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A65 No Oil Flow #764957
02/09/19 4:06 pm
02/09/19 4:06 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 504
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
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nert Online content OP
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just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
I am exhausted reading oil pressure threads, and found no Joy.
I just rebuilt my 1966 A65L engine. Main bush clearance rod bearings, end play all good and properly fitted. Before fitting the oil pump, I took an old style oil can put the tip in the hole and pumped oil through the engine. Saw the oil weeping around the rods, and even out the oil in the left connecting rod. Very pleased. I oiled up the pump, turned it by hand to lube the pump internally. Finished the rebuild and installed the engine. I filled the external oil filter with oil. Yes its on the return side. I dumped .5qt of oil down through the head liberally coating the rockers, and adding "splash" oil to the sump for startup. Kicking through many times with out spark plugs, I had oil returning to the tank. I was "pumped"

Spark plugs back in, started the engine, oil flowing back to the tank, for a little while only!!! Probably just the remaining oil already in the sump. Still running, to my horror, no new oil coming back, oil tank is cold, 1000 rpm, idle, what ever speed no oil coming back. I turned off the engine deeply depressed thinking about what damage have I done to all my new tight bearing parts, and why am i not circulating oil.

If it was a stuck oil pressure relieve valve, I would still show flow, as the oil would go right to the sump. Same goes with improper clearances, if that was the case, I would still have oil filling up the sump. I know the return side of the pump works even at kick over speed.The tach works so I know the pump is spinning.

Is it even possible to install the ball and spring under the oil pump "wrong" somehow, without doing physical damage? With out having the engine apart, and following the oil holes, I cant understand what the ball is doing, or where it is, in relation to the "oil in", "oil out" of the pump ports. If the ball is stuck, would that prevent oil from getting to the pump? Perhaps someone could draw a pump and ball schematic? My Bsa manual doesnt show that kind of detail. What testing can I do with out disassembly of the primary side? Should I be able blow air through the oil feed line through the oil hose block junction, or apply vacuum. It seems like I am not getting oil to the pump. The hoses are connected to the tank properly.

thank you


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Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #764959
02/09/19 4:49 pm
02/09/19 4:49 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,287
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Take the sump cover off and place a beaker/baking tray beneath it. That will confirm oil coming round the motor.

Further more. Have you see how much oil is in the sump?


beerchug
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #764962
02/09/19 5:10 pm
02/09/19 5:10 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 504
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
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nert Online content OP
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Allan
With the engine running? I suppose I can try that..
That will confirm only what I suspect. There is no oil in the sump, there is no oil being removed from the tank. I know that when there is oil in the sump, the oil return section of the pump does return it to the tank. Not wanting to be argumentative, but too me, the problem is, I am not getting oil in the sump


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #764963
02/09/19 5:49 pm
02/09/19 5:49 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,972
ca, us
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DMadigan Online content
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The check ball at the pump faces the pump with the spring underneath. It is on the output side. if it were the wrong was around I think you would feel resistance in the kickstart.
You can take off the oil union (actually just loosen because the frame is in the way) to be sure there is no blockage in the line.
You can take out the OPRV to see if the pump is working.

Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #764964
02/09/19 5:50 pm
02/09/19 5:50 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,741
scotland
triton thrasher Offline
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Remove the oil pressure relief valve.

Take the spark plugs out.

Turn the engine over with the kickstart and see if oil is reaching hole you took the relief valve out of.

Edit: as DM said.

Last edited by triton thrasher; 02/09/19 5:52 pm.

Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #764968
02/09/19 6:27 pm
02/09/19 6:27 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,708
Springfield Nebraska
Richrd Offline
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you say that you checked everything before starting the bike and had good flow (after priming with oil can). Are you sure that you are getting oil from the tank to the pump? Blockage in the feed line?


