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ZB34 GS parts book #764501 02/04/19 6:53 pm
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Gordo in Comox Offline OP
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I am looking for the early parts books that have the ZB34 GS engine with the one piece alloy head. I have the 1949-52/3 book that has the one piece ZB33 iron head info but the only GS info is the late 1952 separate rocker box type engines. (BB engine forerunner). There is nothing about the ZB33A alloy engine option or the ZB 32/34 GS engine.

I need to order valve guides for what I believe is a 1951 ZB34GS engine and I do not want to assume that the iron ZB33 guides would work. I have the valves for this GS head and I can see that the later BB type valves have the same stem length and diam but the valve heads are a bit larger.. As well I am not sure about the guide outside diam that is needed for the 51 head.

Any early parts books info would be appreciated.


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Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #764505 02/04/19 7:19 pm
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Hi Gordo, I have a 1951/2 parts book.
The following part numbers are for the 500 goldstar.

valve guide inlet 65-1517
valve guide exhaust 65-1518
valve inlet 65-1352
valve exhaust 65-1353
valve spring outer 65-1249
valve spring inner 65-1259
split collar 15-1525 (in+ex)

The alloy head b34 uses the goldstar valves and guides but std b33 springs.
Seats and collars are the same for all.

Hope this helps,
Pat A.

Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #764506 02/04/19 7:36 pm
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Hello again.
I just found some info on the springs.

65-1249 outer spring
wire dia. .160"
outer dia. 1.540"
free length 2+ 3/16"
5+1/4 coils wound l.h.

65-1259 inner spring
wire dia .120"
outer dia 1.145"
free length 1+3/4"
6 coils wound r.h.

If you can find n.o.s. terry springs the code is 451.471.
They fit 350 and 500 goldstar 1949-53.
This info from a copy of terry springs own manual.

Pat A.

Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #764509 02/04/19 7:51 pm
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Gordo in Comox Offline OP
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Thanks Pat, that is great info. Is that a complete parts book for 51/52 you have including the part numbers for the various GS heads?

Gordo


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #764511 02/04/19 8:15 pm
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Originally Posted by Gordo in Comox
one piece alloy head... I need to order valve guides for what I believe is a 1951 ZB34GS
Gordo,, the 1949 parts book shows the one-piece alloy head and lists it as 65-1382 with fixed fittings for the Gold Star 500c.c. The inlet guide is listed as 65-1400 and the exhaust as 65-1401. It's good you didn't want to assume they are the same as the ZB33/34, because they are not.

The book shows two heads for the 350, trials and not-trials, but only one for the 500.

Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #764512 02/04/19 8:16 pm
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Hi Gordo, it is one of the thick books that cover all models for those years. At 376 pages I cant copy it.
I can give alloy head part numbers but I doubt that they will match up to castings.

cylinder head complete b31-32 65-1300
ditto b33-34 65-1572
ditto trials 350 goldstar 65-1300
ditto racing,clubmans,scrambles,grass track 350 65-1302
ditto gold star 500cc 65-1382

Is that any help? I feel sure this book will be available online somewhere.
Pat A.


Last edited by mr.moto; 02/04/19 8:32 pm. Reason: missed a word
Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #764516 02/04/19 8:42 pm
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Gordo in Comox Offline OP
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Thanks to both of you. I wonder what accounts for the different guide numbers between 49 and 51/52. Maybe different material. The head number makes sense as my head has 65-1383 in the casting.

The valves I got from the late John Gardner have no full part numbers. The exhaust has 'BSA G2 EX' on the face and the inlet just has "G&S 1345 SC" on the stem

Gordo


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Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #764518 02/04/19 8:58 pm
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Originally Posted by Gordo in Comox
I wonder what accounts for the different guide numbers between 49 and 50/51. Maybe different material.
I don't know the answer to that, but in your search for guides you might find it helpful to know the 1965 price list says to use 65-1597 and 65-1598 for -1400 and -1401, respectifvely.

Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #764525 02/04/19 9:42 pm
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MM: nice connection. I have those two for a BB34GS head. I should just get something made up using those as patterns before I put them into the BB head. I know that they would be correct for the stem size. I will compare the length to the old ZB guides.

Gordo


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: mr.moto] #764648 02/06/19 10:07 am
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Originally Posted by mr.moto
Hi Gordo, it is one of the thick books that cover all models for those years. At 376 pages I cant copy it.
I can give alloy head part numbers but I doubt that they will match up to castings.

cylinder head complete b31-32 65-1300
ditto b33-34 65-1572
ditto trials 350 goldstar 65-1300
ditto racing,clubmans,scrambles,grass track 350 65-1302
ditto gold star 500cc 65-1382

Is that any help? I feel sure this book will be available online somewhere.
Pat A.



