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Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? #766625
02/27/19 3:15 pm
02/27/19 3:15 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,175
Gothenburg, Sweden
Morgan aka Admin Offline OP

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Morgan aka Admin  Offline OP

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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,175
Gothenburg, Sweden
Reading in BSA A65 workshop manual that after cleaning sludge trap one should either use Loctite to secure the plug or if not available centre-punch the plug to secure it.
Since I have not done this on any twins I owned, my old friend took care of it back in the days I wonder..
Nowadays it seems that the recommendation is to do both Loctite and centre-punched plug.. sort of double secure it. Am I right? how do you do it?

Last edited by Morgan aka Admin; 02/27/19 3:16 pm.

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Re: Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #766628
02/27/19 3:21 pm
02/27/19 3:21 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,557
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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West Yorkshire
John Healy has done an excellent post on vintage bike about sludge traps. My A65 was sealed with a smear of sealant and then centre popped the plug so that it goes into the previous center punched recess on the crank, that way not impacting on the crank web any more than it already has.


beerchug
Re: Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #766634
02/27/19 4:27 pm
02/27/19 4:27 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,585
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline

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ohio, usa
i haven't had the sludgetrap out of my T120 since before i knew about this site.

from which i have learned a vast amount of improving knowledge, so thank you, morgan.

anyway, i 've had it out twice, i think, and i p rick-punched two dimples in the crank cheek, not on the plug, so i think there are about four of them in there now. not knowing any better at the time.

when i next have it apart i'm going to see if i can polish those dimples smooth so that they're more like kirk douglas's chin than the pointy-sharp things they are now.

[Linked Image]


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Re: Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #766660
02/27/19 7:02 pm
02/27/19 7:02 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,557
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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West Yorkshire
laughing great explanation


beerchug
Re: Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #766726
02/28/19 9:31 am
02/28/19 9:31 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,032
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Online content
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Grind the plug, not the crank.
Use locktite and punch the plug slightly inboard of the old holes in the crank so the plug extrudes into the holes.
people forget, it is a plug, not a bolt so all you are doing is preventing vibrations from undoing it.
The loktite helps to make sure the threads are sealed.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #766734
02/28/19 1:30 pm
02/28/19 1:30 pm
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,067
Elburn, Ill. USA
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Irish Swede Offline
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Elburn, Ill. USA
Chemicals such as glues (Loctite) can melt or deteriorate when exposed to heat and oil.
"Mechanical" fixes like punch marks, DON'T.

Re: Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #766740
02/28/19 2:28 pm
02/28/19 2:28 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,546
melbourne florida
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bodine031 Offline
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melbourne florida
271 Loctite, 1 prik punch at 7-o-clock use the factory slot type plug It's the correct weight.

Re: Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #766781
02/28/19 10:12 pm
02/28/19 10:12 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,035
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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I would just use Loctite 270 or similar which is a high-strength threadlocker designed to permanently lock and seal assemblies but which can be disassembled by heating to 300°C.

Using a mechanical deformation process (e.g. a punch) will proberly do more harm than good so I dont see any advantage with this and it won't seal the threads.

A decent threadlock fluid should be more than sufficient by itself in my view.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? [Re: gunner] #766817
03/01/19 7:57 am
03/01/19 7:57 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,032
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Online content
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Originally Posted by gunner
I would just use Loctite 270 or similar which is a high-strength threadlocker designed to permanently lock and seal assemblies but which can be disassembled by heating to 300°C.

Using a mechanical deformation process (e.g. a punch) will proberly do more harm than good so I dont see any advantage with this and it won't seal the threads.

A decent threadlock fluid should be more than sufficient by itself in my view.


Granted, but there is already a punch or 2 in there as done by the factory so no reason not to go belts & bracesNot like you can nip it up at 1000 miles is it.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? [Re: BSA_WM20] #766832
03/01/19 12:27 pm
03/01/19 12:27 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,557
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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West Yorkshire
Originally Posted by Irish Swede
Chemicals such as glues (Loctite) can melt or deteriorate when exposed to heat and oil.
"Mechanical" fixes like punch marks, DON'T.


