sure clutch plates & pressure plate is installed before setting primary chain tension. Then go back & adjust pressure plate wobble. I think you did that.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768248 03/16/19 9:20 am
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Mori, Looking at photo, my 650 springs have 9.5 coils. I have some spare 650 springs, I count 9.5 on all them. They are different years/types, but all 650.

Looks like yours might have 9?? Yours might be thinner wire too?? What is actual length & wire diameter?

I don't have any 500 springs to compare.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768252 03/16/19 11:35 am
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Mike Baker Offline
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The only thing that comes to mind is the springs. 650 springs don't always get the job done IME. Maybe try 750 springs before you chuck the MAP kit. BTW, the Emgo clutch pack in my race bike is excellent. 750 springs, 10-40 synthetic MC oil, 250cc.

Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768267 03/16/19 3:18 pm
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Hello Mike Baker, 1 way to check if those new clutch plates slip is to take the whole clutch basket and another clutch shaft , mount the shaft in a strong vise and tighten the clutch center nut to the correct torque specs.wrap an old clutch chain around the drum.clamp the clutch chain in a good strong pair of vise grips , make sure the pates have oil on them ( just a coating) then try to turn the clutch basket. if it turns, try stronger springs. again try to turn the basket. if you notice a difficulty in moving it , you can pretty much narrow it down to the springs. If not ,remove the outer pressure plate and the bonded and steel plates, if you have a nice flat surface such as a piece of plate glass, take the steel plates 1 by 1 clean off the oil , place carefully one steel clutch plate on the glass & hold it down with light pressure ,see if you notice ANY rocking which indicates a warped plate, also try to go around the steel clutch plate with a ,003 feeler gauge if you notice ANY sliding of the feeler gauge also indicates a possible warped plate , also try a thicker feeler gauge if it moves under the clutch plate buy new steel plates.Next check the outer clutch hub for "notching" the same goes for the inner clutch basket, if you notice this ,dress as straight as possible(with a file without removing to much material this will help ensure the plates slide as intended, remove any excessive burrs which might cause binding, lastly check the length of your springs , which should be the same . Also make sure a top quality outer pressure plate is used that would help you "true" the rotating to help eliminate any "tight" spots. Hope it helps Trumpet 650.

Last edited by trumpet650; 03/16/19 3:25 pm. Reason: added note
Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768270 03/16/19 4:00 pm
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triton thrasher Offline
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750 clutch springs have distinct comfort disadvantages.


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Re: MAP clutch [Re: Mori55] #768274 03/16/19 5:12 pm
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...hello Mori, you are doing something wrong. I have the same plates and work PERFECT; are the only ones that you can let the bike for months (I know about it) parked and find that still working without sticking each other.
1/2 slack is too much. 1/8 of slack is what you need. 100cc of oil is what you need, the oils IS FOR the chain NOT for the plates.
Clean the plates and get rid of the oil its have before refit them.
Check for the pushrod play before the handlebar 1/8 play.
Check that the clutch nut is fitted right to 70 pounds.
Check that the basket and center part works separately.
Check the rubbers inside the center part.
Screw the springs a lot then check for about 1/8 of action every time you pull the handlebar.

Re: MAP clutch [Re: triton thrasher] #768283 03/16/19 6:56 pm
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Originally Posted by triton thrasher
750 clutch springs have distinct comfort disadvantages.

And they kill clutch cables.
+1 for cork and the Pete R mod, or a 7 plate kit with 650 springs.

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