Yes it has been uploaded to the A7-A10 forum
They uploaded 47, 48, 49 & 50

However these are all models books, not single model with exploded diagrams so you will need a later book for assembly order.

parts books


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Trevor
Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #764676 02/06/19 5:22 pm
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Thanks Trevor: That is a great resource site for any BSA fan and those 'all models' books are really something.

Gordo


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Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #764725 02/07/19 6:40 am
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Don't thank me I did not scan them I just knew they were there.
It takes a bit of getting used to and is a bit clumsy but it does highlight parts that were common across the range for any particular year.
We are helping a member getting a very rare B21 ( competition 250 ) back together and just the rear wheel set up took 5 pages by the time we had all the parts ( he was missing ) accounted for.
You really need to know how the bike goes together to use the all models parts books, and they need to be use with the owners handbooks which of course assumes everyone can read an engineering cross sectioned drawing.

The master price lists are the real gem because they cover the whole range over a long period so a parts change sticks out like a donkeys doodle.

David Brailey ran the Flat Tank e-zine for a long while then just vanished.
He put out a set of CD's with all of the parts books from 1912 on them in html which is a shame because they are 72dpi and do not print out very clearly.
But if you keep an eye out they pop up from time to time.
He gave us a really good deal on a bulk lot of them on the condition they were not to be copied .

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 02/07/19 6:46 am.

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Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: BSA_WM20] #765108 02/11/19 7:39 am
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Gordo,

I've rebuilt a '49 Goldie motor recently. The parts book says 65-1400 for inlet and 65-1402 for exhaust. On your '51, the books say 65-15-17 inlet and 65-1518 exhaust.

Great eh? Good luck finding original parts.

What I did was take the head and a new set of valves to a proper motorcycle machinist and he turned up a new set of phosphor bronze valve guides to fit (the originals were stuffed). Proper job.

Way to go.,
Mebbo

Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #765177 02/12/19 4:12 am
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Thanks Mebbo and all the other folks who have chimed in.

I am comparing the part number changes with the development in the Golland Goldie book. He talks about the change in the collet setup to cure stem breakage, different shapes and the improved material used to make the exhaust valve. I have a pair of the earlier valves but think that the improved bits just make more sense. Why re-learn the failure lessons first hand? My late 1952 ZB34 GS has these changes and as far as I can see those valves would fit in the earlier head. If I determine the guides will also work out I think that I will go that route as they seem to be available. I would need the groove type collets but I am sure I can find those somewhere.

In these photos the difference should be obvious, at least the top of the stem

Gordo

Early valves

[Linked Image]

1952 valves

[Linked Image]


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Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #765212 02/12/19 4:38 pm
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Originally Posted by Gordo in Comox
I am comparing the part number changes ...
The changes from ZB to late-ZB/BB to CB etc. can be thought of as part number changes as well, where in addition to smaller components the large castings (heads, crankcases, etc.) were "superseded by" improved ones. Those large changes are documented in the parts manuals, but even then the manuals only document the parts used at the time they were printed. Between those major changes were a number of smaller changes (e.g. updated valves and keepers/collets/cotters) that only are documented in lesser-known factory literature.

BSA Service Sheet No. 152 dated May 1952 describes the changes to the "valves, inner springs, top collars, split cotters and alteration of the valve guides" that were adopted on both the 350 and 500 starting with engine numbers -4001 "to minimize the possibility of valve stretch or breakage." In BSA terminology the narrower valve groove shown in the second photograph in Gordo's post takes a "'Bullock' type cotter"

Something for Gordo to pay attention to with his new valves is this service sheet notes that "on pre-1951 B34 and B32 Gold Star Machines, the inner valve springs will need replacing with Part No. 65-1259... to ensure that the valve springs do not become coil bound when the valve is fully open." In addition to the inner spring, the change in valve requires a shorter guide. The distance from the top of the guide to the bottom of the collar on the guide that seats against the head needs to be reduced to 13/32" unless the guide was made after August 1951.

Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #765216 02/12/19 5:26 pm
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MM: Who would have guessed that the trying to bring an early engine back to life would have so many pitfalls. However I do appreciate all the tips I am getting. Of course springs do not normally have part numbers on them but Pat earlier posted some spring data that could help me sort the bits.

The ref above to the 4000 series is interesting. Both engine sizes started in model year 52 as 4000 series engines with one piece heads so Aug 51 would be the beginning of these engines. In the spring of 52 the new separate rockerbox engines came out as 6000 (350) and 5000 (500) series engines. My head came on a 4000 series engine so the old guides in it should be the shorter guides for me to compare. I will look through the box of junk that came with it to see it there are any old springs to measure.

Gordo


The roadside repairs make for the best post ride stories.
Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #765218 02/12/19 5:57 pm
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Originally Posted by Gordo in Comox
MM: Who would have guessed that the trying to bring an early engine back to life would have so many pitfalls.
They're not 'pitfalls', they're 'educational opportunities'.