Rich (member ThreeMustGetBeers)
"It's not always about going fast. Sometimes it's nice to slow down" (Wendy E.2016)

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Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #764972
02/09/19 6:40 pm
02/09/19 6:40 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,347
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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"Before fitting the oil pump, I took an old style oil can put the tip in the hole and pumped oil through the engine. Saw the oil weeping around the rods, and even out the oil in the left connecting rod. Very pleased. I oiled up the pump, turned it by hand to lube the pump internally. Finished the rebuild and installed the engine. I filled the external oil filter with oil. Yes its on the return side. I dumped .5qt of oil down through the head liberally coating the rockers, and adding "splash" oil to the sump for startup. Kicking through many times with out spark plugs, I had oil returning to the tank. I was "pumped""

No mention of oil tank level, the feed side of the pump needs a head of oil to prime correctly. Usually filling the tank and leaving overnight will do.
The OPRV removal to check flow or not seems like a good start.Some folks fitting new SRM pumps have found that the oil tank needs to be pressurised to push oil and air through the pump, otherwise they are so well sealed they churn in an air bubble when first filled..


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: gavin eisler] #764976
02/09/19 7:30 pm
02/09/19 7:30 pm
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Posts: 504
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nert Online content OP
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Oil level is on the stick, not quite filled, because I had dumped oil in the sump from the head for start up, I wanted the static oil areas to all work themselves out. The OPRV is sealing nicely. I placed shop air in the same hole prior to putting the oil can pump in. and air was flowing very well. Had some air leakage past the OPRV through the relief port into the sump area. I removed and serviced the valve and reinstalled it. This time, I had no air leakage past the OPRV relief into the sump. I was pleased with that performance as well. The only thing I didn't do, was to drive the oil pump with a drill before assembly. A test, I wont fail to practice should I have to tear this down again.
I agree, the best place to start is with removal of the OPR valve.
Its going to be a long weekend, as I wont see the bike again until Monday afternoon. I cant get this out of my head.


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #764988
02/09/19 9:18 pm
02/09/19 9:18 pm
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 456
Au
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markoz Offline
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Au
Start at the oil can and work your way down (easiest first) you know your pump is working as you established that in your pre start checks and its return of .5. Make sure hoses are correct and no airlock or blockage from loose gasket glue or gunk.

Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #764992
02/09/19 9:46 pm
02/09/19 9:46 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 956
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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Some random thoughts and questions:-
- what type of oil pump is being used, is it an alloy bodied or iron type? The later iron type is better than the earlier alloy version although the last alloy pumps stamped "DD" were fine.
- what kind of OPRV are you using, ball or piston type?
- it may be that you have a bad oil leak, possibly between the pump and crankcase or between the pump top and bottom end plates.
- also, it could be that the pump drive is compromised, maybe the worm on the crank is loose or the pump drive shaft is broken.

I would start by undoing the oil feed pipe from the tank and checking if oil comes out, it could be that you have an airlock or the tank filter outlets are misaligned with the tank.

If oil is flowing then undo the OPRV as suggested and see if oil comes out whilst kicking the engine over.

Next, I would take off the inner timing cover and spin the pump over using a cordless drill using a rubber tube attached to the tacho drive. This should reveal any serious leaks and whether the pump is operating or not.

For info, the anti drain ball valve is fitted behind the pump using the top right hand hole in the crankcases. The ball bearing seats against the pump and the spring behind it. The idea is that the ball bearing stops any oil from the feed side draining into the sump when the engine is stopped. If you fitted it the other way around you wouldn't get any oil flow as the outlet buried in the crankcase hole would be obscured.

Heres a link showing how the ball and spring are fitted when using the SRM pump, this is exactly the same when using the standard pump, see This Link

Last edited by gunner; 02/09/19 9:57 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #764998
02/09/19 10:35 pm
02/09/19 10:35 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 504
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
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nert Online content OP
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These thoughts and questions are well thought out, as the others before you have presented. We are fortunate to have great talent and experience on this forum.