You mean some?

Many Locktite (or similar) products are designed to work with a certain amount of heat and oil.... The crucial thing is that the surfaces are both clean (preferably with spirits/solvents) and dry when the locktite is applied.

Applying a blow torch to an area before removing some bolts (good example is the flywheel bolts) will break down the strength of the locktite and expand the metals, easing the process, but I should think that this direct heat is more than what is generated as heat in the crank during use???

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Originally Posted by gunner
I would just use Loctite 270 or similar which is a high-strength threadlocker designed to permanently lock and seal assemblies but which can be disassembled by heating to 300°C.

Using a mechanical deformation process (e.g. a punch) will proberly do more harm than good so I dont see any advantage with this and it won't seal the threads.

A decent threadlock fluid should be more than sufficient by itself in my view.


Granted, but there is already a punch or 2 in there as done by the factory so no reason not to go belts & bracesNot like you can nip it up at 1000 miles is it.


My sentiments also


beerchug
Re: Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #766843
03/01/19 2:30 pm
03/01/19 2:30 pm
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 107
Oklahoma
T
Tracey Spear Offline
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Oklahoma
From what I've learned here and there, the oil that these engines were designed to use doesn't even exist any more. My understanding of the chemistry is quite limited, but given modern oils with detergent properties, will the sludge trap still trap sludge? Once cleaned, do modern oils render the trap ineffectual? Thus the need for an return line filter? Some of the information I've come across suggest that if the trap is not cleaned the modern oils will break down the sludge and begin to circulate all that crap back through the engine. For my part I will be using Loctite AND staking because if I do everything right, I don't plan on going back into the case again.

Re: Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? [Re: Morgan aka Admin] #766846
03/01/19 2:51 pm
03/01/19 2:51 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,877
Scotland
kommando Online content
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Scotland
There are detergents and dispersants in modern oil so you have to consider the properties of both, but regardless of the oil a filter in the return line and some magnets in the sump or on the filter will limit the build up in the sludge trap. The sludge once its in the trap is held in by centrifugal forces and binds together.

Re: Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? [Re: Tracey Spear] #766848
03/01/19 2:53 pm
03/01/19 2:53 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,546
melbourne florida
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bodine031 Offline
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melbourne florida
I run a MAP Cycle St.Pete Fl. oil filter kit on a Victor, a Hornet, & a Tri. 500 twin. It uses a Trident cartridge filter and is not to big and easy to mount.
Also been using Valvoline VR-1 oil for many years. Good for flat tappet engines lots of ZDDP

Re: Sludge trap plug Loctite or punch or both? [Re: Tracey Spear] #766902
03/02/19 3:14 am
03/02/19 3:14 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,032
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Online content
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Sydney Australia
Quote
From what I've learned here and there, the oil that these engines were designed to use doesn't even exist any more. My understanding of the chemistry is quite limited, but given modern oils with detergent properties, will the sludge trap still trap sludge? Once cleaned, do modern oils render the trap ineffectual? Thus the need for an return line filter? Some of the information I've come across suggest that if the trap is not cleaned the modern oils will break down the sludge and begin to circulate all that crap back through the engine. For my part I will be using Loctite AND staking because if I do everything right, I don't plan on going back into the case again.



The full flow centrifugal oil filter will still work regardless of the oil used unless the particles of crud have a lower specific gravity ( fancy word for weight ) than the oil around it.
The filter will not be as efficient as the detergents prevent the little bits f crud joining together to be big bits of crud.
Like any system of filtering the larger the difference in size & weight the easier it is to separate.
The reason why you hear people opening their sludgetraps & finding next to nothing there is the spin on filter got to the crud first.
Nothing whatsover to do with the oil.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 03/02/19 3:17 am.

Bike Beesa
Trevor

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