Service Sheet 175 dated June 1953 may be relevant as well: "The valve seat inserts fitted to the later B.32 Gold Star models, are pressed in and are an interference fit." ... "Earlier B.32 Gold Stars...have screwed-in valve seat inserts." It describes how to remove and replace each type, but doesn't give the cutoff between "earlier" and "later."

Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #765228 02/12/19 9:00 pm
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Hi Gordo,
Beware the fitting angle of the collets (keepers) to the top collar is different for each valve type?
Some Years ago I had a job in the workshop to sort out a bent inlet valve on a ZB34GS head
The replacement valve had the later "bullock" type groove, (I have not ever heard this description before ??)
My memory is not 100 % certain
Either I changed the top collar and collets to the later GS type or did I use A10 alloy head collets to work with the original top collar???????

John

Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: chaterlea25] #765262 02/13/19 2:32 am
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Originally Posted by chaterlea25
"bullock" type groove, (I have not ever heard this description before ??)
Like I said, rebuilding an old bike is full of 'educational opportunities'.

Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #765267 02/13/19 3:12 am
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MM, simplistic perhaps, but I've always assumed that the 'earlier' screwed-in valve seats were for ZB 32/34 engines with cast-in rocker boxes.

KW


No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
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Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Kerry W] #765297 02/13/19 4:29 pm
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Originally Posted by Kerry W
I've always assumed that the 'earlier' screwed-in valve seats were for ZB 32/34 engines with cast-in rocker boxes.
It's very likely you're right, but not mentioning an engine number in that document leaves just enough uncertainty to keep it interesting for someone restoring a ZB engine.

I found one mention of "Bulloc" keepers on line, but I don't know whether that is a misspelling or if "Bullock" is. It's interesting that such a tiny part has so many names: keepers/collets/cotters/locks/keys.

Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #765329 02/13/19 11:10 pm
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Etymologically speaking, and as everyone knows, a bullock is what Americans call a steer.

A ballock, on the other hand, in its plural form, is a synonym for a mess, a dog's dinner, a hash-up, a ballocks. As in, 'He made a ballocks of that valve job'.

I suspect some wag at BSA nicknamed the valve a 'ballocks', and the name stuck, if slightly modified. But we shall never know.



1949 BSA ZB34 'Bitsa'
1959 BSA DBD34 Catalina
1973 Norton Commando 850 R
1974 Norton Commando 850 R (I know, one too many)
1975 Honda TL250 Trials, a new addition to the family
1998 Montesa HRC Trials
2004 Ducati M1000ie
Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Magnetoman] #765341 02/14/19 3:37 am
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Originally Posted by Kerry W
I've always assumed that the 'earlier' screwed-in valve seats were for ZB 32/34 engines with cast-in rocker boxes.
It's very likely you're right, but not mentioning an engine number in that document leaves just enough uncertainty to keep it interesting for someone restoring a ZB engine.

I found one mention of "Bulloc" keepers on line, but I don't know whether that is a misspelling or if "Bullock" is. It's interesting that such a tiny part has so many names: keepers/collets/cotters/locks/keys.


Why,
The Poms would not use the same name as the Frogs.
The Frogs will not use the same name as the Krauts
The the Yanks will use a different name just because they are Americans.

A friend was looking for a bottom tap, which I was taught was a Plug ( Taper-Intermediate-Plug )
My Australian tap sets are marked the same.
However the USA sets are marked Taper-Plug-Bottom.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 02/16/19 3:08 am.

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Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #765354 02/14/19 10:21 am
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Slightly off topic, but to extend the broad brush stroke of sterotyping.. a rough synopsis of the cultural differences in the birth of engineering :

If you wanted to invent a new machine to drive a 2 ounce peg into a hole, you would go to the British for the the initial idea and concept of how to do it- they would go to BSA make a machine using just enough material to carry out the task, in a material which would have 1% more tensile strength that was needed and would be cut from an ingot leaving 1% waste. - It would drive the peg using a mechanised drift of just enough mass to outweigh the peg.

The Germans would take this idea and make it out of titanium and unobtanium - it would be a fantastic machine but would cost more than a life - and take 5 years to deliver

The Italians would send it to a design house and make a beautiful Greco- Roman portico frame using plated columns and it would wear out after 5 uses

The French would give the idea to Citroen- who would create a machine where the 2 ton milling base is driven into the 2 ounce peg- using a 10 ton crane

The Japanese would take the British design- minaturise it - sort out the wearing parts and nay faults - send it across the world - with no warranty returns

Re: ZB34 GS parts book [Re: Gordo in Comox] #765356 02/14/19 12:43 pm
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. . . and the americans would outsource the idea to the chinese, who would first try to make it out of bamboo, then would deliver an inexpensive and adequate tool back to the americans, who would buy it by the thousands and complain that american machine tool manufacturers were going out of business.


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