-It is an SRM oil pump.
-Ball type OPRV, air tested, and oil pressure tested with a hand oil pump while installed
-a bad oil leak at the pump or end plates would be putting oil into the sump, however, by problem is I am not getting oil in the sump. Its not really a matter of low oil pressure, its more no oil flow.
-The worm and crank nut is tight, torqued, not that it couldn't be loose because of ??, but the worm gear threads on to the crank in the direction of "tight", so it cant be slipping
-the tach is working, I am leaning towards the pump drive shaft not being broken, plus south of the tach drive to the other end of the pump, the sump return part of the pump was working when kicking over, and when first started, due to the .5 quart I dumped in the sump.
-I'm pretty sure I installed the ball properly, as the engine case was on its side, and I remember balancing the ball on the spring, while installing the pump body. However, I am getting old, soooo, can the ball and spring possibly be installed anyway except the proper way, and still allow the pump body to be placed into position and mounted by hand, not using fasteners to draw it into place? As it is an SRM pump, I have the document with my BSA service manual. But having a problem like this, I begin to doubt and question everything I believed I did properly, several times before. I have rebuilt a few A65's since 1970


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #765000
02/09/19 10:43 pm
02/09/19 10:43 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 260
Duesseldorf/Germany
Phil in Germany Offline
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Duesseldorf/Germany
Originally Posted by nert
...The hoses are connected to the tank properly….

Sorry for asking a rather dumb question: what does 'properly connected' mean? Oil line properly fixed or properly crossed over? Oil tank's outside spigot goes onto inside pipe on the oil manifold. You are sure you crossed the oil lines according to the manual?

I hope you can sort it.

Cheers!

Ph.


Best regards
Phil
Duesseldorf/Germany
'56 DB 34
'62 A 65 Star (disassembled)
'69 A 65 Lightning
'71 A 65 Firebird
'75 T 160
'84 Yamaha SR 500
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #765001
02/09/19 10:49 pm
02/09/19 10:49 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
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NickL Online content
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I have seen instances of the pump's internal drive from the worm section to the first gear, shear off.
this is due to large pieces of debris being sucked up into the pump and seizing/jamming it, that's why it's important
to check the pump using a drill or even by filling and testing both sections by hand.
I don't think this is the case here, i would use a pressure oil can to prime the pump in situ with the timing cover
removed and the pump spun with a piece of tube on a variable speed drill and see.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #765005
02/09/19 11:21 pm
02/09/19 11:21 pm
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just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
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nert Online content OP
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Phil
Yes, always good to make sure the definition of ones word agree with another's same word definition. The hoses are crossed. I didn't disconnect them during the rebuild. I unbolted the flange union, flushed them with solvent and blew them out with shop air.

NickL
I filled the pump with oil and turned by hand, in both directions before mounting. I did not do the drill drive proof before final assembly. At the time, didn't think I needed to. Air test was good, pumping through galley with hand held oil pump was good, oil pump pumped oil in my hand before mounting. I would like to do as much testing as possible, before removing the primary. To me, Its a big deal, trans oil, points plate and timing advance, primary gasket. I spent a lot of time making sure it was all perfect on the bench. To do it again laying on the ground may not yield the same results.


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #765007
02/09/19 11:39 pm
02/09/19 11:39 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,347
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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Since it is an SRM pump and they seal very well, and you have built these before so you put the spring in the top right case hole and the ball against the pump, try putting a little air pressure ( 5 psi or so) into the oil tank breather this will drive oil through the feed side of the pump hopefully displacing any air trapped within. Gear pumps take an age to prime if they have air in the chamber. This has helped others before.
I think the failure mechanism goes like this, new pumps installed , new lines fresh oil, the oil feed line is roughly a J shape to the pump, as the tank is filled air left in the lines is pushed into the short leg of the J where the pump sits on the end, normally BSA oil pumps are loose enough to vent this air round the sloppy tolerances, however SRM pumps are made to far tighter specs, now the air bubble needs help to get through, a fresh pump and tight bearing clearances means the pump feed side is unable to generate any pressure while it has air around it, a little extra head on the oil tank from the shop air will help push this through.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 02/09/19 11:46 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #765008
02/09/19 11:46 pm
02/09/19 11:46 pm
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Well if the return is working and the feed isn't, and you're sure the Inlet tree, Pump, gasket, anti wet sump valve, system is all good.

Take the relief valve out and kick it over with no plugs in until oil comes out.

Remove the oil feed line at the tank and pump oil with a pressure can into the pump.

Take the relief valve out and kick it over with no plugs in until oil comes out.

Repeat as required................................It must be an air lock?


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #765009
02/09/19 11:55 pm
02/09/19 11:55 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 956
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
Having an SRM pump in place is good news so I doubt it's a pump problem.

Another question is oil viscosity, looking at your location it seems like winter so hopefully you are using a 20W50 or similar. If you are using something like straight 50 weight oil then this will flow like treacle in cold conditions and wont help with priming the oil pump.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #765010
02/09/19 11:57 pm
02/09/19 11:57 pm
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Posts: 504
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
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nert Online content OP
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I HOPE it is an air lock. I will tear in to it Monday evening after work.
But, as I tell my mechanics on the shop floor, "hoping don't make it so". (we don't work on motorcycles there, diesel's and ambulances)
The shop owner is kind enough to let me work on my personal stuff after hours.

Last edited by nert; 02/10/19 12:12 am.

keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #765012
02/10/19 12:14 am
02/10/19 12:14 am
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 504
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
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nert Online content OP
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Yes Sir, its 20w50 motorcycle oil. I keep the shop at 60 degrees. I plan to replace the 20w50 with 20w50 full synthetic after 500 miles.


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #765032
02/10/19 8:15 am
02/10/19 8:15 am
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 456
Au
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markoz Offline
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Phil, dont be sorry for asking a dumb question

Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #765048
02/10/19 2:27 pm
02/10/19 2:27 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,287
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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On the SRM pump, when I first installed mine I could push oil through it with an oil can, on subsequent tear downs I have found the pump doesn't push oil past....

I build my motors with competition assembly lube, this gives protection to the journals until fresh oil washes it away. Priming the bike on the kickstarter is virtually impossible and you wear both legs out before any oil comes through, yet put the plugs back in and let it start up for a couple of seconds and the pump spins fast enough to pull the oil through, soon as its visible at the place where the OPRV belongs I kill the engine.

I mentioned removing the sump cover as I had assumed from your text that you had already established oil going from the tank to the rods. (My bad)...

By placing a beaker beneath the sump you can then place a tube to the pick up pipe and see that not only is oil going into the beaker but there is sufficient suction to take it from the sump back to the tank...


Out of curiosity, what solvent did you use in the rubber pipes, many rubbers are not impervious to solvent and will delaminate them.


beerchug
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: gavin eisler] #765074
02/10/19 8:34 pm
02/10/19 8:34 pm
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 73
Castleford , West Yorkshire Un...
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Ken Rowark Offline
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I would go with gavin on this one, it works for me on every oil change

Last edited by Ken Rowark; 02/10/19 8:39 pm.
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #765079
02/10/19 10:10 pm
02/10/19 10:10 pm
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Posts: 504
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
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nert Online content OP
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Ken
You have this problem on every oil change?
It certainly easy enough to do and least intrusive. The vent in the oil tank wont be an issue?


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #765080
02/10/19 10:24 pm
02/10/19 10:24 pm
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NickL Online content
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Originally Posted by nert
Ken
You have this problem on every oil change?
It certainly easy enough to do and least intrusive. The vent in the oil tank wont be an issue?


He may do if he drains all the oil lines, most people don't bother.

I'd sell my bloody old heaps if i had to go through all that when i changed the oil..........................


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: A65 No Oil Flow [Re: nert] #765087
02/11/19 12:37 am
02/11/19 12:37 am
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Posts: 266
Monclova
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Monclova
Oh, an SRM pump. I would for sure unless you find a error in hook up take the covers off and check pump as explained with a piece of oil line hooked to a drill. Did you make sure the O rings are the BSA correct style in the oil pipe? Sometimes if you attempt to use a hardware purchase o ring it will not seal correctly. It will not leak out of the junction but lets air by . But you should have something unless as some have said it is air locked. I argued a SRM point with many on this page regarding an oil pump that was not up to standards. They did repair it and it is fine now but a bad one can slip by. I would check the pump asap. How long was it running and did you have oil pressure? Do you have a service gauge that you can hook up to see? If its not returning but pumping it in it will wet sump fairly quick, but at least it has pressure to the throws. Yes, I know wet sumping is hard on them too, but …. Good luck

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